Lds Only: Changes You'd Like to See in Church This Decade

[Calm]

29 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is no bar to students coming to a BYU campus to study.  I don't know what you mean.  No residence requirements.  Students come from anywhere.  However, it is tough to get admitted nowadays.  When I went to BYU they'd take anybody.

I am not under the impression it is easier to get in to BYU now if you live Utah. UVU is now the largest university in the state for a reason. 
 

Quote

• 95%: United States
• 5%: International
• 105 Countries represented
• 50 States represented
• 32%: Utah
• 10%: California
• 5%: Texas
• 5%: Arizona
• 5%: Idaho

https://www.byu.edu/numbers

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_membership_statistics_(United_States)

Utah has about 30% of all American Saints, so it doesn’t appear to be too over its ‘fair share’.

California has 10%...I wonder if this is intentional quota so many students per state. Idaho and Arizona are a bit high at 5% instead of 4.5%. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Calm

[Meadowchik]

I would like to see moves away from the authoritarian model, starting with a church constitution. By such, the church could begin to be more accountable as an institution. I think this would be better for the whole and also the individual members, but obviously I don't expect this to happen in any of our lifetimes. And I'm sure there are some here who would promise to leave on the spot if such a thing happened.

 

[JamesBYoung]

(1) Emeritus status for apostles and FP at age 75.

(2) Leave LGBTQ to the Bishop.

(3) Take a billion dollars each year from investments and tackle children without food on weeks and the homeless problem in Utah.

(4) Organize an independent professional baseball team in St. George called the Danites.

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm surprised that you are registering surprise. It (Aaronic Priesthood youth gathering fast offerings) has been done in every ward I've belonged to with an Aaronic Priesthood quorum and is still pretty much ubiquitous in the stakes near Church headquarters, if not elsewhere. Where do you live, anyway? Are you in a single-adult ward? I don't think they do it in those.

No, I have been in family wards for the last decade. The last time I saw this done was probably 1996 and I have not heard of a ward in the two areas I have lived in that have done it. Maybe it is a heartland thing or maybe my area has just dispensed with it.

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I would like to see moves away from the authoritarian model, starting with a church constitution. By such, the church could begin to be more accountable as an institution. I think this would be better for the whole and also the individual members, but obviously I don't expect this to happen in any of our lifetimes. And I'm sure there are some here who would promise to leave on the spot if such a thing happened.

Just curious. What would this look like? A constitution normally outlines rights and powers. Are you thinking of something like that or something a little different? Like how and when Church disciplinary councils should be held? There are handbooks/manuals for that, which are easy to add to in the event a change in policy is felt to be needed. Constitutions tend to be difficult to change.... In truth there is no perfect government, because we are quite fallible. I don't normally say this, but the Church has been wrong quite a bit - I don't necessarily mean the Presidency. This of course does not mean the gospel is not true, like some seem to wish us to conclude. It just means the Church needs to learn how to grow from its mistakes, and maybe be a little more humble... forbid. What if the Nephites in the BoM said the Lord won't ever let us go astray? What would we think of them? Do we really have nothing to learn from them?

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No, I have been in family wards for the last decade. The last time I saw this done was probably 1996 and I have not heard of a ward in the two areas I have lived in that have done it. Maybe it is a heartland thing or maybe my area has just dispensed with it.

The only wards I have ever had them come by were when living in Utah (not CA, IL, KS).  Even in Canada where the homes were pretty close as in probably ten to 15 within walking distance of my home (a bike would probably work), it was not done.  Ever since we moved to Mapleton in 2003, they have done it though.  We are talking 2 by 3 blocks of streets with a culdesac and a cross street in the middle.  Maybe takes 1/2 hour or 45 minutes if they aren't ready.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Calm

[smac97]

Two thoughts:

1. I would like to see more emphasis on Elders Quorum activities.  I have yet to be in a ward where the men are encouraged to interact and create cohesion and brotherhood between them.  There are RS and YM/YW and Primary activities aplenty, but activities and events for the men are lacking.

