Lds Only: Changes You'd Like to See in Church This Decade

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The military did it, and it has been a great success

I suspect that there is a different view of what is expected from you in the military and what is expected from a missionary and what kind of penalties exist for not meeting those expectations. Worst for missionary is to be sent home, so not much cost to committing to something solely for financial benefit and then deciding to drag one’s feet to do just enough not to be sent home. Which could mean staying in the apartment playing sick most of the time. 
 

Now what would happen if a soldier attempted to do that in boot camp?
 

Plus there is a huge difference in what is being expected and needed to achieve success...a great missionary believes deeply in the Gospel and wants to share it, feels the spirit and is able to communicate it to others. Those qualities are not nourished in an environment of deception. 

Just because subsidized education was a great solution for one need doesn’t mean it is a great solution for another. 

[Jeanne]

 Forgive me.  I know this thread is for LDS only.  I just wanted on behalf of so many of my family wish that within the next decades, there is a place for all levels of belief and respect for those who simply ask questions.  This is the bridge that will bring families and wards closer together.  In that, they reap a listening spirit that grows and changes can be made...not with just leadership..but by examples of true Christlike behavior.   Honesty.   Patience, and Love with service.  A church that represents individuals as well as groups with an eye on being just better today than we were yesterday.  Put money at the bottom of the todem pole. 

[mfbukowski]

17 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I can't think of a worse way to destroy missionary work than to provide an economic incentive for the unconverted to clog up our missions.

Regarding fast offerings, there are people in my ward whose sole contact with the Church is a monthly visit from the deacons. We don't visit members who are already making fast offerings; we visit the others. I've never known anyone to decline. And in fact, one of the families I assigned myself to minister to asked for 'no contact' but welcomed the opportunity to resume paying fast offerings when I took the deacons to meet them as a bishopric member eights years ago. They have paid a generous fast offering regularly since, and we have grown so close that I'm a part of all major family events, including one this past Sunday.

Seems conflicted, first paragraph vs the rest.

It's okay to have an economic incentive for deacons visits, but not missionaries.

It seems you are rejecting the spiritual advantages of simply having more missionaries out there., but it's okay for us to have all the Deacons going out collecting money, because it pays spiritual dividends.

So does having more missionaries.

And I think we can afford it.

But of course that's not my decision, and I have no clue about the details of either one.

Edited January 29, 2020 by mfbukowski

[strappinglad]

If the deacons took a 20% cut off the top of any fast offering they collected I could see a comparison with missionaries getting a free education after a mission. Otherwise, not really. 

[Tacenda]

[Hamba Tuhan]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Sounds almost idyllic.

It actually takes heaps of patience and work behind-the-scenes by both adult advisers and bishopric members. And the temptation is always there to just jump in and do it for them, as Elders Uchtdorf and Ballard have pointed out: 'Leaders may be inclined to conduct, provide the music, or pray at a youth fireside or other meeting, but they should be “shadow leaders,” overseeing the youth who perform these functions, President Uchtdorf says. “This can be a challenge for parents and leaders because they know that they can probably do it faster or better. It takes patience to let the youth do it'.

But when it starts taking hold, yeah, it's good! (Though never quite 'idyllic'.) When I was called as Young Men president in 2006, we didn't have a single functioning quorum presidency. (We only had three boys who regularly attended church, one deacon and two teachers.) Our sole active deacon was called and set apart as his quorum president. We worked with him for two years, and he never really got it. Then he turned 14 and was called as the teachers quorum president. One Sunday, something finally clicked. He understood that we really meant it when we told him he was the key-holder and was therefore in charge. That was the Sunday he asked me if I'd take him to visit the boys on the quorum list who weren't attending. I said sure, and off we went, clueless what we would find in the various homes.

Most of the boys we visited that day started coming to activities and then to church. It didn't happen overnight, but it happened. And their quorum president started understanding what it meant to plan activities with a purpose. After meeting a boy, he would consider what would attract that boy to an activity and go from there. If he didn't know, he'd ask.

By the time I was released in 2012, we regularly had 40 to 50 young men at our weekly mutual activities (not all of them members). All three Aaronic Priesthood quorums were organised and functioning. I was called to serve in the bishopric on my release and so continued to work with our boys, first in the deacons quorum (as second counsellor) and then in the teachers quorum (as first counsellor). Beginning during this time, we sent our first young man on a mission. He was followed by others. That process has never stopped. Two of the young men who started attending church in those early years eventually brought their whole families back with them, and each one had a younger brother who completed his mission last year.

