Mark of the Beast

[Robert F. Smith]

20 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Do you believe that Bill Gates is going to put microchips that will control you into the coronavirus vaccine and that this is the mark of the beast?

Those would be nanochips.

[3DOP]

21 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Does any one else think it is literal?

Hi Rod.

Yes, I think the mark that you speak of is literal.

The translation that I use has the word, character instead of mark. That it be literal does not require that the mark/character be visible and known to men. I do hold that it is literal and voluntarily received. It is possible, but I think unlikely, that the mark/character is visible except by heaven (God and His Saints and Holy Angels, and perhaps the devil and his demons). Here is the translation I use: "If any man shall adore the beast and his image, and receive his character in his forehead, or in his hand..." (Rev. 14:9)

Interestingly, you might recall that there is some kind of identifier that is also given in the forehead to God's servants as well (Rev. 7:3 and 9:4). The Catholic Church uses the word "mark" to express an invisible character which is received in the soul through certain Sacraments. Those who have been baptized, confirmed or receive major orders, have these permanent "marks" on their soul which cannot be removed. The marks do not save, cannot be repeated, is invisible to those in their mortal bodies, and follows the soul in to its eternity where it will be presumably be seen by all.   

[InCognitus]

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Those would be nanochips.

But those kinds of details don't really matter to the people passing around the stories.  And he should change his company name, or set up a new company to do the nanochips (Nanosoft?).  

Part of that story comes from the use of quantum-dot tattoos, as developed by Rice University:   Quantum-dot tattoos hold vaccination record.  

[3DOP]

17 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Evangelicals seem to love to stir up all sorts of speculation as if they have the power of God to understand. No, the mark of the beast has nothing to do with vaccinations - it is a spiritual thing with a literal aspect to it. If a vaccination for Covid 19 does come out, evangelicals will rally against it to their own demise. Most Protestants have been as wrong about biblical interpretation as Catholics have. There is no such thing as "the Antichrist." That seems to be a Protestant thing that early Protestants labelled the Roman pontiff with. However, now they claim to us that there never was an apostasy..... go figure.... before them Christianity was led by "the Antichrist" but there never was an apostasy! Nowhere does scripture warn against "the Antichrist." There have been many antichrists. Using strict biblical interpretation, however, antichrists deny the Son of God. This the Roman pontiff does not do. Typically, Protestants seem to confuse the false prophet of Revelation with "the antichrist." Can the Roman pontiff be the false prophet of Revelation. WIth pre-apologies to my Catholic friends, yes, he can, but he is not even an antichrist much less "the antichrist." Is it the end of the world? No. It is just the beginning of the seventh seal or the seventh and last millennium of the temporal history of the earth. It is also the beginning of the great day of trouble spoken of by Daniel the prophet - which I might add the Protestants and Catholics get wrong.

Those who worship the beast “receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads.” Sometimes the truth "hurts." From a Hebrew perspective, this seems to come from the ancient Hebrew character for Tav, which was the character of a cross shape. This changed when Hebrew adopted the Aramaic forms for its letters. The meaning the Tav character carried with it was sign or mark. The mark is the sign of a covenant ie the covenant of the beast of revelation. I attended a Catholic school for 4 years. There are things Catholics are asked to do to recognize the authority of the Roman pontiff. There is also a rite in which the forehead is marked with a cross shape with ashes. I am not being mean here. I genuinely like most Catholics. I am just noting here what is - this will make me unpopular. I am not going to win any popularity contest here. That is for sure. You asked a question. I am answering it with all soberness. Why is the pontiff the recipient of this notoriety? Because his teachings of the doctrines of the Trinity perverted the Way. That is the most basic point of it at least.

Beasts in the scriptures are typically countries or kingdoms. See Daniel 7. Note Revelation speaks of the kingdom of the beast. See Rev 16:10

Rev Testament, hi.

I would ask you what evidence shows that the mark of the beast is a sign of the Cross, shaped like the Hebrew character for Thau.

On the contrary, in the book of Ezekiel, we find this character on the forehead to be a highly favorable sign. The context is about a chastisement that is coming on a society that has turned from God and those who receive the mark of the Thau, or sign of the cross, are to be protected. I include a comment about the Hebrew letter that you might find interesting. The comment is bolded. From Ezekiel 9: 

[4] "And the Lord said to him: Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem: and mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof. [5] And to the others he said in my hearing: Go ye after him through the city, and strike: let not your eyes spare, nor be ye moved with pity.

