Lds Only: Changes You'd Like to See in Church This Decade

[Calm]

11 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

deixis

Wow...it is rare that I see a word I don’t think I have ever seen before. Impressive. 
Added:  I see it is a linguistic term. Slightly less impressed, but still up there.  

Edited January 29, 2020 by Calm

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I'd like to see them stop changing things restored to Joseph Smith.

Meh, they lost me when Jesus started changing things He'd earlier revealed to Moses. I mean, where does it stop??? 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Perusing this thread makes me really grateful that most of you are not in charge of the Church! 

All the talk of 'out west' versus 'back east' makes me laugh. The fact is that the vast majority of young Latter-day Saints globally are never going to set foot on a BYU campus, and unless things have shifted dramatically from what Pres Hinckley told both my mission president and me in the 1990s, that is never going to change. Further, the deixis inherent in these discussions reminds me of what Elder Bednar said to us in our leadership training meeting with him six years ago: the American Saints are going to struggle more than anyone else to let go of the culture that has grown up around the Church but simply isn't a part of the Gospel -- but the growth of the global Church will require this.

I can't think of a worse way to destroy missionary work than to provide an economic incentive for the unconverted to clog up our missions.

Regarding fast offerings, there are people in my ward whose sole contact with the Church is a monthly visit from the deacons. We don't visit members who are already making fast offerings; we visit the others. I've never known anyone to decline. And in fact, one of the families I assigned myself to minister to asked for 'no contact' but welcomed the opportunity to resume paying fast offerings when I took the deacons to meet them as a bishopric member eights years ago. They have paid a generous fast offering regularly since, and we have grown so close that I'm a part of all major family events, including one this past Sunday.

By the way, visiting them is an hour's drive return. I don't know how we teach boys to be genuine ministers if we don't teach them that an 80km drive is worth it.

And the fact that the high councillors in Duncan's stake may not be magnifying their callings doesn't change what the high council is supposed to be doing.

Yet once again, a pull at your heartstrings story!

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Meh, they lost me when Jesus started changing things He'd earlier revealed to Moses. I mean, where does it stop??? 

Not remotely the same situation and you know it.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Not remotely the same situation and you know it.

'... whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same'.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Perusing this thread makes me really grateful that most of you are not in charge of the Church! 

I am glad too.

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

......................I can't think of a worse way to destroy missionary work than to provide an economic incentive for the unconverted to clog up our missions.................................

We could see it more as a rite of initiation for the youth, rather than requiring them to be paragons of good faith.  Deliberately mold them into mature men and women who know the Gospel and have had precious experiences away from home.  Followed by a Gi Bill for RMs.  Any college or trade school, as with the U.S. Armed Forces.  That investment pays huge dividends.  Could for the LDS as well.

[Hamba Tuhan]

17 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We could see it more as a rite of initiation for the youth, rather than requiring them to be paragons of good faith.  Deliberately mold them into mature men and women who know the Gospel and have had precious experiences away from home.

I have kept track of many of the missionaries from my mission on social media. Not one of those who was there, in my contemporary opinion, just to participate in a 'rite of initiation' is currently active.

Beyond this, young people in my nation have little trouble accessing post-secondary education. Our high schools conclude with year 10, which means that youth pursuing a trade can complete a three-year apprenticeship before serving a mission at age 19. (Which creates its own issues ...) Those planning to pursue university education enter two-year senior secondary colleges to seek to qualify for admission, and their studies are subsidised by the government, with no upfront costs.

You are, again, trying to universalise from an American perspective. Church leaders, as we've been told, are intentionally trying to move away from this.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It seems so mysterious to me, so far.  The young men and young women meeting together to decide what to do.  At least scouting had real structure.

He says it’s like being both bishop and YM President at the same time.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Wow...it is rare that I see a word I don’t think I have ever seen before. Impressive. 
Added:  I see it is a linguistic term. Slightly less impressed, but still up there.  

Usufruct?

Edited January 29, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It seems so mysterious to me, so far.  The young men and young women meeting together to decide what to do.  At least scouting had real structure.

The Church here has never been involved with Scouting; therefore, we've always needed to have young men and young women deciding what to do. It's easy to fail at this task by allowing adults to take over -- which is the main reason, I strongly suspect, that Young Men presidencies have been taken away. But once one genuinely trains up class and quorum presidencies, there's no stopping the good that they'll do, and the whole system becomes self-sustaining, with younger youth learning from the older ones how to lead out and make things happen.

[JLHPROF]

50 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

'... whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same'.

"...visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that "a prophet is always a prophet;" but I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such."

[Hamba Tuhan]

11 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

"...visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that "a prophet is always a prophet;" but I told them that a prophet was a prophet only when he was acting as such."

