General Conference

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It must really get you spun up that the son of Hyrum Smith, Joseph F. Smith, became a Church President and that Joseph F.’s son, Joseph Fielding Smith, became a Church President. Or that Hyrum’s great-grandson, M. Russell Ballard, is today acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve. Or that President Ezra Taft Benson was the son of Ezra T. Benson, an apostle under Brigham Young. 

and we could go on and on and that's my point, Pres. Nelson's son in law, Pres. Oaks son in law was a A70, Pre. Eyring-related to X number of past brethren

[Duncan]

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And if God tells them to call their child? Inspiration must appear random to be inspiration? How many of the other last names did you recognize? If we had a real problem with nepotism do you know how many times we would be hearing the same names? We are talking about great grandparents with large families. Not every son is getting a call like that and definitely every grandchild.

 President Hinckley allowed his own son to be called as a Seventy. He stated he recused himself from the discussion but allowed that the candidate has a good mother. Possible Elder Holland did the same?

You could be right though. Ancestral lineages of church leadership never go well. I mean, if you read the Book of Mormon you will find....uh-oh, oh no. Never mind.

exactly, why do we never hear of Nephi's kids?!

[Duncan]

25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Feel free to construct a narrative where it all came from a silver spoon. You know those Seventies. Basically trust fund kids that never grew up. Wish I could get in.

Somehow becomes a Mission President? You act like that is odd. It happens to a lot of people.

then let it happen to a lot of people, we got rich retired guys in our stake why not?!

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is hard to sing.

“Come Thou Fount”? Not particularly, as hymns go. 
 

Maybe it’s arranged in a difficult key for your vocal range. The melody lines of most of our hymns are in a troublesome key for me, but it’s not an issue, because I sing the bass lines. 

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Sure we do.  There are even gospel principles backing it.  It dates back to the foundation of the Church.

Heck, maybe even the foundation of the world.

what are the gospel principles backing it? I think you mean practice

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, Duncan said:

and we could go on and on and that's my point, Pres. Nelson's son in law, Pres. Oaks son in law was a A70, Pre. Eyring-related to X number of past brethren

Sorry, I can’t muster an iota of indignation about it. Better them than me, say I. 

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

and we could go on and on and that's my point, Pres. Nelson's son in law, Pres. Oaks son in law was a A70, Pre. Eyring-related to X number of past brethren

It really sounds as though you don't support these brethren in their callings or believe the callings come from the Lord.

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It must really get you spun up that the son of Hyrum Smith, Joseph F. Smith, became a Church President and that Joseph F.’s son, Joseph Fielding Smith, became a Church President. Or that Hyrum’s great-grandson, M. Russell Ballard, is today acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve. Or that President Ezra Taft Benson was the son of Ezra T. Benson, an apostle under Brigham Young. 

Sorry. Meant to say Ezra Taft Benson was Ezra T.’s grandson. 

[Rain]

53 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Once when I was called to be elders quorum president, the stake president suggested I keep the previous president's counselors. I did. It worked out. I can see that it might occur from time to time, yes. I'm stake clerk now, and when it comes to stake callings I can see how fraught with difficulty it can be sometimes to get people called to this and that. Like the YW president would like Sis A as a counselor, but the stake president is about to call Sis. A to be stake RS president, so he tells her she can't have Sis. A (can't tell her why, either). The YWP isn't sure who else she wants, so the SP suggests Sis. B. YWP doesn't get along well with Sis. B, so declines the offer, and comes back on a later day with a request for Sis. C. Who is currently RS President in Ward X, and Bishop X cries and whines that he can't do without her, so SP turns down YWP's request and suggests Sis. D. And so it goes.  We have small stakes here in the UK.

I'm not talking about situations like these.  I'm talking about when the bishop tells the RSP who her counselors are or that she will find out who they are when they are all sustained.  No suggestion of who he suggests, no denial of someone she suggests.  Just that the priesthood leader outright tells her who he has chosen or no, he won't call the women she prayed about because he has already called her counselors.  

[Duncan]

Just now, ksfisher said:

It really sounds as though you don't support these brethren in their callings or believe the callings come from the Lord.

it seems like nepotism was a thing of the past when the church was smaller but why drag it out until today? 16 million members and they pick their kids? I have studied foreordination for a long time and I have gotten different answers, and what not from people so I don't know what to believe. I think what's going on is the proximity principle, you pick people closest to you-is what I think is going on at the Q12 level and with their kids. Look at Elder Ronald Rasband, but he's a protege of Jon Hunstman Sr. who was the son in law of Elder Haight. Both Elders Holland and Cook were mission companions in England. I suspect Elder Ucthdorf was a favourite of Pres. Monson. Pres. Nelson was the Dr. of Pres. Kimball, Elder Eyring is the nephew of Pres. Kimball, Pres. Ballard is related to a whack of people, Elder Renlund's wife is the daughter of a former GA, Merlin Lybbert, as is Elder Gong's wife. The outlier's I can see are Elders Stevenson,Andersen, Christofferson,  Soares, Oaks(although he was Pres. of BYU) and Bednar. People just pick pick their friends, relatives whatever. In giving that list only one was not a GA prior to being called to be an Apostle, Bednar.