I wish that had been the case with everyone, but it's not. A number of these young men have stopped attending as adults, but we're still connected, if that makes sense. One of them contacted me about a year ago. It was late evening, and he'd missed the last bus home from work. Would I come pick him up, he asked. It was a long drive to the airport (where he worked) and then to where he lives now, but I was happy to do it. In fact, I was thrilled that he knew that, after all these years, I would jump at the chance to help 'rescue' one of my boys.

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

In fact, the notion that free education should be over at the 12th grade seems absurd in the modern world.

Our public colleges are 'free' for years 11 and 12 (outside of certain class expenses). Our private colleges, of course, have tuition fees. Apprenticeships are paid but at a minimal rate. University study, though subsidised, can be quite costly, but the cost comes only after one begins working, and repayment amounts are based on earnings. It's not perfect, but it's a pretty good system, and it leaves our young people with zero excuses. Those without education or training have made that choice.

11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Commitment, strangely enough, comes by doing, even if there is an incentive.

There may be areas where this is true, but I don't believe Church participation of any kind is one of them. Serving a mission is hard and requires constant sacrifice and discipline. I've seen dozens of missionaries (both when I was one and later on, especially as a ward mission leader) who dutifully go through the motions but never surrender their wills to Christ. At the end of two years, they are worn out and keen for a reprieve. Apostate message boards are full of posters who made many of the same sacrifices as I did but reached the conclusion that none of what they were sharing was true and none of what they were doing was valuable because they never obtained the promised blessings.

In contrast, missionaries who surrender their whole souls to Christ come to know Him personally. They see miracles. They learn how to obtain revelation. They have angels as their companions. At the end of two years, they are tired but filled with a joyful conviction and a desire to never stop serving. About three months ago, I spoke to a former Elder who served in our former ward for nearly half his mission. He told me he felt odd because spiritually he is stronger now than he was as a missionary. I laughed out loud and told him that's the goal. He's from Salt Lake City and said he's surrounded by people who seem to have peaked on their missions. I told him I am glad he isn't one of those! This is a young man who was forever changed by his missionary service. He came to understand that He loves the things of God more than anything else.

When I was YM president, the analogy I liked to use with the boys was two young men who attended church early on a winter's morning. The first boy prepared for church all week. He pondered the scriptures and prayed sincerely. He sought daily opportunities to repent. He looked forward to partaking of the sacrament. He was prepared for his lessons. He was keen to perform his priesthood duties in relation to the sacrament. At church, he looked around for who was there and who was missing. He sought opportunities to speak with the lonely or sad. He volunteered to take the sacrament to a sick member afterwards.

The second boy's sole weekly prayers were with his family over meals. He didn't find time to read in the scriptures or prepare for his lessons. He didn't care that he had said hurtful things to his annoying little sister. He played computer games with his mates till 2:00 Sunday morning and got out of bed four hours later only after the third time his parents went in to wake him. He made his family just late enough that he wasn't able to help with the sacrament, and he spent all sacrament meeting and thereafter counting down the minutes till he could go home with his family, eat something, and crash out for a nap.

Both boys woke up early on a cold Sunday morning. Both got ready for and went to church. Both partook of the sacrament. Both attended the same meetings and heard the same sermons and lessons. Only one of them, however, will have obtained any personal evidence that what he was doing was true or even worthwhile. There is a high likelihood that the other one went home not just with nothing but harbouring some resentment towards the Church.

The last thing we need to do is add to the ranks of disillusioned former missionaries who just went through the motions outside of any personal conversion or conviction. I'm strongly of the opinion that it damages them because they think that they then have evidence that the Restored Gospel doesn't actually work and therefore isn't true.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Hamba Tuhan

[ERMD]

23 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

He says it’s like being both bishop and YM President at the same time.

That's exactly what it is.  The adults are essentially being asked to become more self-sufficient and quit clogging up the bishop's calendar with "issues."

One can always hope.

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

13 minutes ago, ERMD said:

The adults are essentially being asked to become more self-sufficient and quit clogging up the bishop's calendar with "issues."

One can always hope.

I went to a regional training meeting in 2006 with a member of the Young Men general presidency. His message: bishops need to resume their places as presidents of the Aaronic Priesthood and presidents of the priest quorums. We were told specifically that the bishop was to attend every presidency meeting, every quorum meeting and every activity with his quorum. His counsellors were to do the same in each of their assigned quorums. The Young Men president presided not over the young men but only over the other two quorum advisers and any assistant advisers. (The handbook made this clear: the bishop was to call a priests quorum adviser who would also serve as the Young Men president ...) We followed this strictly in our ward, and we reaped a tremendous harvest. Wards in our stake that didn't reaped the whirlwind. It seems to me that the prophets are trying to make it harder and harder to get this one wrong.