2. I don't think the Church should create further educational institutions, at least not until the "Education Bubble" pops.  The cost of living has gone up quite a bit in the last 40 years or so, but the cost of tuition at college has exploded, for a variety of reasons (too many students are borrowing too much money, perverse incentives for colleges/universities to endlessly ratchet up tuition, big increases in administrative/bureaucratic and "bells and whistles" expenses, government takeover of student loans, etc.):

 

Could the Church improve the situation re: educational expenses?  I'm not sure it could.  

The bubble needs to pop.  Tuition increases, and the causes thereof, need to be addressed and fixed.  Perhaps the Church could then consider enlarging its role in providing educational opportunities to members.

Or . . . not.  Even if the costs for higher education are reigned in, why shouldn't members just make use of the educational infrastructure already in place?  In 1971, Neal A. Maxwell, after he became the Church Commissioner of Education, issued a policy stating that non-religious education should only be provided by the Church when "other educational systems are nonexistent, seriously deficient or inaccessible to our members."  Perhaps this policy should continue?

The Church has been paring down its secular educational programs for a while, having shut down Brigham Young College in 1926, LDS High School in 1931, the McCune School of Music in 1957, Brigham Young High School in 1968, various elementary schools in South America (Chile, Peru, Bolivia, and Paraguay) in the 1970s, the Indian Placement Program in 1996, Church College of New Zealand in 2009, and Benemerito De Las Americas in 2013.

The Church has also previously divested itself of various educational institutions, including the University of Deseret (now the University of Utah), Sanpete Stake Academy (now Snow College), Weber Stake Academy (now Weber State University), St. Joseph Stake Academy (now Eastern Arizona College), and St. George Stake Academy (now Dixie State University).

Meanwhile, the Church maintains BYU (including the BYU Salt Lake Center and the BYU Jerusalem Center), BYU-I, BYU-H, LDS Business College, BYU–Pathway Worldwide, Academia Juarez, fifteen primary and secondary schools in the Pacific Islands, the Sauniatu Agriculture Center (Samoa), and "Seminaries and Institutes" programs that are administered in 137 countries. 

In other words, the Church already has a fairly robust educational system in place.  And to the extent it should be expanded, might it be more appropriate to expand it where educational opportunities are well and truly limited/absent?  Many parts of Africa, for instance?

The Church has extensive holdings in broadcasting/publishing/media, agriculture and ranching endeavors and real estate, commercial real estate, residential properties, mixed use properties, insurance, and more.  Perhaps diversifying further, into an already crowded and well-resourced industry (education) is not necessary, or even prudent.

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism states that "two purposes have characterized Church participation in business: to provide important services to the community that might not otherwise be available, and to provide a reasonable return on the resources of the Church."  Neither of these rationales seems to warrant expanding educational institutions administered by the Church.  I don't think anyone here wants the Church to use education as a profit center, and educational opportunities are generally already available from secular institutions and the Church's CES-administered programs.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 28, 2020 by smac97

[RevTestament]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

There is no bar to students coming to a BYU campus to study.  I don't know what you mean.  No residence requirements.  Students come from anywhere.  However, it is tough to get admitted nowadays.  When I went to BYU they'd take anybody.

You seem to be arguing against yourself. Does the Church need another University back East or not? I thought you recommended it. Why? For one thing the travel to and from school for those back East or outside the country can be onerous. If you wish to teach there you are basically forced to live there - thus, drawing people to the west rather than building up the kingdom where they live. While BYU seems to strive not to discriminate based on residency, logistics alone serve to eliminate consideration for many who might choose to go there. It certainly did for me. I wanted my university to be at least within one days drive from my home - I was a 19 year old kid. I didn't want expensive plane rides, etc. If you don't get into BYU, the next obvious option is BYUI, which I believe has mushroomed in growth for these above reasons. Most don't get into BYU.  Yet it too is plagued with he same basic "unfairness" or favoritism towards those saints in the West. 