[4] "Mark Thau": Thau, or Tau, is the last letter in the Hebrew alphabet, and signifies a sign, or a mark; which is the reason why some translators render this place set a mark, or mark a mark without specifying what this mark was. But St. Jerome, and other interpreters, conclude it was the form of the letter Thau, which in the ancient Hebrew character, was the form of a cross.

[6] Utterly destroy old and young, maidens, children and women: but upon whomsoever you shall see Thau, kill him not, and begin ye at my sanctuary. So they began at the ancient men who were before the house."

Catholics have interpreted this as being a symbol for those faithful in Ezekiel's time, who did not know that it was the future Cross of Christ that would save them. In the Old Testament those who did not receive the sign of the Cross were destroyed. With the coming of the New Testament, the sign of the Cross is still necessary, but much more clearly understood. It is a pious and worthy sign of our attachment to Him who paid for our sins. Who do you think is pleased when Catholics, who make the sign of the Cross, before they ask God's blessing on meals at home, are timid about doing the same thing at work or a restaurant? Would the devil be displeased that they aren't making the mark of the beast on themselves like they do at home? Or would God be displeased that they are embarrassed of identifying themselves publicly as followers of their Redeemer. When do you think Ezekiel's Thau, became the sign of attachment to the enemies of Christ? 

As for being unpopular, I thank you for opening your mind to us. No hard feelings. On the contrary, all my best wishes to you for a frankness which I must see as misguided, but with good intention.

Rory

[InCognitus]

2 hours ago, 3DOP said:

Hi Rod.

Yes, I think the mark that you speak of is literal.

The translation that I use has the word, character instead of mark. That it be literal does not require that the mark/character be visible and known to men. I do hold that it is literal and voluntarily received. It is possible, but I think unlikely, that the mark/character is visible except by heaven (God and His Saints and Holy Angels, and perhaps the devil and his demons). Here is the translation I use: "If any man shall adore the beast and his image, and receive his character in his forehead, or in his hand..." (Rev. 14:9)

Interestingly, you might recall that there is some kind of identifier that is also given in the forehead to God's servants as well (Rev. 7:3 and 9:4). The Catholic Church uses the word "mark" to express an invisible character which is received in the soul through certain Sacraments. Those who have been baptized, confirmed or receive major orders, have these permanent "marks" on their soul which cannot be removed. The marks do not save, cannot be repeated, is invisible to those in their mortal bodies, and follows the soul in to its eternity where it will be presumably be seen by all.   

While I agree with you that the Greek word in question seems to indicate a literal mark (cháragma is used in other places like the Septuagint version of 3 Maccabees 2:29, referring to people being literally branded with the ivy-leaf symbol of Dionysus, or in Acts 17:29 referring to graven images), and I am open to the possibility that it may be literal.  But there are other aspects of the book of Revelation and its context that lead me to think the mark may be symbolic, given that the book itself is highly symbolic.   For example, Revelation chapter 19 talks about the "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS" coming on a "white horse" with his armies (all riding upon "white horses"), and the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, gather to make war against him.  Then, in verses 17 and 18 it says:

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." (Revelation 19:17-18).

My point here is that the if we just consider the word "horse" out of its context, we would say that a horse is a horse of course of course (to pay a tribute to Mr. Ed).  A horse is a literal animal.  But would we really expect the kings of the earth, in a future event at the time of the return of the "King of kings", to be sitting on literal horses in battle?  How many horses are used in battle these days?  Will there be a plague coming that kills off all the tanks, jeeps, air craft carriers, jet airplanes, and other vehicles of war, and the armies are forced to ride horses again?  Obviously that's a rhetorical question, but that's my thinking on taking words at their face value out of contexts.  And I'm not saying you are taking a word out of context, but only that we really need to consider the genre of the book before drawing definite conclusions about what is literal and what is not.