One can always hope.

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, ERMD said:

That's exactly what it is.  The adults are essentially being asked to become more self-sufficient and quit clogging up the bishop's calendar with "issues."

One can always hope.

 

Except that many people have real issues that they may not be comfortable sharing with the counselors or EQ and RS presidents. After almost two centuries of practice, it may take some real effort to make that switch.

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It actually takes heaps of patience and work behind-the-scenes by both adult advisers and bishopric members. And the temptation is always there to just jump in and do it for them, as Elders Uchtdorf and Ballard have pointed out: 'Leaders may be inclined to conduct, provide the music, or pray at a youth fireside or other meeting, but they should be “shadow leaders,” overseeing the youth who perform these functions, President Uchtdorf says. “This can be a challenge for parents and leaders because they know that they can probably do it faster or better. It takes patience to let the youth do it'.

This takes me back to the “shadow leadership” we were taught as leaders in the late 70s. Maybe we weren’t ready for it back then. I hope it works better now.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

This takes me back to the “shadow leadership” we were taught as leaders in the late 70s. Maybe we weren’t ready for it back then. I hope it works better now.

Very few things are actually new. But modern Israel, like its ancient counterpart, is often thick, stubborn, slow to hear, and quick to rebel.

[Rain]

 

12 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

...

In contrast, missionaries who surrender their whole souls to Christ come to know Him personally. They see miracles. They learn how to obtain revelation. They have angels as their companions. At the end of two years, they are tired but filled with a joyful conviction and a desire to never stop serving. About three months ago, I spoke to a former Elder who served in our former ward for nearly half his mission. He told me he felt odd because spiritually he is stronger now than he was as a missionary. I laughed out loud and told him that's the goal. He's from Salt Lake City and said he's surrounded by people who seem to have peaked on their missions. I told him I am glad he isn't one of those! This is a young man who was forever changed by his missionary service. He came to understand that He loves the things of God more than anything else....

I always hated hearing "it was the best 2 years of my life" from men who had a wife and children.  Somehow people get the idea that you only serve the Lord full time while on your mission.  They have an easier time comprehending that family time is serving the Lord, but don't realize how much they could be accomplishing their life's mission even while working at McDonalds or as an accountant.  

 

[bluebell]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Except that many people have real issues that they may not be comfortable sharing with the counselors or EQ and RS presidents. After almost two centuries of practice, it may take some real effort to make that switch.

I think that's the change that people are going to have to grasp (and it'll take time).  Unless it specifically has to do with repentance or welfare, the bishop is not anymore capable or qualified to deal with real issues than the counselors, RS, and EQ presidents are.  He has no special keys or authority to do so.  

We've been taught and conditioned to see the bishop as the father of the ward and now we are having to fix the mistake.  Like you said, it's going to be a hard transition for a lot of people.   

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/29/2020 at 1:36 AM, Calm said:

Two in one day is good...but would be more impressive if you had used it naturally in the conversation.

I originally did, but then I edited it out of fear of being misunderstood and derailing the thread. One of my favorites words.

[Bernard Gui]

On 1/29/2020 at 7:19 AM, Rain said:

 

This is something that is changing as more students get online. My husband received his EE master's degree from online ASU a year ago. It took him 4 years doing it after work.  The online program had been in place quite a bit before he started though as he had wanted to do it for years before this, but timing wasn't right.

When he first started there were some real filming problems. I really encouraged him to reach out and tell them about it as he was paying for it. He did and the problems persisted. So he did again.  When timing got really tight for him I even called the college. By the time he graduated the filming had changed.

There were similar problems with testing, but many of those problems have been fixed, some of it because new technology is available. This last semester for my daughter she is doing half online and half in person.  Even some of her in person classes are tested online. 

We've found some professors are real good to get students connected online and some are not. One of the cool things about it is if students are given that option the professor is often also there assisting when students are not able. 

Many schools are now also trying to arrange for students to be able to get together in places local to them.

There is definitely something that can be had for in person classes that you can't get from online classes with students all over the world, but there are advantages to those online classes that you can't get in person as well. 

I know it's harder for those in school right now to say this, but I suspect that given another 5 years of experience many of the online schools will be doing so much better.

 

There are those who are predicting teacherless education for many subjects in the near future. They will be replaced by the computer.

[Bernard Gui]

21 hours ago, Calm said:

I am all for missionary service with a large part on service.  I don't think using financial bribery is the way to get them committed though.

A close friend has been at the leadership level of the Perpetual Education Fund and microloan program from their inception. They were never considered bribery.