[Stargazer]

34 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I voted yes, as I figure with all of the 70's how much input will these men have my life? zero. I thought we don't believe in nepotism, but yet we have a new Elder Holland and Elder Tai's Dad was a GA in the 90's, and he was called when he was 46 in 2019, that's a long time till age 70 so it's a job/calling. Not my circus not my monkeys but when people tell me oh well, callings don't matter, it's all inspired, okay get inspired to call someone else other than your own kid, if you really believe that

You know, you seem a lot more cynical now than you used to be.  Old age catching up with you?

Personally, I rather liked what I saw in Elder Tai. I'd never heard of him until tonight when he gave his GC talk. I was rather impressed with him.  I then looked him up, and it does seem like he's rather young for the job. But I don't see what's wrong with that, nor that his Dad was a GA in the 90's.  Thanks for moaning about this subject; it caused me to look some things up. 

Let's see, starting with Joseph Smith, we have his nephew Joseph F. Smith, his grand nephew Joseph Fielding Smith, and his cousin George Albert Smith.  It gets "worse", but without going into great detail here, I should like to note that none of these men were layabouts looking for a job from their prominent daddies. Every single one of them dedicated their lives to church service and worked tirelessly to advance the cause of Christ. So you might talk about nepotism, but what I see are a group of men whose loyalty, dedication and service in the church is exemplary -- and world-changing in many instances.

And who was John the Baptist but Jesus's cousin. Simon Peter and Andrew were brothers, as were James and John.  The list of Book of Mormon witnesses is replete with blood relatives.  

Should the Lord deny himself the service of dedicated servants just because they are related to others among his dedicated servants?  And is Elder Tai a danger to your life, just because he is going to be a GA for the next 23 years, at least?  I suppose there is some danger in this after all! What if he gets called to be an Apostle?  Horrors! He'll be in there for life! What's wrong with him, anyway?

I have been "around" in the church. Never much in the center place, SLC. But I have observed many excellent local leaders, stake presidents, bishops and so on, some of whom I could easily picture as General Authorities.  But the vast majority of local leaders will never find themselves called to general offices in the church, despite their abilities. Mostly because there are relatively few such offices, but also because they are not known to the highest authorities in the church. The ones they do know are the ones nearer the center geographically, and among them are the ones who come to their attention because they have family ties with those who are already general leaders. A stake president in Provo is far more likely to become known to the President of the Church than one in New York City, for instance.  That's the way of it.  I do think that the Lord arranges these things -- that a man of surpassing dedication and faithfulness is likely to marry a woman of similar qualities, and their children are likely to be fruit of the excellent tree.  Note that I am not saying that children of authorities should get greater consideration for callings because of their parentage! Far from it! I am saying that it might be because of their parentage and raising up that they become of great use to the Lord. And why should He not avail Himself of their service?

 

 

[Damien the Leper]

45 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

boblloyd91 is a woman?

My bad. I thought I saw your response was toward Raingirl.

[Stargazer]

27 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I was talking about Richard Hinckley, who was a GA. I am not questioning their ability but 16 million members of the Church and it's one family leading it? Pres. Kimball, Benson and Hunter did not have any of their children serve a GAs so if they said we don't believe in nepotism they yeah, their actions fit with what they are saying

If they said they don't believe in nepotism? Did they? I gather they didn't, but that's an argument from silence, so it's hardly laying out a principle. Hunter didn't have much chance to do so, though -- maybe he was about to, so the Lord took him home?

It is a real stretch to say the church is being led by one family just because Gordon Hinckley called his son to be a Seventy amongst many other Seventy.

 

[Duncan]

1 minute ago, Stargazer said:

You know, you seem a lot more cynical now than you used to be.  Old age catching up with you?

Personally, I rather liked what I saw in Elder Tai. I'd never heard of him until tonight when he gave his GC talk. I was rather impressed with him.  I then looked him up, and it does seem like he's rather young for the job. But I don't see what's wrong with that, nor that his Dad was a GA in the 90's.  Thanks for moaning about this subject; it caused me to look some things up. 

Let's see, starting with Joseph Smith, we have his nephew Joseph F. Smith, his grand nephew Joseph Fielding Smith, and his cousin George Albert Smith.  It gets "worse", but without going into great detail here, I should like to note that none of these men were layabouts looking for a job from their prominent daddies. Every single one of them dedicated their lives to church service and worked tirelessly to advance the cause of Christ. So you might talk about nepotism, but what I see are a group of men whose loyalty, dedication and service in the church is exemplary -- and world-changing in many instances.