'I will give you one of the Keys of the mysteries of the Kingdom. It is an eternal principle, that has existed with God from all eternity: That man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way, while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly, that that man is in the high road to apostasy; and if he does not repent, will apostatize, as God lives'.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Deliberately mold them into mature men and women who know the Gospel and have had precious experiences away from home

Encouraging youth to do something they don't believe in so that they feel they are there to sell (not proselyte) more than anything else will not mature them in desirable ways imo.  Unless there is a way to determine why a missionary is there (and there really isn't beforehand), I see it more likely to cause what we don't want to create...people who find it useful to hide their true opinions and pretend to be something they are not and end up resenting the Church for it.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Usufruct?

Two in one day is good...but would be more impressive if you had used it naturally in the conversation.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Calm

[JLHPROF]

Del.  Never mind.  Not worth it.

Edited January 29, 2020 by JLHPROF

[Rain]

On 1/26/2020 at 10:03 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Quora has just asked: “As a Mormon, what are some changes you’d like to see from the LDS church this decade?”

About 19 people answered, most of them anti-Mormons.  My answer (Jan 26, 2020) was as follows, https://qr.ae/TDGq9h ,

I would like to see the following suggestions implemented in very serious manner:

1. Publish wholly new edition of Holy Scriptures based on best textual studies now available, including a new English translation of the Bible.

I know this was discussed with general authorities 10? Years ago. My gospel doctrine teacher worked in the scripture department. I never really could get from what he said though why they decided against it. Maybe just timing and the other projects already on the table. 

 

On 1/26/2020 at 10:03 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

3. Fully subsidized education for returned missionaries (RMs) via an expanded Church Educational System, either online, at university, or in trade school. All expenses paid.

While that would be cool for us since my son is currently out I don't like it tied to missions. It is really hard to be with companions who are there for other reasons.

And it works differently for women than men. Men are expected to go if able and worthy. Women if their answers to prayers tell them so.

A lot of people thought my daughter would go as she is very spiritually minded, but as she prayed about it then it didn't feel right. Had the educations paid for missionaries happen it may have changed what she did - and not necessarily reasons for going against the Spirit.

So while I can see that our individual family would be better off financially with it, I just don't see it working well.

 

[Rain]

 

Quote

Several have mentioned to me(one in PM) that BYUI has a large online schooling program. Well, I kind of intonated as much - but it is around 13,000 enrollees. Plus the 20,000 on campus, and the enrollment is higher than BYU Provo as I said. This option may be good for some, but one of my sons tried to take a difficult engineering class online last semester because that is all he could get. It didn't go well. He quickly fell behind. He tried to get tutoring, but had issues with that as well. Being an online class, he had no classmates to turn to for help. He is much happier with the live class. 

This is something that is changing as more students get online. My husband received his EE master's degree from online ASU a year ago. It took him 4 years doing it after work.  The online program had been in place quite a bit before he started though as he had wanted to do it for years before this, but timing wasn't right.

When he first started there were some real filming problems. I really encouraged him to reach out and tell them about it as he was paying for it. He did and the problems persisted. So he did again.  When timing got really tight for him I even called the college. By the time he graduated the filming had changed.

There were similar problems with testing, but many of those problems have been fixed, some of it because new technology is available. This last semester for my daughter she is doing half online and half in person.  Even some of her in person classes are tested online. 

We've found some professors are real good to get students connected online and some are not. One of the cool things about it is if students are given that option the professor is often also there assisting when students are not able. 

Many schools are now also trying to arrange for students to be able to get together in places local to them.

There is definitely something that can be had for in person classes that you can't get from online classes with students all over the world, but there are advantages to those online classes that you can't get in person as well. 

I know it's harder for those in school right now to say this, but I suspect that given another 5 years of experience many of the online schools will be doing so much better.

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Rain

[Rain]

18 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

We send kids on missions in distant lands, and they can't get on a bus or train to go to BYU? -- from the eastern USA, Canada, or a foreign land?  I came to BYU on a Greyhound Bus in 1963 from California, and only went back during the summer to make money (expenses were small in those days, and I paid for my own education). 

We have found with our work with asylum seekers that many plane rides cost less or the same than bus or train and are far less grueling. To get someone from Phoenix to New York may take 4 days by bus, but cost about the same.

That doesn't mean it is cheap. I sometimes get frustrated by all the deals from all over going to almost all over.  Here that doesn't happen near so often unless you want to go to China.

 

[Rain]

 

 

Quote

The Ward Council can be a great force for good. Most fall short. Same with the Stake High Council. As to Stake training....yeah, I am often less than impressed. I remember our Just Serve training. Over an hour of Stake Leaders talking about how important service and helping others is (duh!) with a hastily tacked on 10 minute piece on the end on how to make it happen. This is sadly not atypical.

 

Ugh. JustServe isn't to get people to serve more. Members already know service is good.  It is to help them serve more - meaning it is a source to help others find ways to serve and organizations who want to find volunteers and connect them together easily. 

So if your YM want to do service they don't need to sit endlessly wonder what they can do - they can get on JustServe (assuming it is running well in the area) and have many suggestions of what they can do. 