Edited May 17, 2020 by InCognitus

[rodheadlee]

I personally think it is a computer chip injected into a person to ID them. The reason will be too much computer hacking of financial institutions and personal bank accounts. You will need this ID chip to buy, sell, get to your online bank account. It will attempt to get rid of the black market among other things.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I personally think it is a computer chip injected into a person to ID them. The reason will be too much computer hacking of financial institutions and personal bank accounts. You will need this ID chip to buy, sell, get to your online bank account. It will attempt to get rid of the black market among other things.

I would be surprised. So far as soon as we have one form of security tech, there are quickly ways to break it. That would be a big investment that would be quickly obsolete. I don’t think they could build enough confidence at this point to have some permanentmy inserted device...especially in the conspiracy theory world we currently live in. Now wearing a watch band, fit bit or something external, that makes life easier pain free and can easily be upgraded, because having the latest thing is a big motivator these days...that I can see.

[The Nehor]

On 5/15/2020 at 8:13 PM, MiserereNobis said:

Do you believe that Bill Gates is going to put microchips that will control you into the coronavirus vaccine and that this is the mark of the beast?

The problem with these kinds of conspiracy theories is they make no sense. If you had the ability to inject little robots that somehow last forever (what powers them?) why would you need a fake pandemic to deliver them? If you can control an entire vaccination program why not put it in the measles vaccine? These junky theories involve a vast conspiracy of virtually unlimited power but somehow they always need the clumsiest mechanisms to get anything done and they never actually do anything.

Also, if such an organization were in control why is everything so crazy?

Edited May 17, 2020 by The Nehor

[Meadowchik]

For a post-religious person who is also an aspiring skeptic, conspiracy theories remind me that wacky ideas are everywhere. Rationality is a process, not membership in a group or a social movement alone.

[rodheadlee]

17 hours ago, Calm said:

I would be surprised. So far as soon as we have one form of security tech, there are quickly ways to break it. That would be a big investment that would be quickly obsolete. I don’t think they could build enough confidence at this point to have some permanently inserted device...especially in the conspiracy theory world we currently live in. Now wearing a watch band, fit bit or something external, that makes life easier pain free and can easily be upgraded, because having the latest thing is a big motivator these days that I can see.

I'm thinking of something along the lines of the AVID chip that we have put in our cats to locate them. I don't think it will have anything to do with the virus.

[3DOP]

18 hours ago, InCognitus said:

While I agree with you that the Greek word in question seems to indicate a literal mark (cháragma is used in other places like the Septuagint version of 3 Maccabees 2:29, referring to people being literally branded with the ivy-leaf symbol of Dionysus, or in Acts 17:29 referring to graven images), and I am open to the possibility that it may be literal.  But there are other aspects of the book of Revelation and its context that lead me to think the mark may be symbolic, given that the book itself is highly symbolic.   For example, Revelation chapter 19 talks about the "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS" coming on a "white horse" with his armies (all riding upon "white horses"), and the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, gather to make war against him.  Then, in verses 17 and 18 it says:

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;  That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." (Revelation 19:17-18).

My point here is that the if we just consider the word "horse" out of its context, we would say that a horse is a horse of course of course (to pay a tribute to Mr. Ed).  A horse is a literal animal.  But would we really expect the kings of the earth, in a future event at the time of the return of the "King of kings", to be sitting on literal horses in battle?  How many horses are used in battle these days?  Will there be a plague coming that kills off all the tanks, jeeps, air craft carriers, jet airplanes, and other vehicles of war, and the armies are forced to ride horses again?  Obviously that's a rhetorical question, but that's my thinking on taking words at their face value out of contexts.  And I'm not saying you are taking a word out of context, but only that we really need to consider the genre of the book before drawing definite conclusions about what is literal and what is not.

I agree InCognitus, especially with this: "...we really need to consider the genre of the book before drawing definite conclusions about what is literal and what is not."

I wanted to let Rodheadlee know that I appreciated his post and was compelled to answer in the affirmative when he asked if anyone else held that it was a literal mark. I tend to hold that position. Perhaps I was too strong in my wording. I find it to be a reasonable speculation at the least, and compatible with my own tradition. There are a wide variety of clever interpretations of the Apocalypse, or Book of Revelation, that cannot all be true. My tradition seems to frown on definite teachings regarding the book, and so the Catholic Church, except for condemnation of a particular definite teaching, chiliasm, (a literal reign of Christ on earth for a thousand years), has refrained from offering an outline of how it all plays out.