And who was John the Baptist but Jesus's cousin. Simon Peter and Andrew were brothers, as were James and John.  The list of Book of Mormon witnesses is replete with blood relatives.  

Should the Lord deny himself the service of dedicated servants just because they are related to others among his dedicated servants?  And is Elder Tai a danger to your life, just because he is going to be a GA for the next 23 years, at least?  I suppose there is some danger in this after all! What if he gets called to be an Apostle?  Horrors! He'll be in there for life! What's wrong with him, anyway?

I have been "around" in the church. Never much in the center place, SLC. But I have observed many excellent local leaders, stake presidents, bishops and so on, some of whom I could easily picture as General Authorities.  But the vast majority of local leaders will never find themselves called to general offices in the church, despite their abilities. Mostly because there are relatively few such offices, but also because they are not known to the highest authorities in the church. The ones they do know are the ones nearer the center geographically, and among them are the ones who come to their attention because they have family ties with those who are already general leaders. A stake president in Provo is far more likely to become known to the President of the Church than one in New York City, for instance.  That's the way of it.  I do think that the Lord arranges these things -- that a man of surpassing dedication and faithfulness is likely to marry a woman of similar qualities, and their children are likely to be fruit of the excellent tree.  Note that I am not saying that children of authorities should get greater consideration for callings because of their parentage! Far from it! I am saying that it might be because of their parentage and raising up that they become of great use to the Lord. And why should He not avail Himself of their service?

 

 

I am not cynical, I just want things reasonable.It has to make sense to me for me to accept it or I won't.  I doubt any GA will affect my life in any substantial way anyways, but 16 million people, we pick the relatives, and buddies? it seem so old school. That's what I was saying with the proximity principle, people are more likely to be called to these callings if they are known to the brethren in one way or another, not out of pure revelation, as in the Prophet calling someone he has no clue who he is-I know the story of Elder Melvin Ballard, but even then Pres. Grant was inclined to call his friend Richard W. Young to the Twelve, Elder Ballard wasn't even his first choice. I don't buy into the idea of "faith runs in families" if someone's parents weren't active or even members should they not have faith? are we wasting our time with missionary work, just try to preach to inactive members of families and don't bother with anyone else. I want to believe that the Lord places people in contact with others, via family or business associates in order to be known to be called but I haven't yet come across anything stating that. I once asked Elder Glen L. Pace of the 70 and he didn't know.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

If they said they don't believe in nepotism? Did they? I gather they didn't, but that's an argument from silence, so it's hardly laying out a principle. Hunter didn't have much chance to do so, though -- maybe he was about to, so the Lord took him home?

It is a real stretch to say the church is being led by one family just because Gordon Hinckley called his son to be a Seventy amongst many other Seventy.

 

In fact I clearly remember him declaring publicly that he had very little to do with it (other than ratifying it in the end). Obviously President Hinckley was very embarrassed about the potential for supposition of nepotism. 

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

If they said they don't believe in nepotism? Did they? I gather they didn't, but that's an argument from silence, so it's hardly laying out a principle. Hunter didn't have much chance to do so, though -- maybe he was about to, so the Lord took him home?

It is a real stretch to say the church is being led by one family just because Gordon Hinckley called his son to be a Seventy amongst many other Seventy.

 

I think the word that Pres. Hinckley used was "sensitive" but actions speak louder than words, clearly he got over his sensitivity when he allowed two of his kids to be called. I LOVE Pres. Hinckley I am just saying that it's hard to believe someone on something when actions speak louder than words, like what do want us to believe? as a EQP, should I give my totally inactive son the MP when he turns 18 and call him to be a counsellour in the EQP? he hasn't done much to warrant him being called. What is so special about Elder Holland's son? why give him creedence over some other guy? I am not saying he's bad or lived a life of crime but why him and not someone else?

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Tonight’s “General Evening Session”?

Have I  missed something?

I missed that announcement too. All members 11 and up. 

[Stargazer]

14 minutes ago, Rain said:

I'm not talking about situations like these.  I'm talking about when the bishop tells the RSP who her counselors are or that she will find out who they are when they are all sustained.  No suggestion of who he suggests, no denial of someone she suggests.  Just that the priesthood leader outright tells her who he has chosen or no, he won't call the women she prayed about because he has already called her counselors.  

Well, that sucks. My first thought anyway, was that if I were a bishop or stake president (praise be, that won't happen!) the most I might do along that line is suggest possibilities. When I was a branch president I had occasion to call two Primary presidents. I let them both choose their counselors.