Several have mentioned to me(one in PM) that BYUI has a large online schooling program. Well, I kind of intonated as much - but it is around 13,000 enrollees. Plus the 20,000 on campus, and the enrollment is higher than BYU Provo as I said. This option may be good for some, but one of my sons tried to take a difficult engineering class online last semester because that is all he could get. It didn't go well. He quickly fell behind. He tried to get tutoring, but had issues with that as well. Being an online class, he had no classmates to turn to for help. He is much happier with the live class. 

The Church has recommended its modern youth to get an education - don't just rely on High School they advise. Then, it only subsidizes a few members willing to come to the intermountain west or Hawaii.... Again, it seems a little unfair to me, and not really supportive of a vast number of members. That is my problem with it - and it complains about those it does educate, while recommending they get an education, and it seems to be sitting on a vast pile of resources.

[DispensatorMysteriorum]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm surprised that you are registering surprise. It (Aaronic Priesthood youth gathering fast offerings) has been done in every ward I've belonged to with an Aaronic Priesthood quorum and is still pretty much ubiquitous in the stakes near Church headquarters, if not elsewhere. Where do you live, anyway? Are you in a single-adult ward? I don't think they do it in those.

I live in the Saint Louis area. I think the last time the deacons were used to collect fast offerings here was around 1995, and it only happened once or twice. It isn't practical in an area like ours where the ward boundaries are about 50 miles north-south and 15 miles east-south, with members strewed from one end to the other. 

[JAHS]

8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Wooo!!!! There are places that still do that? I admit I was surprised when I was buying stuff online for the ward and saw those old envelopes for sale. Thought they just forgot to take the product off the page. I have not heard of any ward doing that since before my mission.

 

I'm surprised that you are registering surprise. It (Aaronic Priesthood youth gathering fast offerings) has been done in every ward I've belonged to with an Aaronic Priesthood quorum and is still pretty much ubiquitous in the stakes near Church headquarters, if not elsewhere. Where do you live, anyway? Are you in a single-adult ward? I don't think they do it in those.

Our ward still does it so it gives something more  for the deacons to do and so people who want to help the poor but don't come to church can be reminded to donate. I agree with today's technology they can do it online but might be more encouraged and reminded to do it if the Deacon comes by to collect it. 

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/27/2020 at 1:56 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

This challenge to the youth by the Church leaders may be an effort to get them to show initiative and design their own program.

My son Abogadissimo who is serving as a bishop has been overwhelmed by the added responsibilities of the new youth program. That has been a huge challenge. Members and leaders really have to step up and embrace the new directions if it is going to work.

Quote

The U.S. Armed Forces uses a similar carrot and stick approach to get volunteers, with education benefits a huge draw.  The Church can actually afford to do this, and can't afford not to.  Attracting RMS (nearly half of whom are now women) to eastern and midwestern schools could provide a healthy shift for many students -- including RMs from foreign countries.
 

I would like to see the Perpetual Education Fund expanded to include any RM who would like to participate.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, smac97 said:

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism states that "two purposes have characterized Church participation in business: to provide important services to the community that might not otherwise be available, and to provide a reasonable return on the resources of the Church."  Neither of these rationales seems to warrant expanding educational institutions administered by the Church.  I don't think anyone here wants the Church to use education as a profit center, and educational opportunities are generally already available from secular institutions and the Church's CES-administered programs.

The only true needs imo for some form of CES is 1) to demonstrate that scholarship and the Gospel do not need to conflict...which requires greater efforts than in just being dismissive of the other view or worse depends on pseudoscientific ideas and 2) to provide social associations for young adults to serve the community together as well as each other and to increase chance of marrying in the Church to decrease chance of conflict over religious values, etc.

Oops...left out third because it overlaps with 1) and that is strong, quality gospel teaching.

Strong Institute programs seem to meet the need of the latter two.  Better to concentrate on putting resources into providing quality seminary and institute materials and training teachers to use them, something only the Church can provide, rather than creating campuses that duplicate others' work.