[Bernard Gui]

23 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think that's the change that people are going to have to grasp (and it'll take time).  Unless it specifically has to do with repentance or welfare, the bishop is not anymore capable or qualified to deal with real issues than the counselors, RS, and EQ presidents are.  He has no special keys or authority to do so.  

We've been taught and conditioned to see the bishop as the father of the ward and now we are having to fix the mistake.  Like you said, it's going to be a hard transition for a lot of people.   

I agree, but I would not go so far as calling it a mistake. 

[Bernard Gui]

20 hours ago, Calm said:

I suspect that there is a different view of what is expected from you in the military and what is expected from a missionary and what kind of penalties exist for not meeting those expectations. Worst for missionary is to be sent home, so not much cost to committing to something solely for financial benefit and then deciding to drag one’s feet to do just enough not to be sent home. Which could mean staying in the apartment playing sick most of the time. 

Plus there is a huge difference in what is being expected and needed to achieve success...a great missionary believes deeply in the Gospel and wants to share it, feels the spirit and is able to communicate it to others. Those qualities are not nourished in an environment of deception. 

Just because subsidized education was a great solution for one need doesn’t mean it is a great solution for another. 

Some elders and sisters already do that.

Is the PEF subsidized education? I don’t think it is, but perhaps you disagree.
 

Quote

You will work together with your bishop or branch president to decide if you qualify for a PEF loan. You will need his endorsement to begin the application process. The three qualifications are worthy, needy, and determined.

Worthy

Qualifying for a PEF loan starts with living the gospel and qualifying for and receiving a temple recommend (limited use recommends also apply).

Needy

PEF funds are sacred and are meant only for members with significant financial need.

Think about all your different sources of income (your own and your family’s) to pay for school. This can include grants and scholarships. If you need help learning different ways to pay for your education, see Education for Better Work, pages 95–116, or contact your stake self-reliance specialist or your local self-reliance center.

Determined

You will need to work hard, diligently study, and overcome challenges to graduate from your program, find a better job, pay back your loan, and become self-reliant.

Why you need to pay back your loan

Each time you make a loan repayment, you create the opportunity for someone else to become self-reliant through education. Your honesty in returning the funds you borrowed will bless your life, your family, and the lives of those who follow you.

Going into enormous debt to get an education can be crippling for many. A program like the PEF could be a blessing for them. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

A close friend has been at the leadership level of the Perpetual Education Fund and microloan program from their inception. They were never considered bribery.

I do not consider them bribery.  The suggestion that all potential missionaries be told by the Church 'we will completely subsidize your education without you having to pay anything back if you go on a mission' counts as potential bribery in my view.  I love the PEP and microloan projects, always have.

I would have no problem with the Church setting up a very low interest loan program for all returned missionaries at all levels of education.  I think that would be very helpful for those who want to get married younger, but worry about student loan debt.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Some elders and sisters already do that.

And reading posts by many who say they are only staying because their parents will pay for college that way or buy them a new car is why I am strongly against automatic full subsidies for all.

Quote

Is the PEF subsidized education? I don’t think it is, but perhaps you disagree.

Robert was talking about the success of the GI bill as evidence it was a good idea for returned missionaries.  That was the only thing I was referring to. That is imo a great program, but it involves very different parameters and penalties.

Edited January 30, 2020 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

I do not consider them bribery.  The suggestion that all potential missionaries be told by the Church 'we will completely subsidize your education without you having to pay anything back if you go on a mission' counts as potential bribery in my view.  I love the PEP and microloan projects, always have.

I would have no problem with the Church setting up a very low interest loan program for all returned missionaries at all levels of education.  I think that would be very helpful for those who want to get married younger, but worry about student loan debt.

Extending the PEF to all was a suggestion I made early in this thread for a change I would like to see.

[Calm]

31 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Extending the PEF to all was a suggestion I made early in this thread for a change I would like to see.

Yep.  

I didn't go explicitly as far, but it amounts to the same if expansion continues.

Quote

I am very supportive of educational programs for all members, I think Pathways and the PEP are great and efforts should keep expanding.

 

[Robert F. Smith]

15 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

It actually takes heaps of patience and work behind-the-scenes by both adult advisers and bishopric members. And the temptation is always there to just jump in and do it for them, as Elders Uchtdorf and Ballard have pointed out: 'Leaders may be inclined to conduct, provide the music, or pray at a youth fireside or other meeting, but they should be “shadow leaders,” overseeing the youth who perform these functions, President Uchtdorf says. “This can be a challenge for parents and leaders because they know that they can probably do it faster or better. It takes patience to let the youth do it'.

