Lds Only: Changes You'd Like to See in Church This Decade

[pogi]

I'd like to see the membership become a Zion people.  While there are always good changes that could be made (and I welcome them) to the organization, the more important changes (personal changes) don't require organizational manipulation.  

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

I'd like to see the membership become a Zion people.  While there are always good changes that could be made (and I welcome them) to the organization, the more important changes (personal changes) don't require organizational manipulation.  

I believe most members of the Church are pure in heart even though almost all of them and the rest of us are not as intelligent as we can be.  And I believe we all need encouragement and emotional support to become as good as we can be.

[Scott Lloyd]

27 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I haven't seen this done in my area for at least 15 years. Geographic area plays into this a lot.

Or, as a corollary, area and local leadership, perhaps. 

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I believe most members of the Church are pure in heart even though almost all of them and the rest of us are not as intelligent as we can be.  And I believe we all need encouragement and emotional support to become as good as we can be.

Wait you are saying that the saints are righteous enough but they are just too dumb?

[Meadowchik]

9 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The constitution would be the Doctrine and Covenants.

As I said, "It's also hard to find a constitution of sorts via scripture, as the modern church differs in many respects from those older administrations."

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Wait you are saying that the saints are righteous enough but they are just too dumb?

That's where your mind went, huh.  Incredible.  But, no, that is not what I was saying.

[The Nehor]

Just now, Ahab said:

That's where your mind went, huh.  Incredible.  But, no, that is not what I was saying.

Ah, another incident where you were using personal definitions of words then? I snorklebaum that whizzos disconfabulate that terrasimian if you know what I mean.

[pogi]

13 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I believe most members of the Church are pure in heart.

Not even close to being zion pure.  We have good people, but we are still weak in many ways.  I know I am.   I don't think we are any more pure in heart than members of most other faiths.  We certainly are not close to being ready to live the higher laws of consecration. 

17 minutes ago, Ahab said:

And I believe we all need encouragement and emotional support to become as good as we can be.

Agreed!

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, DispensatorMysteriorum said:

I live in the Saint Louis area. I think the last time the deacons were used to collect fast offerings here was around 1995, and it only happened once or twice. It isn't practical in an area like ours where the ward boundaries are about 50 miles north-south and 15 miles east-south, with members strewed from one end to the other. 

That’s certainly understandable. 
 

My contention was that it is no longer necessary even in wards like mine, where the meetinghouse is within walking distance of everyone in the ward boundaries. 

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Not even close to being zion pure.  We have good people, but we are still weak in many ways.  I know I am.   I don't think we are any more pure in heart than members of most other faiths.  We certainly are not close to being ready to live the higher laws of consecration. 

We're pure in heart enough to have accepted the restoration of the gospel and the priesthood, though, with all of the ordinances thereof.  We do have members who have lost so much faith that they are on the verge of leaving us, but for those who still believe and keep trying to be better people, I believe our Lord would say to us: Well done!  

... even though we all still have a long way to go to become as intelligent and loving and as good as he is.  But look at the progress we have already made and are still making!!!

Edited January 28, 2020 by Ahab

[mfbukowski]

On 1/26/2020 at 9:03 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Quora has just asked: “As a Mormon, what are some changes you’d like to see from the LDS church this decade?”

About 19 people answered, most of them anti-Mormons.  My answer (Jan 26, 2020) was as follows, https://qr.ae/TDGq9h ,

I would like to see the following suggestions implemented in very serious manner:

1. Publish wholly new edition of Holy Scriptures based on best textual studies now available, including a new English translation of the Bible.

2. The youth of the LDS Church to boldly “take the bull by the horns” in creating a full youth program — based on their own needs and initiative — as has already been suggested by Pres Nelson and other leaders. This should include a sound structure with excellent mentoring.

3. Fully subsidized education for returned missionaries (RMs) via an expanded Church Educational System, either online, at university, or in trade school. All expenses paid.

4. Purchase and operate two or three small colleges in central or eastern USA, as part of an expanded CES. Many colleges are now closing down, unable to obtain funding.

5. Build magnificent temple in Far West, Missouri, at the spot already dedicated for it, and then move the LDS Church Headquarters to Far West, or nearby Adam ondi Ahman.
-----------------------------------------------------------   
Other members answers to same question:
https://qr.ae/TDG3qf .
https://qr.ae/TDGBXE  .
https://qr.ae/TDGQsa  .
https://qr.ae/TDGQmI .
https://qr.ae/TDGdrw .
https://qr.ae/TDGd0h .