The first can be satisfied by encouraging students to study the Gospel in depth including academically prepared material, such as dependence on quality history work such as in Saints.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Calm

[smac97]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

You seem to be arguing against yourself. Does the Church need another University back East or not? I thought you recommended it. Why? For one thing the travel to and from school for those back East or outside the country can be onerous.

Students from "outside the country" would not be helped much by a school in the eastern United States.

Quote

If you wish to teach there you are basically forced to live there - thus, drawing people to the west rather than building up the kingdom where they live.

I'm not sure the kingdom is primarily built up by academics being employed by the Church.

Moreover, academics who are members of the Church and teaching in Church-run schools tend to be "preaching to the choir."  That's a wonderful thing, to be sure.  But there's also much to be said about academics teaching in non-Church-run institutions.  

Quote

While BYU seems to strive not to discriminate based on residency, logistics alone serve to eliminate consideration for many who might choose to go there. It certainly did for me. I wanted my university to be at least within one days drive from my home - I was a 19 year old kid. I didn't want expensive plane rides, etc. If you don't get into BYU, the next obvious option is BYUI, which I believe has mushroomed in growth for these above reasons. Most don't get into BYU.  Yet it too is plagued with he same basic "unfairness" or favoritism towards those saints in the West. 

I'm not sure we can characterize these things as "unfairness" or "favoritism."  The Church cannot be all things to all people.  It is trying hard to provide educational opportunities to members throughout the world, but running full-blown educational institutions is an enourmously expensive endeavor.  CES is already one of the Church's biggest financial outlays.  And while fostering education is certainly a worthwhile goal, I am not sure it is essential that the Church provide that education.  

Quote

Several have mentioned to me(one in PM) that BYUI has a large online schooling program. Well, I kind of intonated as much - but it is around 13,000 enrollees. Plus the 20,000 on campus, and the enrollment is higher than BYU Provo as I said. This option may be good for some, but one of my sons tried to take a difficult engineering class online last semester because that is all he could get. It didn't go well. He quickly fell behind. He tried to get tutoring, but had issues with that as well. Being an online class, he had no classmates to turn to for help. He is much happier with the live class. 

Fair points.

Quote

The Church has recommended its modern youth to get an education - don't just rely on High School they advise. Then, it only subsidizes a few members willing to come to the intermountain west or Hawaii.... Again, it seems a little unfair to me, and not really supportive of a vast number of members. That is my problem with it - and it complains about those it does educate, while recommending they get an education, and it seems to be sitting on a vast pile of resources.

The gist of your argument/complaint seems to come down to a matter of convenience and personal preferences.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 28, 2020 by smac97

[Nacho2dope]

On 1/27/2020 at 12:20 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

Eliminate the practice of sending Aaronic Priesthood youth around the ward to gather fast offerings. It’s a long-outmoded custom from yesteryear. It is inconvenient at best, can even be dangerous and is no longer necessary. Most anyone these days with a computer and internet access can pay his/her fast offerings as well as tithing online at the Church’s website. Or one can include the fast offering with the tithing check or in the same envelope as the tithing. 

Does your ward still do this? Our ward here in Texas has stopped that. I didn't know it was still in use. 

[RevTestament]

27 minutes ago, smac97 said:

The gist of your argument/complaint seems to come down to a matter of convenience and personal preferences.

Thanks,

-Smac

I don't know how you conclude that from what I said. The gist of my argument is that the Church doesn't really seem to know what it wants to do, and what it has done seems a little unfair. That is not a personal preference. On the one hand there are rumblings that running BYU is a pain in its side, and really an unwanted burden, while enormously expanding enrollment at BYUI. It has repeatedly told the saints to build up the kingdom where they are at, but really only entered into an aggressive temple building program about 20 years ago - I'm not complaining about that - I say it was high time. It tells its youth to get educated, which has resulted in a higher income membership and more tithing, but seems reluctant to help educate them unless they are willing to come the intermountain west(most Canadian members live back east too). Many of these students end up marrying and staying in the west. None of these things strike you as a bit lopsided or inconsistent? 