 3DOP

Edited May 17, 2020 by 3DOP

[InCognitus]

6 hours ago, 3DOP said:

I agree InCognitus, especially with this: "...we really need to consider the genre of the book before drawing definite conclusions about what is literal and what is not."

I wanted to let Rodheadlee know that I appreciated his post and was compelled to answer in the affirmative when he asked if anyone else held that it was a literal mark. I tend to hold that position. Perhaps I was too strong in my wording. I find it to be a reasonable speculation at the least, and compatible with my own tradition. There are a wide variety of clever interpretations of the Apocalypse, or Book of Revelation, that cannot all be true. My tradition seems to frown on definite teachings regarding the book, and so the Catholic Church, except for condemnation of a particular definite teaching, chiliasm, (a literal reign of Christ on earth for a thousand years), has refrained from offering an outline of how it all plays out.

 3DOP

I understand your purpose, and I apologize if I came across as trying dismiss your opinion.  I just wanted to stress a guarded approach to any literal interpretation of the book's contents, even though I'm also open to some of it being literal.  I hope, for example, that Jesus and his armies really do come back riding on literal white horses, because that would be really really cool!

Edited May 18, 2020 by InCognitus

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

For a post-religious person who is also an aspiring skeptic, conspiracy theories remind me that wacky ideas are everywhere. Rationality is a process, not membership in a group or a social movement alone.

The best advice I ever got about skepticism is to be equal opportunity with it. Be especially skeptical of the stuff you like. If someone is telling you what you want to hear be wary. Also sometimes be skeptical of a lot of generally held skepticism.

[The Nehor]

18 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

I'm thinking of something along the lines of the AVID chip that we have put in our cats to locate them. I don't think it will have anything to do with the virus.

While there would be some financial soundness in the idea it is a little worrying how crime would evolve if they needed something extracted from your body to pull off financial shenanigans. It would also be difficult to keep securely updated. There is also the question of how to power it. A battery can only last so long. The pet chips only have to be read. It is not a huge deal there because there is no big rush to counterfeit a fake chip. I suppose the implant could function as a passcard getting into a building but it would not be hard to cheat. You would still want a PIN number or something to verify.

[Meadowchik]

20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The best advice I ever got about skepticism is to be equal opportunity with it. Be especially skeptical of the stuff you like. If someone is telling you what you want to hear be wary. Also sometimes be skeptical of a lot of generally held skepticism.

Yup.

[InCognitus]

I’m concerned that this whole “beast” thing, coupled with what’s going on in the world, is feeding a monster that has been around for quite a while, and it’s getting bigger and bigger (perhaps THAT is the real “beast”).  I don’t know if the situation is causing some people to become more gullible, but this is creating a market for the kind of stories that the end-times speculation thrives upon.   And it can be quite dangerous.  

Recently, at least two Christian friends that I know online have told me that they will not be getting a COVID-19 vaccination (if and when they ever come out with one) because they “know” it will be the one-world government’s way of embedding chips in them and they are associating this with the mark of the beast.  Of course I always ask them for sources when they tell me stuff like this.  Generally they say “google it” (as if that would always give me accurate and reliable information).  In this case I pressed them for specifics and they gave me a couple of unconnected sources that contained some elements of their story, but nothing that added up completely to what they were saying.

And then last week they told me that the prime minister of Israel was planning to embed microchips in people to enforce social distancing, starting with the children going back to school.  The source of their story was the Breaking Israel News website, in this article:    Israelis who were ‘Forced to Microchip by Government’ Warn Against Netanyahu’s Plan

This web site presents itself as a “News” source, and it pivots around an actual press conference that is linked to the article.   The article begins:   “Last week, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu may have inadvertently let a nefarious cat out of the bag. In a national address discussing the lifting of health ministry regulations, Netanyahu spoke for about a minute about a plan to inject distance censors into children that beep when they violate social distancing orders.”   Note that the headline on the article mentions "microchips", but here it says there are plans to "inject distance censors".