If you approach it as one more thing it becomes more the burden.  If you approach it as a help for what you are already needing or wanting to do it can make life easier for both the individual and the organization.

I really tried to teach the stake and ward leaders to use it as a tool - not just to find service to do, but to solve problems already in the ward.

Have a newly divorced man who is lonely? If you minister to him, work on JS projects together because service helps with depression and it is a way for men to connect without staring at each other in the living room.

Have a pregnant sister on bedrest? Find things on JS she can do to fill the time.

Have youth that are struggling with selfishness? Encourage them to find a JS project helping refugees, foster kids or the homeless for a youth activity.

The problem comes when you approach JS as a program or 1 more time to get beat over the head to do more service. Quit telling people they need or get ward members to do one more thing with JS and train people to change the way they look at solving problems already there using JS as another tool in their box.

But I will tell you from first hand experience that if your stake presidency doesn't get it then you will be unlikely for anyone to listen.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 29, 2020 by Rain

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Encouraging youth to do something they don't believe in so that they feel they are there to sell (not proselyte) more than anything else will not mature them in desirable ways imo.  Unless there is a way to determine why a missionary is there (and there really isn't beforehand), I see it more likely to cause what we don't want to create...people who find it useful to hide their true opinions and pretend to be something they are not and end up resenting the Church for it.

Perhaps all that is so.  Yet, I have much less confidence in the volitional aspects of what youth do.  Those are formative years, and we don't actually make real decisions about our future, but instead are jostled along by the crowd without knowing which way we are going.  A missionary program with large helpings of service might be just what the doctor ordered.  When those two years are up, they just might be more serious, discipline, and ready for an education and even marriage.  What we don't need is to leave them drifting and wondering what direction they should go.  They really do need help and structure.

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The Church here has never been involved with Scouting; therefore, we've always needed to have young men and young women deciding what to do. It's easy to fail at this task by allowing adults to take over -- which is the main reason, I strongly suspect, that Young Men presidencies have been taken away. But once one genuinely trains up class and quorum presidencies, there's no stopping the good that they'll do, and the whole system becomes self-sustaining, with younger youth learning from the older ones how to lead out and make things happen.

Sounds almost idyllic.

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I have kept track of many of the missionaries from my mission on social media. Not one of those who was there, in my contemporary opinion, just to participate in a 'rite of initiation' is currently active.

Beyond this, young people in my nation have little trouble accessing post-secondary education. Our high schools conclude with year 10, which means that youth pursuing a trade can complete a three-year apprenticeship before serving a mission at age 19. (Which creates its own issues ...) Those planning to pursue university education enter two-year senior secondary colleges to seek to qualify for admission, and their studies are subsidised by the government, with no upfront costs.

You are, again, trying to universalise from an American perspective. Church leaders, as we've been told, are intentionally trying to move away from this.

I find that approach very encouraging, and am well aware that other nations sometimes have educational and vocational programs far less obtuse than the American one.  In fact, the notion that free education should be over at the 12th grade seems absurd in the modern world.  We always seem to find a way to shoot ourselves in the foot.  I am recommending a way out of that fever swamp.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

A missionary program with large helpings of service might be just what the doctor ordered.  When those two years are up, they just might be more serious, discipline, and ready for an education and even marriage.  What we don't need is to leave them drifting and wondering what direction they should go.  They really do need help and structure.

I am all for missionary service with a large part on service.  I don't think using financial bribery is the way to get them committed though.

[Ahab]

I would like to see more brownies at Church this year, both giving and receiving.  Brownies make an excellent motivator, I think.  When I receive some, and eat some, I usually get a burst of energy and also a desire to do some good in the world that day.  And I count them as blessings that I can both receive and give to others.  Sometimes with nuts, sometimes not.  Big fudgy chewy brownies.  Even better than a cookie, I think.  What the world needs more of is brownies.

[Robert F. Smith]

38 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am all for missionary service with a large part on service.  I don't think using financial bribery is the way to get them committed though.

The military did it, and it has been a great success.  Commitment, strangely enough, comes by doing, even if there is an incentive.  This isn't the same as a mafia bribe for an ignoble or illegal purpose, but for a very high-minded aspiration.  Even if accepted for mercenary reasons, the fact of going through the motions has a salutary effect.

 

25 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I would like to see more brownies at Church this year, both giving and receiving.  Brownies make an excellent motivator, I think.  When I receive some, and eat some, I usually get a burst of energy and also a desire to do some good in the world that day.  And I count them as blessings that I can both receive and give to others.  Sometimes with nuts, sometimes not.  Big fudgy chewy brownies.  Even better than a cookie, I think.  What the world needs more of is brownies.

When I was Sunday School President many years ago, I visited the various youth classes.  In every one of them, the teachers brought along treats.  Were they "bribes"?  No.  The teachers were highly skilled and knew just what to say and how to say it, but those treats did set a tone.