Edited January 28, 2020 by RevTestament

[Duncan]

58 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Two thoughts:

1. I would like to see more emphasis on Elders Quorum activities.  I have yet to be in a ward where the men are encouraged to interact and create cohesion and brotherhood between them.  There are RS and YM/YW and Primary activities aplenty, but activities and events for the men are lacking.

2. I don't think the Church should create further educational institutions, at least not until the "Education Bubble" pops.  The cost of living has gone up quite a bit in the last 40 years or so, but the cost of tuition at college has exploded, for a variety of reasons (too many students are borrowing too much money, perverse incentives for colleges/universities to endlessly ratchet up tuition, big increases in administrative/bureaucratic and "bells and whistles" expenses, government takeover of student loans, etc.):

 

Could the Church improve the situation re: educational expenses?  I'm not sure it could.  

The bubble needs to pop.  Tuition increases, and the causes thereof, need to be addressed and fixed.  Perhaps the Church could then consider enlarging its role in providing educational opportunities to members.

Or . . . not.  Even if the costs for higher education are reigned in, why shouldn't members just make use of the educational infrastructure already in place?  In 1971, Neal A. Maxwell, after he became the Church Commissioner of Education, issued a policy stating that non-religious education should only be provided by the Church when "other educational systems are nonexistent, seriously deficient or inaccessible to our members."  Perhaps this policy should continue?

The Church has been paring down its secular educational programs for a while, having shut down Brigham Young College in 1926, LDS High School in 1931, the McCune School of Music in 1957, Brigham Young High School in 1968, various elementary schools in South America (Chile, Peru, Bolivia, and Paraguay) in the 1970s, the Indian Placement Program in 1996, Church College of New Zealand in 2009, and Benemerito De Las Americas in 2013.

The Church has also previously divested itself of various educational institutions, including the University of Deseret (now the University of Utah), Sanpete Stake Academy (now Snow College), Weber Stake Academy (now Weber State University), St. Joseph Stake Academy (now Eastern Arizona College), and St. George Stake Academy (now Dixie State University).

Meanwhile, the Church maintains BYU (including the BYU Salt Lake Center and the BYU Jerusalem Center), BYU-I, BYU-H, LDS Business College, BYU–Pathway Worldwide, Academia Juarez, fifteen primary and secondary schools in the Pacific Islands, the Sauniatu Agriculture Center (Samoa), and "Seminaries and Institutes" programs that are administered in 137 countries. 

In other words, the Church already has a fairly robust educational system in place.  And to the extent it should be expanded, might it be more appropriate to expand it where educational opportunities are well and truly limited/absent?  Many parts of Africa, for instance?

The Church has extensive holdings in broadcasting/publishing/media, agriculture and ranching endeavors and real estate, commercial real estate, residential properties, mixed use properties, insurance, and more.  Perhaps diversifying further, into an already crowded and well-resourced industry (education) is not necessary, or even prudent.

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism states that "two purposes have characterized Church participation in business: to provide important services to the community that might not otherwise be available, and to provide a reasonable return on the resources of the Church."  Neither of these rationales seems to warrant expanding educational institutions administered by the Church.  I don't think anyone here wants the Church to use education as a profit center, and educational opportunities are generally already available from secular institutions and the Church's CES-administered programs.

Thanks,

-Smac

We literally just had a discussion about EQ activities in the quorum on Sunday and the teacher said he is passionate about BBQ and I was told our EQ Budget is 500 clams, which was 300 more than i expected so we have a BBQ Specialist now and all that money so things just got good🥩🍖🥓

Edited January 28, 2020 by Duncan

[Ginger Snaps]

I’d like to see equality in the sealing policies. We already seal women to all their husbands posthumously. Why not allow widows to be sealed again? 