The source of this information is linked in the article, and found in a Youtube video of a May 4th press conference with Prime Minister Netanyahu, but the audio is all in Hebrew with no translation provided.  (Side note:  Kudos to the developers of the BYU Translator iPhone app.   That app did a fairly decent job of translating parts of the video into English for me.  Even though I knew the translation wasn’t precise, it gave me enough context to know that I was in the right place in the video and the translation confirmed some of the other sources that I found).  Apparently Netanyahu was talking about using “sensors” like we use in our cars, to detect proximity to other objects. 

Another source I found expresses concern over how his comments are being misused:  Why Does Netanyahu Want to Microchip Our Kids?

Quote

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu last week created an uproar when he publicly endorsed the idea of equipping Israeli children with “microchips.” Most upset by the notion were Orthodox and Messianic Jews, the two sectors of Israeli society most inclined to view current events like this through a biblical and prophetic lens.

The word Netanyahu actually used in Hebrew was “sensors.” At last Monday’s press briefing, he said:

“I spoke with our heads of technology in order to find measures Israel is good at, such as sensors. For instance, every person, every kid – I want it on kids first – would have a sensor that would sound an alarm when you get too close, like the ones on cars.”

In other words, Israeli children would carry sensors in one form or another to aid in social distancing as they returned to school.

Israeli experts quickly dismissed the idea as impractical. But that wasn’t the story that got everyone’s attention.

Of much greater concern to Bible-believing Jews and Christian supporters of Israel was the perceived prophetic implication of Netanyahu’s suggestion.

Sensor or microchip?

Again, Netanyahu did not use the Hebrew word for microchip, שבב – “sh’vav.” He used the word for sensor, חיישן – “chaishan.”

Even so, most media outlets, in both Hebrew and English, chose to adjust the prime ministers words in order to claim he wants to “microchip our children.” It’s a bit of a stretch given the religious connotations carried by the notion of “microchipping” someone.

Netanyahu didn’t go into great detail, but he almost certainly was not talking about embedding sensors under our children’s flesh. Nevertheless, comparisons were immediately drawn between his suggestion and claims that Bill Gates wants to microchip American citizens in order to more easily identify them and even track their movements.

Now back to the Breaking Israel News website article, to further sell their story it also quotes heavily from a Facebook page webcast show (all spoken in Hebrew), completely unrelated to the press conference source, hosted by Gai Tal and former real-estate celebrity broker Inbal Or, and in the video they “interview several women who claim to have been micro-chipped by government intelligence forces”, and Or herself says she was also micro-chipped at one point.

Quote

According to Or, ‘the chip is about a half centimeter in size.’  She adds that those behind it are the Mossad (Israeli intelligence services) and the Shabak (Israel’s NSA/FBI). According to Or, the Free Masons and New World Order are giving them the orders from the top.

Nice.  What’s an end-times conspiracy story without throwing in the Mossad, Free Masons, and the New World Order?

Obviously this got me asking questions about the so called Breaking Israel News web site, and I found a September 19, 2017 article on the Times of Israel website where they did a story on the guys that created the Breaking Israel News site:   Jewish media company puts biblical spin on news for evangelical Christians, with the subtitle:  “Defying journalistic conventions, Breaking Israel News publisher Rabbi Tuly Weisz taps into vast market hungry for stories of prophecy that are playing out in the Holy Land”   Note the key word:  "spin":

Quote

Naphtali “Tuly” Weisz was a newly ordained Modern Orthodox rabbi in Columbus, Ohio, when he began dialoging with evangelical Christians. At first, they met at the local Jewish Community Center. Later, he invited them into his synagogue, Beth Jacob Congregation, where he had taken over the pulpit from his late, long-serving grandfather, Rabbi David Stavsky.

This interfaith dialogue was satisfying, but the Yeshiva University-educated Weisz did not at that point consider non-Jews central to his work.

Then came a life-changing phone call. It was from a Christian woman he had met for the first time the previous evening at his synagogue. She wanted to buy $50,000 worth of Israel Bonds.

$cha-ching$

The article continues: 

Quote

The fundraising potential notwithstanding, Weisz suddenly realized the extent of the devotion and commitment to Israel of this woman and other Christian Zionists. The revelation led Weisz to reexamine his own religious Zionism and to embrace the participation of non-Jews in the process of building and sustaining the State of Israel. He decided to devote his career to communicating with Christian Zionists.

Like the Christians he was increasingly interacting with, Weisz saw the return of Jews to Israel as part of a redemptive process.