On the other hand, during the time I served as a ward clerk I seem to recall the bishop controlling who was called to be the YM president's counselors. This was apparently because of his stewardship over the Aaronic priesthood. But the same bishop gave the YW, PR and RS presidents the privilege of choosing their own counselors. Technically, I suppose he's entitled to do so, actually. 

I remember when I was called as a SS counselor. We never had any meetings as a presidency, and my only responsibility seemed to be to act as a substitute teacher if needed. And the bishopric decided who was going to teach sunday school, and how it was organized. I kept wondering why the heck was I even there?  The SSP was also in the Stake SS, and they did meet occasionally, but I don't know why. 

[Stargazer]

10 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I don't buy into the idea of "faith runs in families"

I differ with you in that. But not because of DNA. It's because of nurture, and that is what I was implying in my long speech there, where I wrote "that a man of surpassing dedication and faithfulness is likely to marry a woman of similar qualities, and their children are likely to be fruit of the excellent tree".  Although I am not sure how to look at the prevalence of Smiths in the presidency of the church. Perhaps there is component of DNA in there somewhere. And you'll have to admit that the Lord is the Lord of DNA.

As for the rest of it, I shall let the Lord run His church.

[JAHS]

11 minutes ago, Duncan said:

18 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

If they said they don't believe in nepotism? Did they? I gather they didn't, but that's an argument from silence, so it's hardly laying out a principle. Hunter didn't have much chance to do so, though -- maybe he was about to, so the Lord took him home?

It is a real stretch to say the church is being led by one family just because Gordon Hinckley called his son to be a Seventy amongst many other Seventy.

 

I think the word that Pres. Hinckley used was "sensitive" but actions speak louder than words, clearly he got over his sensitivity when he allowed two of his kids to be called. I LOVE Pres. Hinckley I am just saying that it's hard to believe someone on something when actions speak louder than words, like what do want us to believe? as a EQP, should I give my totally inactive son the MP when he turns 18 and call him to be a counsellour in the EQP? he hasn't done much to warrant him being called. What is so special about Elder Holland's son? why give him creedence over some other guy? I am not saying he's bad or lived a life of crime but why him and not someone else?

President Hinckley said the following in the April 2005 Conference

"Among those sustained, as you have noted, is my 63-year-old son. I make it clear that I did not advance his name. That was done by others whose right it was to do so. I feel extremely sensitive about the matter of nepotism. As the lawyers say, I recused myself from participating. However, I believe he is worthy and qualified in every respect. In the first place, he had a great and wonderful mother. I wish I could recommend his father.
I mention this only because of my sensitivity concerning the matter of nepotism. Please do not hold it against him for his relationship to me. He’s powerless to help it."

[Stargazer]

9 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I missed that announcement too. All members 11 and up. 

Yeah, me too, and it's starting at 1 am my time. In just a few minutes. >Yawn<

[Stargazer]

3 minutes ago, JAHS said:

President Hinckley said the following in the April 2005 Conference

"Among those sustained, as you have noted, is my 63-year-old son. I make it clear that I did not advance his name. That was done by others whose right it was to do so. I feel extremely sensitive about the matter of nepotism. As the lawyers say, I recused myself from participating. However, I believe he is worthy and qualified in every respect. In the first place, he had a great and wonderful mother. I wish I could recommend his father.
I mention this only because of my sensitivity concerning the matter of nepotism. Please do not hold it against him for his relationship to me. He’s powerless to help it."

"[O]thers whose right it was to do so"?  I suppose that this was the presidency of the seventy.

[Raingirl]

10 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I think the word that Pres. Hinckley used was "sensitive" but actions speak louder than words, clearly he got over his sensitivity when he allowed two of his kids to be called. I LOVE Pres. Hinckley I am just saying that it's hard to believe someone on something when actions speak louder than words, like what do want us to believe? as a EQP, should I give my totally inactive son the MP when he turns 18 and call him to be a counsellour in the EQP? he hasn't done much to warrant him being called. What is so special about Elder Holland's son? why give him creedence over some other guy? I am not saying he's bad or lived a life of crime but why him and not someone else?

You sound like you’re criticizing just for the sake of criticizing.  You’re not even making sense in some of your statements. 

Elder Holland’s son was called over “some other guy” because that was Heavenly Father’s plan.  But you’ve already stated that you won’t accept anything that you don’t personally like, so even the truth won’t be acceptable to you.

You’re sounding more and more like an angry anti all the time. 

[Scott Lloyd]

The opening hymn of the Saturday evening session is one we don’t sing nearly often enough, “Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise.” 
 

And yes, I like it better than “Come Thou Fount.”

[Bernard Gui]

19 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I missed that announcement too. All members 11 and up. 

Guess we have to quarantine the knee biters and rugrats.