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Ginger Snaps said:

I’d like to see equality in the sealing policies. We already seal women to all their husbands posthumously. Why not allow widows to be sealed again? 

Big push on that.  Always the first thought when this question comes up and really the only one I am passionate about to be honest now women can get endowments when spiritually ready as opposed to events in life.  I have said make the sealing consistent so often, I wasn't going to this time around and just think of variations on others' thought.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Calm

[smac97]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I don't know how you conclude that from what I said.

• "For one thing the travel to and from school for those back East or outside the country can be onerous."
• "If you wish to teach there you are basically forced to live there."
• "While BYU seems to strive not to discriminate based on residency, logistics alone serve to eliminate consideration for many who might choose to go there."
• "I wanted my university to be at least within one days drive from my home - I was a 19 year old kid. I didn't want expensive plane rides, etc."
• "Basic 'unfairness' or favoritism towards those saints in the West."
• "{The Church} only subsidizes a few members willing to come to the intermountain west or Hawaii."
• "That is my problem with it."

The primary - perhaps even sole - complaint is that BYU and BYU-I are in the West.  That seems like a complaint about convenience and preference.

Meanwhile, most of the top-ranked schools are back east, so those members of the Church "in the West" have the same sort of issues if they want to attend those schools.

This isn't really a matter of favoritism.  It's a matter of logistics and geography.

As for "unfairness," I think that's too subjective a question.  The Saints in the U.S. are much better off than, say, the Saints in Zimbabwe (my parents served a mission there, returning last year).  Wouldn't it be more "fair" for the Church to build a school there?

Quote

The gist of my argument is that the Church doesn't really seem to know what it wants to do,

I don't know what this means.

Quote

and what it has done seems a little unfair.

See above.  Allocation of the Church's resources will always be susceptible to such criticisms.  Always.  

Quote

That is not a personal preference.

Well yes, it is.  It's a personal preference to go to a church school, or not.  It's not compulsory.  And it's certainly not the only option.

The Church has a huge educational system in place.  It is hugely expensive.  You seem to be proposing that the Church build a school back east so that students back east can save money on airfare and be closer to home.  That sounds like "a matter of convenience and personal preferences."

Quote

On the one hand there are rumblings that running BYU is a pain in its side, and really an unwanted burden, while enormously expanding enrollment at BYUI.

I've heard that running BYU is expensive and difficult.  So yes.

Quote

It has repeatedly told the saints to build up the kingdom where they are at, but really only entered into an aggressive temple building program about 20 years ago - I'm not complaining about that - I say it was high time.

Temples can only be built and operated by the Church. 

Schools, on the other hand, can be built by anyone, anywhere.  And the Church can have a presence nearby such schools via the Institute program.

Quote

It tells its youth to get educated, which has resulted in a higher income membership and more tithing, but seems reluctant to help educate them unless they are willing to come the intermountain west (most Canadian members live back east too).

Again, the Church cannot be all things to all people.

Everything you are saying - and much of it is understandable - can be readily applied to the Saints in Africa, in the Philippines, in South America.  The Saints in those areas generally have far fewer resources (both financial and educational) as compared to American/Canadian members.  

Quote

Many of these students end up marrying and staying in the west. None of these things strike you as a bit lopsided or inconsistent? 

It strikes me as logistics and geography.

It is my understanding that BYU puts a cap on enrollments for students from the Intermountain West (mostly Utah, IIRC), with the idea being that such students have already had the opportunity to grow up in the "center stakes," and that perhaps the kids from elsewhere - such as back East - should be given a few more slots at BYU, so as to let them have the opportunity.

In other words, it is my understanding that my children, who have grown up in Utah, are at a disadvantage in applying to BYU as compared to students from "back East."  Is that "a bit lopsided or inconsistent"?  I don't see it that way.  The Church is working hard to do right by its members, while still working within the framework of financial constraints, logistics, geography, the four-fold mission of the Church (education being only derivative of them), and so on.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 28, 2020 by smac97

[smac97]

52 minutes ago, Ginger Snaps said:

I’d like to see equality in the sealing policies. We already seal women to all their husbands posthumously. Why not allow widows to be sealed again? 

Or short of that, I would like to see doctrinal exposition/explanation as to the policy underlying sealing policies (men can be sealed to more than one women, but not vice versa).

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

Quote

most Canadian members live back east too

CFR please, I got a definitely different impression when living in Canada.  Huge population in Alberta, quite a few in BC, not sure about the rest.

The map of meetinghouses suggest most out west:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/maps/meetinghouses/@72.054355,-153.997048,2&lang=eng&id=::::Canada:41.676556,-141.001870,83.638100,-50.976600

Edited January 28, 2020 by Calm

[HappyJackWagon]

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm surprised that you are registering surprise. It (Aaronic Priesthood youth gathering fast offerings) has been done in every ward I've belonged to with an Aaronic Priesthood quorum and is still pretty much ubiquitous in the stakes near Church headquarters, if not elsewhere. Where do you live, anyway? Are you in a single-adult ward? I don't think they do it in those.

I haven't seen this done in my area for at least 15 years. Geographic area plays into this a lot.

17 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You do realize that CES (the various BYU campuses) already partially subsidizes all students who attend?

Instead of increasing the number of students the church subsidizes it could simply get out of the education business altogether. It seems fair that they either subsidize all educations or none. Aside from Pathways, there is definitely a benefit to US students, and even more benefit to western US students.

[Meadowchik]

3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Just curious. What would this look like? A constitution normally outlines rights and powers. Are you thinking of something like that or something a little different? Like how and when Church disciplinary councils should be held? There are handbooks/manuals for that, which are easy to add to in the event a change in policy is felt to be needed. Constitutions tend to be difficult to change.... In truth there is no perfect government, because we are quite fallible. I don't normally say this, but the Church has been wrong quite a bit - I don't necessarily mean the Presidency. This of course does not mean the gospel is not true, like some seem to wish us to conclude. It just means the Church needs to learn how to grow from its mistakes, and maybe be a little more humble... forbid. What if the Nephites in the BoM said the Lord won't ever let us go astray? What would we think of them? Do we really have nothing to learn from them?

From what I can see, a church constitution generally covers its government which inherently motivates the inclusion of a statement of faith. The authority, practices, and standards can be delineated in a variety of areas, including ritual, discipline, and finances, etc..., and can be complemented with bylaws which may change as needed and then amendments which tend to change much less frequently.

The LDS handbooks are not really comparable but arguably are the closest to it, although might just be considered like internal bylaws to an unwritten government. It's also hard to find a constitution of sorts via scripture, as the modern church differs in many respects from older administrations.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Meadowchik

[HappyJackWagon]

One of the main changes I'd like to see made would be allowing a wider variety of music in worship. Some of the rules about the types of instruments allowed, for example, are antiquated. There's an obvious preference for Piano and Organ, but why? I'd love to see music updated. There is some fantastic contemporary Christian/LDS music that would make worship services more enjoyable.

I'd also like to see the church ease up on the control about who attends church where. I've lived in the same town for 20 years and have had my ward changed 8 times. The building I attend has been changed 6 times. And it is not only expected that I attend where assigned, but required. I'd prefer for the church to let members attend where and when they would like. If 8:30 am church 20 miles away (where I'm assigned) doesn't work for me and my family, why not allow me to attend 11:00 church 5 miles away (where I'm not assigned)

I'd also prefer to see the word of wisdom applied as written in scripture and not as implemented by policy creep.

 

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I would like to see moves away from the authoritarian model, starting with a church constitution. By such, the church could begin to be more accountable as an institution. I think this would be better for the whole and also the individual members, but obviously I don't expect this to happen in any of our lifetimes. And I'm sure there are some here who would promise to leave on the spot if such a thing happened.

 

The constitution would be the Doctrine and Covenants.