And here’s one more quote from later in the article:

Quote

In 2011, Weisz immigrated to Israel and started Israel365, a Jewish-owned and run “media company.” The company and its subsequent spin-offs target the 700 million-strong evangelical Christian worldwide community interested in connecting with the Holy Land from biblical and prophetic perspectives.

So, unless the Times of Israel site is doing a spin job on the Breaking Israel News site (what can we believe these days?), a couple of entrepreneurs created a “News” website to give people what they want to hear.   And this is a good place to quote The Nehor:

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The best advice I ever got about skepticism is to be equal opportunity with it. Be especially skeptical of the stuff you like. If someone is telling you what you want to hear be wary. Also sometimes be skeptical of a lot of generally held skepticism.

Yep.  Be skeptical, check sources.  And I’ll end this post quoting a popular hymn:   “We thank thee, O God, for a prophet To guide us in these latter days.”

Edited May 17, 2020 by InCognitus

[The Nehor]

If you want to hear something someone on the internet will tell it to you. The pandemic is nearly over and it is all China’s fault (or the US’s fault). The end is nigh. We have always been at war with Australasia.

To quote good old Jeremiah:

“I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;”

[Calm]

3 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

I'm thinking of something along the lines of the AVID chip that we have put in our cats to locate them. I don't think it will have anything to do with the virus.

I can see using a chip like that for simple things like tracking people or maybe even complicated stuff like monitoring health so a chip can be scanned in an emergency and the medical history including any drugs taken could be known immediately for doctors or emts, but the reason the chips work in dogs and cats and aren't being hacked is because they don't generally have bank accounts, etc. that make that effort profitable.    I bet figuring out how to clone chips in humans would become the new pastime for many criminals as soon as credit and bank accounts were attached to them.

I can see a possibility for tracking people minus the embedded chips because it is already possible through CCTV, credit cards, and phones and South Korea gives us an excellent example of what current tech can accomplish.  Also people volunteer heavily for this kind of stuff not only for security reasons, but for social ones...aren't there apps letting people know if there are others close by looking to hookup?  Then there are games like Pokémon Go. 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Calm

[InCognitus]

I just noticed something scary on my phone when viewing this board:

Do we have any way to find out who the 666th viewer was?   Please don't tell me it was Bill Gates!

[The Nehor]

My favorite mark of the beast story is that the letters on the papal tiara add up to 666 in four languages. My second favorite uses the same system to determine the AntiChrist is David Hasslehoff though that would explain why Germans love David Hasselhoff.

A cookie to anyone who gets that......

Edited May 18, 2020 by The Nehor

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I just noticed something scary on my phone when viewing this board:

Do we have any way to find out who the 666th viewer was?   Please don't tell me it was Bill Gates!

Holy moly!!

[Islander]

On 5/15/2020 at 12:20 PM, rodheadlee said:

What is our position on Revelation Chapter 13 verses 14- 18? I was an EV before converting to the Church so i probably have a flawed view. This news article brought it to my attention.

 https://news.yahoo.com/evangelicals-fear-the-mark-of-the-beast-from-a-coronavirus-vaccine-183249943.html

frome the article: Prominent evangelical pastors, including one who has since died of COVID-19, have promoted baseless claims about Bill Gates, implantable microchips that could be used to control the population under the guise of tracking COVID-19 infections and immunity, and a link between coronavirus vaccination and the mark of the beast, a signifier, in biblical prophecy, of submission to the Antichrist. Such ideas have since spread beyond evangelical circles.

What is the mark of the beast?

 

sorry for the poor form my computer is a beast.

 

 

The Greek "charagma" [χάραγμα] in verse 17 does, literally, mean engraving, etching, carved{ing) image, stamp(ed) marking. So, it is almost certain that it refers to a physical, distinctive mark/object etched in the hand or forehead of the people. The challenge here is that John is attempting to describe things and events to take place several thousand years into the future for which he has no linguistic descriptors in the 1st. century. Try describing a cell phone without using 20th century language like cell, phone, communicator, plastic, etc. The task becomes comical, at best. As to what it may actually be, we can all speculate. Some kind of tech gadget does seem plausible. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, InCognitus said:

I just noticed something scary on my phone when viewing this board:

One of the areas I served in as a missionary in America had a telephone prefix that was 666. I wondered if any Evangelicals ever could face living there. I never met any.