What is your answer, if any?  What would you like to see the Church do in the coming decade?

 

Great ideas and suggestions!

My only possible concern is item number three- the fully subsidized education.

It perhaps smacks of priestcraft?  

Perhaps it would be better to pick up the tab for missionary service, instead of leaving those expenses up to the family of the missionary?

Or does that sound MORE like priestcraft?

Either one would increase the missionary force and clearly those two years are VERY important years with young people considering college or military service, or trade school and asking young people to give away two very valuable years.  

Should the payments include all expenses up to the Phd. level?  Is that fair for others who might not want /need as much education to learn their trade?  How could that be decided?   Perhaps two years of education for two years of service, or some other arrangement ?

Is that fair to people with shorter missions, or say, service missionaries who must stay near home for health or other considerations?

At the very least I think some of the burden on families in sending out missionaries should be removed, to me it is just a question of which ones and how to do it.

But great ideas!   Moving Church headquarters?   Bravo!  Many many reasons why that is a good idea, maybe I will comment on that in a separate post, if I get the time to do so.

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

No, I have been in family wards for the last decade. The last time I saw this done was probably 1996 and I have not heard of a ward in the two areas I have lived in that have done it. Maybe it is a heartland thing or maybe my area has just dispensed with it.

As I said, I understand why it would have been discontinued — or never ever done — in wards with far flung boundaries. I’d like to see it eliminated everywhere. 

[pogi]

42 minutes ago, Ahab said:

We're pure in heart enough to have accepted the restoration of the gospel and the priesthood, though, with all of the ordinances thereof.  We do have members who have lost so much faith that they are on the verge of leaving us, but for those who still believe and keep trying to be better people, I believe our Lord would say to us: Well done!  

... even though we all still have a long way to go to become as intelligent and loving and as good as he is.  But look at the progress we have already made and are still making!!!

"Pure in heart enough"...is a good way to pacify the saints.

Quote

21 And others will he pacify, and lull them away into carnal security, that they will say: All is well in Zion; yea, Zion prospereth, all is well—and thus the devil dcheateth their souls, and leadeth them away carefully down to hell.

24 Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!

Just Sayin'!

I think you missed the point of my comment though.  My intent was not to criticize our members for not being good enough.  My point was that I think more good would come from focusing on changing ourselves for the better rather than focusing on changing the church.  We can manipulate the church in a thousand different ways to make it more enjoyable and to our likes, but none of that can do the important internal work for us.  I am all for organizational improvements, I am simply commenting on the weightier matter of personal improvement.    

Edited January 28, 2020 by pogi

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think you missed the point of my comment though.  My intent was not to criticize our members for not being good enough.  My point was that I think more good would come from focusing on changing ourselves for the better rather than focusing on changing the church.  We can manipulate the church in a thousand different ways to make it more enjoyable and to our likes, but none of that can do the important internal work for us.  I am all for organizational improvements, I am simply commenting on the weightier matter of personal improvement.    

Counterpoint: That would require me doing something and I am not sure if I am okay with that.

[Robert F. Smith]

35 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

..........................................

Perhaps it would be better to pick up the tab for missionary service, instead of leaving those expenses up to the family of the missionary?

................................. increase the missionary force and clearly those two years are VERY important years with young people considering college or military service, or trade school and asking young people to give away two very valuable years.  

Should the payments include all expenses up to the Phd. level?  Is that fair for others who might not want /need as much education to learn their trade?  How could that be decided?   Perhaps two years of education for two years of service, or some other arrangement ?

Is that fair to people with shorter missions, or say, service missionaries who must stay near home for health or other considerations?.........................................................

I was thinking of the baccalaureate level only, all expenses paid.  I hadn't considered local stay-at-home missionaries, many of whom are retired, and am only thinking of the youth.  The Church already picks up the tab for missions when a family cannot afford it.

The result of such emphasis on education in the Hindu and Jewish communities in the USA should be indicative:  96% of Hindus in the U.S. have college degrees, and 75% of Jews, while only 36% of Christians have degrees. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/13/jews-are-worlds-best-educated-religious-group-study-reveals

53.5% of LDS men have a post-secondary school education, while 44% of LDS women do as well.  At the same time, Utah produces more scientists than any other state, and most of those are LDS.  https://www.fairmormon.org/archive/publications/education-scholarship-and-mormonism

 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I haven't seen this done in my area for at least 15 years. Geographic area plays into this a lot.

