Hamba Tuhan Posted January 30, 2020 Posted January 30, 2020 4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: Not much room for repentance, even at a later date. Things are not so set in stone as you suggest. Some youth are late bloomers, and we should not write them off so easily. I have literally no idea how you found that impression in my words! I agree with you 100 per cent. God plays the long game, I have found, which makes my task relatively simple: genuinely love people, be patient with them, and trust that 'the Lord is not slack', precisely as the apostle Peter taught us. I genuinely believe that most who wander will return, including many of our vocal critics on this board. I mean, why wouldn't they? And I LOVE the parable that teaches that the reward in the end is the same for all of us! 2
ERMD Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 22 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Except that many people have real issues that they may not be comfortable sharing with the counselors or EQ and RS presidents. After almost two centuries of practice, it may take some real effort to make that switch. I think the effort is concentrated on the appropriate exercise of priesthood keys. Fortunately, no one is two centuries old, so they aren't quite that accustomed to it. 🙂 1
Robert F. Smith Posted January 31, 2020 Author Posted January 31, 2020 7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: ..................................... I genuinely believe that most who wander will return, including many of our vocal critics on this board. I mean, why wouldn't they? ....................................... Sorry I misunderstood you, but you seemed so worried. Anyhow, they might wait until just before Resurrection and Judgment to repent and accept the Gospel.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 31, 2020 Author Posted January 31, 2020 11 hours ago, Calm said: Not seeing how the Church not footing the bill of a missionary's education takes you to no real initiation. If anything, it might be prone to extend childhood for those whose parents, family, or ward pay for their mission and then they get university paid for as long as they want as well. The G.I. Bill and other benefits were always merely a way to get them to sign up, an incentive. The piece de resistance is naturally the mission. That's where the rubber meets the road, and there must needs be peril in doing that. You emphasize the fear of failure, but that is just the point. Without failure there can be no success. That's why we all came here. "Why should we think to earn a great reward, if we now shun the fight?" Like social grading,, we really do no one any favor by sugar-coating everything. Our first concern should really be with the new generation of young men who face no real challenges, who are not going to college, not marrying, and not even forming ordinary friendships. Anomie is the true enemy, and meaninglessness the thing which should most frighten us. 11 hours ago, Calm said: Real initiation rites/process tend to have a significant penalty for those who lack commitment or follow through. Not being a dedicated missionary may make a difference personally and to one’s companions, but when one is back home or at school no one will have a clue unless one tells them. One is not treated differently. Can't tell whether the cart is before or behind the horse here. Is perception everything?
Bernard Gui Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 1 hour ago, ERMD said: I think the effort is concentrated on the appropriate exercise of priesthood keys. Fortunately, no one is two centuries old, so they aren't quite that accustomed to it. 🙂 It’s baked into our expectations.
Calm Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: The G.I. Bill and other benefits were always merely a way to get them to sign up, an incentive. The piece de resistance is naturally the mission. That's where the rubber meets the road, and there must needs be peril in doing that. You emphasize the fear of failure, but that is just the point And for those who don’t care about failing, a mission is not a challenge, but a way to waste time for two years and get paid for doing it. There is no way to force a missionary on a mission to accept it as a challenge. What happens if an enlisted man just walks when challenged to run the all day course with their backpacks or whatever they do and declares “I am moving just like I am supposed to be doing, aren’t I”? Boot camp is set up on the make or break principle from what I have heard. In the end they get sent home if they refuse, but there are a lot of pressure tactics that can be used that shouldn’t be used on a mission and likely would result in the missionaries pulling that pressure stuff being sent home. Missionary life is set up more on the make or that’s disappointing for all principle. What happens if missionary doesn’t study? Not much detrimental. Their companion gets to babysit. They can’t restrict eating, movement, there is no financial penalty or church discipline or pulling of membership privileges if a missionary goes home early because they don’t care. In the past with travel more costly and problematic and telephones less ubiquitous, there was more of a boot camp restrictive atmosphere to missions, but now any missionary who cares can find ways to get online and get not only moral support for breaking rules, but things forbidden to missionaries easily sent to them, mission life isn’t that difficult to ‘ride out’ as a disbeliever. Boredom seems to be the most reported problem from what I have read. Edited January 31, 2020 by Calm 1