An excellent principle, and possibly the whole intention of the Brethren in this new approach.  In California, I was once a member of a ward which had a Federal Prison in its boundaries, so the bishop (who was regarded by that Prison as the primary spiritual authority for the LDS prisoners, even though all of them were ex-communicants) had as many of us as possible volunteer to visit the Prison on Sundays -- in rotation.  The Prison required a tight background check and they provided training as to the rules inside.  When we visited (two of us each Sunday), we did not run the show, but simply came to lend moral support to the Mormon men -- who organized everything, from playing piano, prayer, sunday school, etc.  I was quite taken with their strong sense of initiative.  There was no Sacrament.  They would occasionally request additional hymnbooks, scriptures, lesson manuals, and CDs of Conference, and we would pass along their request to the bishop, who alone had authority from the Prison to respond to those needs.  Those Mormon men were delighted to have us there, and always wanted to know what was going on outside.

15 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

.......................................

I wish that had been the case with everyone, but it's not. A number of these young men have stopped attending as adults, but we're still connected, if that makes sense. One of them contacted me about a year ago. It was late evening, and he'd missed the last bus home from work. Would I come pick him up, he asked. It was a long drive to the airport (where he worked) and then to where he lives now, but I was happy to do it. In fact, I was thrilled that he knew that, after all these years, I would jump at the chance to help 'rescue' one of my boys.

...................... it's a pretty good system, and it leaves our young people with zero excuses. Those without education or training have made that choice.

There may be areas where this is true, but I don't believe Church participation of any kind is one of them. Serving a mission is hard and requires constant sacrifice and discipline. I've seen dozens of missionaries (both when I was one and later on, especially as a ward mission leader) who dutifully go through the motions but never surrender their wills to Christ........................................

Both boys woke up early on a cold Sunday morning. Both got ready for and went to church. Both partook of the sacrament. Both attended the same meetings and heard the same sermons and lessons. Only one of them, however, will have obtained any personal evidence that what he was doing was true or even worthwhile. There is a high likelihood that the other one went home not just with nothing but harbouring some resentment towards the Church.

The last thing we need to do is add to the ranks of disillusioned former missionaries who just went through the motions outside of any personal conversion or conviction. I'm strongly of the opinion that it damages them because they think that they then have evidence that the Restored Gospel doesn't actually work and therefore isn't true.

Those are pretty tall orders for the youth.  Not much room for repentance, even at a later date.  Things are not so set in stone as you suggest.  Some youth are late bloomers, and we should not write them off so easily.  The example you give of one young man who suddenly "got it" is indicative of the need to be far more patient.

That bishop I mentioned above felt at one point that he had not been an adequate father to his two sons, who basically ignored the Church.  However, in their early twenties, they suddenly came back to Church and finally got married in the L.A. Temple.  I heard that bishop bear his testimony about all that by saying that all you can do is love them and leave the rest to the Lord.

[Robert F. Smith]

23 hours ago, Calm said:

I suspect that there is a different view of what is expected from you in the military and what is expected from a missionary and what kind of penalties exist for not meeting those expectations. Worst for missionary is to be sent home, so not much cost to committing to something solely for financial benefit and then deciding to drag one’s feet to do just enough not to be sent home. Which could mean staying in the apartment playing sick most of the time. 
 

Now what would happen if a soldier attempted to do that in boot camp?
 

Plus there is a huge difference in what is being expected and needed to achieve success...a great missionary believes deeply in the Gospel and wants to share it, feels the spirit and is able to communicate it to others. Those qualities are not nourished in an environment of deception. 

Just because subsidized education was a great solution for one need doesn’t mean it is a great solution for another. 

Good points, yes, but condemning our recalcitrant youth to a life without a real initiation is unnecessarily cruel.  For a so-called "man" that is very important.  Especially today,

Like the late Pres Monson, I did not go on a mission (last thing on my mind), but instead went to boot camp at age 17.  In my case, it was Marine Corps boot camp, which was not easy ().  A true initiation.  I definitely needed those years of discipline and learning, so that by the time I was 21 and finishing my 4-year contract with the USMC, I actually had the capacity to think mature thoughts and take responsibility, and that has always stood me in good stead.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

condemning our recalcitrant youth to a life without a real initiation is unnecessarily cruel. 

Not seeing how the Church not footing the bill of a missionary's education takes you to no real initiation.

If anything, it might be prone to extend childhood for those whose parents, family, or ward pay for their mission and then they get university paid for as long as they want as well. 
 

Real initiation rites/process tend to have a significant penalty for those who lack commitment or follow through. Not being a dedicated missionary may make a difference personally and to one’s companions, but when one is back home or at school no one will have a clue unless one tells them.  One is not treated differently. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Calm