Instead of increasing the number of students the church subsidizes it could simply get out of the education business altogether. It seems fair that they either subsidize all educations or none. Aside from Pathways, there is definitely a benefit to US students, and even more benefit to western US students.

Anyone can apply to BYU and the costs are far less than regular universities, so I don't see a bar to students from anywhere coming to a BYU campus.  It does not favor western U.S. students in any way, unless they live and commute from home in Utah Valley (only an extreme minority), and Utah Valley University is available for any Utah resident whose grades or SAT scores are not high enough to get into BYU.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

My son Abogadissimo who is serving as a bishop has been overwhelmed by the added responsibilities of the new youth program. That has been a huge challenge. Members and leaders really have to step up and embrace the new directions if it is going to work..............................................

It seems so mysterious to me, so far.  The young men and young women meeting together to decide what to do.  At least scouting had real structure.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

You seem to be arguing against yourself. Does the Church need another University back East or not? I thought you recommended it. Why? For one thing the travel to and from school for those back East or outside the country can be onerous. If you wish to teach there you are basically forced to live there - thus, drawing people to the west rather than building up the kingdom where they live. While BYU seems to strive not to discriminate based on residency, logistics alone serve to eliminate consideration for many who might choose to go there. It certainly did for me. I wanted my university to be at least within one days drive from my home - I was a 19 year old kid. I didn't want expensive plane rides, etc. If you don't get into BYU, the next obvious option is BYUI, which I believe has mushroomed in growth for these above reasons. Most don't get into BYU.  Yet it too is plagued with he same basic "unfairness" or favoritism towards those saints in the West. 

Several have mentioned to me(one in PM) that BYUI has a large online schooling program. Well, I kind of intonated as much - but it is around 13,000 enrollees. Plus the 20,000 on campus, and the enrollment is higher than BYU Provo as I said. This option may be good for some, but one of my sons tried to take a difficult engineering class online last semester because that is all he could get. It didn't go well. He quickly fell behind. He tried to get tutoring, but had issues with that as well. Being an online class, he had no classmates to turn to for help. He is much happier with the live class. 

The Church has recommended its modern youth to get an education - don't just rely on High School they advise. Then, it only subsidizes a few members willing to come to the intermountain west or Hawaii.... Again, it seems a little unfair to me, and not really supportive of a vast number of members. That is my problem with it - and it complains about those it does educate, while recommending they get an education, and it seems to be sitting on a vast pile of resources.

We send kids on missions in distant lands, and they can't get on a bus or train to go to BYU? -- from the eastern USA, Canada, or a foreign land?  I came to BYU on a Greyhound Bus in 1963 from California, and only went back during the summer to make money (expenses were small in those days, and I paid for my own education).  Separation anxiety from parents is absurd.  They need to strike out on their own for once.  Especially if they did it already on a mission.

However, part of my reason for advocating purchase of already extant colleges that are going broke is that it expands the ability of the Church to offer a 4-year education to more members.  Most of those colleges are in the mid-west or eastern USA.  Together with a recommendation that students get a two-year degree at a local junior college,  before transferring to a 4-year institution, the process can become far more efficient.

If we don't do this, our youth will be marrying later and having fewer children (if they marry and have any children at all) -- and paying less tithing.

[Robert F. Smith]

12 hours ago, Calm said:

I am not under the impression it is easier to get in to BYU now if you live Utah. UVU is now the largest university in the state for a reason. 
 

https://www.byu.edu/numbers

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints_membership_statistics_(United_States)

Utah has about 30% of all American Saints, so it doesn’t appear to be too over its ‘fair share’.

California has 10%...I wonder if this is intentional quota so many students per state. Idaho and Arizona are a bit high at 5% instead of 4.5%. 

Sure looks like a quota-system.

[JLHPROF]

I'd like to see them stop changing things restored to Joseph Smith.  But we all know that won't happen.  Just take our best guess on what goes next.

[JLHPROF]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Ah, another incident where you were using personal definitions of words then? I snorklebaum that whizzos disconfabulate that terrasimian if you know what I mean.