Robert F. Smith Posted January 31, 2020 Author Posted January 31, 2020 4 hours ago, Calm said: And for those who don’t care about failing, a mission is not a challenge, but a way to waste time for two years and get paid for doing it. There is no way to force a missionary on a mission to accept it as a challenge. What happens if an enlisted man just walks when challenged to run the all day course with their backpacks or whatever they do and declares “I am moving just like I am supposed to be doing, aren’t I”? Boot camp is set up on the make or break principle from what I have heard. In the end they get sent home if they refuse, but there are a lot of pressure tactics that can be used that shouldn’t be used on a mission and likely would result in the missionaries pulling that pressure stuff being sent home. Whether in boot camp or in regular combat unit training, the same principles apply in the USMC. You comply with orders or you go to the brig and maybe lose rank and pay grade. Most men I served with had high levels of commitment, and often went above and beyond the call of duty. There is a thing called esprit d'corps. 4 hours ago, Calm said: Missionary life is set up more on the make or that’s disappointing for all principle. What happens if missionary doesn’t study? Not much detrimental. Their companion gets to babysit. They can’t restrict eating, movement, there is no financial penalty or church discipline or pulling of membership privileges if a missionary goes home early because they don’t care. In the past with travel more costly and problematic and telephones less ubiquitous, there was more of a boot camp restrictive atmosphere to missions, but now any missionary who cares can find ways to get online and get not only moral support for breaking rules, but things forbidden to missionaries easily sent to them, mission life isn’t that difficult to ‘ride out’ as a disbeliever. Boredom seems to be the most reported problem from what I have read. All that is true, Calm, but not the point. Someone sent home would not get the agreed upon benefits, and that would be at the sole discretion of a mission president. Carrot and stick. Anyone who decides to be a member of the "mission swim team" doesn't really have to be there. That is the case now. I am well aware of problems on missions, up to and including murder of one missionary by another. But no pain, no gain. Would you prefer the current tendency of men to just drift into video games? And to live in their parents' basement? Really? Well, that's where society is going. I recall a kid whom I highly respected in Boy Scouts. He was a good student at school as well. Then he was put through the rigors of a night alone in the forest as a candidate for Order of the Arrow. He couldn't handle it and failed the test (like the old Amerind Vision Quest). Didn't see much of him after that. There is definitely a cost, Calm. No denying that. But a price has to be paid. That's what this life is all about.
Calm Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Someone sent home would not get the agreed upon benefits, and that would be at the sole discretion of a mission president. Carrot and stick Being sent home when one doesn't want to be there isn't a stick. The system is not carrot and stick, but carrot and carrot. If you make it through, you get the benefit of subsidized education. If you can't hack it and get sent home, you get the benefit of not having to endure that which you don't want to endure. Quote Would you prefer the current tendency of men to just drift into video games? And to live in their parents' basement? Really? Well, that's where society is going. Subsidized education for halfhearted efforts one's mission isn't going to prevent men from drifting into video games. If anything, it would encourage it. Why not just apply half hearted efforts to college just like you did your mission and spend time playing video games rather than studying; after all, not you nor your family are paying for it, the Church is! There are other, more cost effective ways to ensure that the support is there for those who it will help. The PEP expanded to all members would be one way. Another could be sibsidized education for those that demonstrated a certain minimum of effort both prior to and during schooling, with those with lower grades being able to have other options such as volunteer work or consistent job attendance and efforts with recommendations from supervisors to ensure these were not just more show up and sit around activities. Quote I recall a kid whom I highly respected in Boy Scouts. He was a good student at school as well. Then he was put through the rigors of a night alone in the forest as a candidate for Order of the Arrow. He couldn't handle it and failed the test (like the old Amerind Vision Quest). Didn't see much of him after that. There is definitely a cost, Calm. No denying that. But a price has to be paid. That's what this life is all about. Which has nothing to do, in my opinion, with what we are talking about, a generic subsidized of all education for any RM no matter the level of their actual participation on their mission, they just had to show up. Was your kid promised a free ride for tuition if he made it through? That might make your example more relevant to the discussion. ----- Initiation rites are important. I find the lack of formalized ones for young women in our church dissapointing and hope there will be more now it is being made plain that youth are supposed to become their own leaders. Becoming deacons, teachers, and priests should be more meaningful as well imo. Milestones in the path from childhood to adulthood are also important, such as getting one's own bank account and actually controlling it (Dad got us a bank account when we were ten, but we weren't allowed to even have the account books or do anything with the money that got deposited there, so that was mèaningless in the long run. Milestones to encourage growth need to be more than just giving a kid stuff because they show up, live another year, etc. Edited January 31, 2020 by Calm
Robert F. Smith Posted January 31, 2020 Author Posted January 31, 2020 3 hours ago, Calm said: Being sent home when one doesn't want to be there isn't a stick. The system is not carrot and stick, but carrot and carrot. If you make it through, you get the benefit of subsidized education. If you can't hack it and get sent home, you get the benefit of not having to endure that which you don't want to endure. Subsidized education for halfhearted efforts one's mission isn't going to prevent men from drifting into video games. If anything, it would encourage it. Why not just apply half hearted efforts to college just like you did your mission and spend time playing video games rather than studying; after all, not you nor your family are paying for it, the Church is! If all that were so, Germany and Scandanavia would not have instituted free trade schools and higher ed for anyone wanting it -- through to a doctorate, if that is wanted. It has been enormously successful. As with elementary and secondary education (also free), one can ignore it and dilly dally, but they just don't. Continued enrollment depends upon grades and performance. Their populations are more productive and healthy than Americans. Halfhearted efforts? Drop em. On mission or in school. Follow the Law of the Harvest: Tough love. 3 hours ago, Calm said: There are other, more cost effective ways to ensure that the support is there for those who it will help. The PEP expanded to all members would be one way. Another could be sibsidized education for those that demonstrated a certain minimum of effort both prior to and during schooling, with those with lower grades being able to have other options such as volunteer work or consistent job attendance and efforts with recommendations from supervisors to ensure these were not just more show up and sit around activities. Which has nothing to do, in my opinion, with what we are talking about, a generic subsidized of all education for any RM no matter the level of their actual participation on their mission, they just had to show up. Was your kid promised a free ride for tuition if he made it through? That might make your example more relevant to the discussion. The Vision Quest is its own reward. Most of those going through serious initiations know full well that they can fail. They don't do it to get benefits. Just look at a YouTube video of volunteers for SEALS. Only an extreme minority make it through. It's about being a man, Calm. 3 hours ago, Calm said: Initiation rites are important. I find the lack of formalized ones for young women in our church dissapointing and hope there will be more now it is being made plain that youth are supposed to become their own leaders. Becoming deacons, teachers, and priests should be more meaningful as well imo. Milestones in the path from childhood to adulthood are also important, such as getting one's own bank account and actually controlling it (Dad got us a bank account when we were ten, but we weren't allowed to even have the account books or do anything with the money that got deposited there, so that was mèaningless in the long run. Milestones to encourage growth need to be more than just giving a kid stuff because they show up, live another year, etc. I agree, but we are not going to achieve anything by being namby pamby about it. When I was in Provo Stake years ago, I had to go up to Camp Mia Shalom to guard a gate all night. While I was at dinner, I came to understand just how much the young women were learning at camp from seasoned women in their thirties -- tough and resourceful women who set powerful examples for those teens. They took them on hikes into the back country. The money was well spent, and that's why the youth budgets are so expensive.
Calm Posted January 31, 2020 Posted January 31, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Halfhearted efforts? Drop em. On mission or in school. Follow the Law of the Harvest: Tough love. Great. We don't disagree. Quote The Vision Quest is its own reward. Most of those going through serious initiations know full well that they can fail. They don't do it to get benefits. Just look at a YouTube video of volunteers for SEALS. Only an extreme minority make it through. It's about being a man, Calm.... we are not going to achieve anything by being namby pamby about it. Your comments keep seeming to me to be unrelated to what I am saying, so .I think there may be some fundamental wrong assumptions about what the other is talking about for both of us, for example to me the way you have been saying subsidize all RMs is namby pamby, like giving a gold ribbon to every kid who showed up including those dragged in by their parents who sat and whined the whole time about being there....while you apparently think I am against youth programs that challenge kids...the opposite of my position. My frustration level has gone up enough I am going to call it quits now that I know you aren't saying subsidize RM without regard to their performance. I have no problem subsidizing people who are actually trying even if they are failing or even only trying to be committed. It is those who have given up on trying, who don't care to be committed and even brag about working against the Church where they can...those are the type of RMs I don't think the Church should be financially supporting through school. Edited January 31, 2020 by Calm 1
Robert F. Smith Posted January 31, 2020 Author Posted January 31, 2020 10 minutes ago, Calm said: ............................those are the type of RM I don't think the Church should be financially supporting through school. At BYU, students are expected to abide by the honor system. They agree to it in writing. If not, dump em. However, we gain nothing by making higher ed financially unreachable, and I don't hold with those who expect a student to work while in school. Let them devote full-time to their studies and graduate within 4 years. Beyond that, they are on their own. Carrot or cudgel, it is the same thing.
mfbukowski Posted February 1, 2020 Posted February 1, 2020 On 1/29/2020 at 9:11 PM, Hamba Tuhan said: I went to a regional training meeting in 2006 with a member of the Young Men general presidency. His message: bishops need to resume their places as presidents of the Aaronic Priesthood and presidents of the priest quorums. We were told specifically that the bishop was to attend every presidency meeting, every quorum meeting and every activity with his quorum. His counsellors were to do the same in each of their assigned quorums. The Young Men president presided not over the young men but only over the other two quorum advisers and any assistant advisers. (The handbook made this clear: the bishop was to call a priests quorum adviser who would also serve as the Young Men president ...) We followed this strictly in our ward, and we reaped a tremendous harvest. Wards in our stake that didn't reaped the whirlwind. It seems to me that the prophets are trying to make it harder and harder to get this one wrong. One can always hope. True. I remember those meetings.
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