Meanwhile, our local government-run radio station is AM 666 ...

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

One of the areas I served in as a missionary in America had a telephone prefix that was 666. I wondered if any Evangelicals ever could face living there. I never met any.

Meanwhile, our local government-run radio station is AM 666 ...

When I was on my mission we got a referral to the address 666A on the A666. We were sure it was a joke but went for fun. It was legit. Looked it up. Looks like it does not exist anymore. Either torn down or transported to some hell dimension presumably.

[RevTestament]

On 5/16/2020 at 4:41 PM, 3DOP said:

Rev Testament, hi.

I would ask you what evidence shows that the mark of the beast is a sign of the Cross, shaped like the Hebrew character for Thau.

On the contrary, in the book of Ezekiel, we find this character on the forehead to be a highly favorable sign. The context is about a chastisement that is coming on a society that has turned from God and those who receive the mark of the Thau, or sign of the cross, are to be protected. I include a comment about the Hebrew letter that you might find interesting. The comment is bolded. From Ezekiel 9: 

[4] "And the Lord said to him: Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem: and mark Thau upon the foreheads of the men that sigh, and mourn for all the abominations that are committed in the midst thereof. [5] And to the others he said in my hearing: Go ye after him through the city, and strike: let not your eyes spare, nor be ye moved with pity.

[4] "Mark Thau": Thau, or Tau, is the last letter in the Hebrew alphabet, and signifies a sign, or a mark; which is the reason why some translators render this place set a mark, or mark a mark without specifying what this mark was. But St. Jerome, and other interpreters, conclude it was the form of the letter Thau, which in the ancient Hebrew character, was the form of a cross.

[6] Utterly destroy old and young, maidens, children and women: but upon whomsoever you shall see Thau, kill him not, and begin ye at my sanctuary. So they began at the ancient men who were before the house."

Catholics have interpreted this as being a symbol for those faithful in Ezekiel's time, who did not know that it was the future Cross of Christ that would save them. In the Old Testament those who did not receive the sign of the Cross were destroyed. With the coming of the New Testament, the sign of the Cross is still necessary, but much more clearly understood. It is a pious and worthy sign of our attachment to Him who paid for our sins. Who do you think is pleased when Catholics, who make the sign of the Cross, before they ask God's blessing on meals at home, are timid about doing the same thing at work or a restaurant? Would the devil be displeased that they aren't making the mark of the beast on themselves like they do at home? Or would God be displeased that they are embarrassed of identifying themselves publicly as followers of their Redeemer. When do you think Ezekiel's Thau, became the sign of attachment to the enemies of Christ? 

As for being unpopular, I thank you for opening your mind to us. No hard feelings. On the contrary, all my best wishes to you for a frankness which I must see as misguided, but with good intention.

Rory

Hi 3DOP,

Sorry, but for some reason I received no notice of your response to my post. Of course there is no evidence of the form of the mark, since Revelation simply does not say, but it does give many other salient criterion. I am just noting that the Hebrew character Tav which means mark had that shape in its original form, and carries that meaning as your own post notes - and the fact of the Catholic rite which uses that shape. I am not saying there is anything pernicious about the mark of the cross itself. However, its receipt does indicate one's allegiance to the teachings of the Catholic Church - which presumably is the purpose of the mark in Revelation as a sign of a covenant. It is much like the inverted pentagram on the SLC temple. Many US citizens now associate that symbol with Satan because satanists adopted the inverted pentagram with a circle as the sign of the goat. However, the inverted pentagram alone has long been a Christian symbol, as is evident in the many Churches of Europe with the pentagram in their stained glass windows, mosaics, etc. It's not the symbol itself that carries the meaning, but the meaning attached to it that carries import. It can be used in different ways.

I would add that the Roman pontiff fulfills all the other prophetic criterion of Revelation at the head of the woman in which he has fooled the entire world - including those fellow LDS who do not support me. It is nothing personal against Catholics at all. Many, many Catholics are fine people, as I know you are. God cares about them. He wants them to come out of the woman, because He loves them. They have just been led astray in their beliefs about Christ, the nature of the Godhead, etc. As a old cliche says... if the shoe fits.