[mfbukowski]

On 1/26/2020 at 9:41 PM, Duncan said:

TBH what does the High Council do? They seem all but useless. I can possibly see sustaining new stake callings, but if the they changed EQ President to a ward sustaining, what is stopping them from sustaining a high councilor or Stake Primary President? What added bonus does a High Councilor have in announcing it? I used to be a travelling companion to several men on the High Council. All we literally did was speak in a ward and then leave. That was the calling. They spoke and left. I can see them for a disciplinary council, but how often do those happen? 

I get what you are saying but they are needed to train new bishops, presuming they are former bishops themselves, which is pretty much the case where I live.  EQ presidents must be called by the Stake because the SP is the only one with authority in the Priesthood to do so. 

So you would have to change the Melch. PH key structure to have the EQ called /sustained at the ward level.    I suppose if they can erase the Stake Seventies and make the High Priests disappear that could happen as well though. 

The main problem is when HC meets at the same time as when most wards are having their Ward Council and Bishopric meetings- otherwise the HC Rep should be at all those meetings so he CAN help the Bishop.  But it seems the universal time that both bodies meet is "early" before sacrament meeting, at least hereabouts.  That means that to go to your HC meeting you must NOT go to your assigned ward's Bishopric meeting.

Catch 22. 

And so the perception is that the HC "does nothing" except speak.  

 

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Clearly beyond all emaysification.

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

I get what you are saying but they are needed to train new bishops, presuming they are former bishops themselves, which is pretty much the case where I live.  EQ presidents must be called by the Stake because the SP is the only one with authority in the Priesthood to do so. 

So you would have to change the Melch. PH key structure to have the EQ called /sustained at the ward level.    I suppose if they can erase the Stake Seventies and make the High Priests disappear that could happen as well though. 

The main problem is when HC meets at the same time as when most wards are having their Ward Council and Bishopric meetings- otherwise the HC Rep should be at all those meetings so he CAN help the Bishop.  But it seems the universal time that both bodies meet is "early" before sacrament meeting, at least hereabouts.  That means that to go to your HC meeting you must NOT go to your assigned ward's Bishopric meeting.

Catch 22. 

And so the perception is that the HC "does nothing" except speak.  

 

We currently have 11 and I see 5 were former Bishops/Branch Presidents.One was a former Mission President, nice guy but english is not his forte so he's hard to understand. I don't know, I know we just got a new Bishop but the last one said that he hadn't attended bishopric training in about 2 years due to the fact that he would get the email the night before and he was like, sorry but I got plans. I can only think of one time I have ever attended a ward council with a HC rep. there and i've been attending ward councils for years and years.....and years......................!

We recently had someone turn down a HC calling-TBH I don't blame them one bit. One of the HC attends the Catholic Church and plagiarizes his talks and has caused a lot of problems but I think if they release him, he'll bail on the Church-I just say let him

Edited January 29, 2020 by Duncan

[Hamba Tuhan]

Perusing this thread makes me really grateful that most of you are not in charge of the Church! 

All the talk of 'out west' versus 'back east' makes me laugh. The fact is that the vast majority of young Latter-day Saints globally are never going to set foot on a BYU campus, and unless things have shifted dramatically from what Pres Hinckley told both my mission president and me in the 1990s, that is never going to change. Further, the deixis inherent in these discussions reminds me of what Elder Bednar said to us in our leadership training meeting with him six years ago: the American Saints are going to struggle more than anyone else to let go of the culture that has grown up around the Church but simply isn't a part of the Gospel -- but the growth of the global Church will require this.

I can't think of a worse way to destroy missionary work than to provide an economic incentive for the unconverted to clog up our missions.

Regarding fast offerings, there are people in my ward whose sole contact with the Church is a monthly visit from the deacons. We don't visit members who are already making fast offerings; we visit the others. I've never known anyone to decline. And in fact, one of the families I assigned myself to minister to asked for 'no contact' but welcomed the opportunity to resume paying fast offerings when I took the deacons to meet them as a bishopric member eights years ago. They have paid a generous fast offering regularly since, and we have grown so close that I'm a part of all major family events, including one this past Sunday.

By the way, visiting them is an hour's drive return. I don't know how we teach boys to be genuine ministers if we don't teach them that an 80km drive is worth it.

And the fact that the high councillors in Duncan's stake may not be magnifying their callings doesn't change what the high council is supposed to be doing.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan