Coming Soon to a Strip-ping Mall Near You - Topless Women

[pogi]

You can read about the case here. A Utah judge has heard the case and will be handing down a ruling within 2 months.  The decision could be a stepping stone toward making it legal for women to walk around bare-breasted in public in Utah.  The ACLU attorney arguing the case makes the following argument:

Quote

“What’s important to look at, to see when you look at the statute, is that there’s part of it that says this part of a woman is inherently obscene and this part of a man isn’t,” said Leah Farrell, the senior attorney at the American Civil Liberties Union of Utah who argued on Buchanan’s behalf. “And that really sets up an unequal, unfair dichotomy.”

I have not read the statute to confirm if it actually says "inherently obscene".  If it does, I agree that needs to be changed.  There is nothing inherently obscene about breasts (male or female), but neither is there anything inherently obscene about genitals (male or female).  It is more about what violates long-held cultural decency and civility, and what is considered "lewd" by society.  What is considered "lewd" is in fact defined by culture, and so lewdness statutes absolutely should consider cultural attitudes.  

How could that affect TV and movie ratings?  Local television shows could have bare breasted women at the beach alongside shirtless men - taking Baywatch to the next level, and there would be nothing to stop them.  What has historically and culturally been considered pornography and was restricted for consumption or viewing under 18 years old, will now be available for children of any age to legally view and consume.  In fact, they may not even have a choice if they want to view it or not as any women could expose herself in public. 

The feminist in you may argue that our culture needs to change how it perceive the female breast.  I actually think that would be a good thing if one could succeed at culturally desexualizing women's breasts.  I think that would be great, honestly!  If you can succeed in changing long-held cultural norms of civility and decency, by all means I have no problem with changing the law at that point if you can succeed at getting young boys and men, and most women too, to view the women's breast no different from men's - Good luck!  It is the culture that defines what is lewd and the law should be erected around that cultural norm.  Otherwise, what would prevent the law from making genitals legal to make bare if culture had no bearing on the law?  There is nothing "inherently" obscene about it, after all.    

Edited November 20, 2019 by pogi

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

It is so disturbing, the direction in which our world today is devolving. 

[Ahab]

I've always felt that it was lewd for men to go around topless, with some people thinking it isn't for men but it is for women.  I say it is lewd for men to walk around in public that way too. 

So if any changes are necessary I would say we should make it a violation of public decency law for men to go around topless in public.  Let's level the playing field but let's do it the right way.

Edited November 20, 2019 by Ahab

[Calm]

Are there any states that have laws that would parallel what Utah’s might become?  Have they shown any sign of a trend of women going topless in public?

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are there any states that have laws that would parallel what Utah’s might become?  Have they shown any sign of a trend of women going topless in public?

This is the craziest thing I've seen. I can't imagine a world like this, but maybe it will come to it. And if Utah is the first state to do so, won't this fly in the face of the church?

[provoman]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

You can read about the case here. all.    

Yes Utah law indicate the female breast is  "lewd" (and so it would not be inaccurate to say "inherently obscene) and it is a crime for a woman to be topless except when breast feeding; while Utah law says nothing about the male areola, nipple, or breast.

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are there any states that have laws that would parallel what Utah’s might become?  Have they shown any sign of a trend of women going topless in public?

If reddit comments can be accepted, then people in places (in the US) where female toplessness is not prohibited, stated that there was no rise in seeing topless females. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by provoman

[Maidservant]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

 feminist

"woman" or "human being"

it's not the ism that drives the desire to be free and safe; it's the being a person that does, and that may collate those desires into an ism

////////////////////////////////////

I'm an anarchist, so I don't ever think legislation is the solution to anything.

But I do hope that over the long arc (but as short as possible), yes, the human body is approached with nothing but sacredness and compassion and ordinariness and yet awe at how extraordinary, regardless and completely independent from, clothing choices and degree of revelation of the body. And that clothing can go back to being about shelter and artistry. I don't know that we're prepared to do so in this society and certainly not globally; I think quite a few more paradigm pieces and character/healing pieces need to take place and probably talking decades if not generations. That level of state of body peace can't be forced (legislatively), although it's nice for the instance to be decriminalized (legislatively) in order to have the room to explore the possible progression on a personal/community level if one felt led to do so.

[pogi]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

Are there any states that have laws that would parallel what Utah’s might become?  Have they shown any sign of a trend of women going topless in public?

I doubt that there is a solid trend - I don't know how that could even be measured - but I have read articles of cases on college campuses etc.  I am concerned about even one case of indecent exposure, especially to children, being un-punishable.  I doubt we would see a significant trend in complete public nudity if the law allowed it because it is still culturally frowned upon, but there are still good reasons for the law. 

If it becomes legal nationally, wouldn't we have to re-examine pornography laws - what is acceptable and what is not acceptable for children to view?  Pictures and videos of female breasts have historically been illegal for viewers under 18 - are we comfortable giving the media the right to exploit and objectify the female body even further? Do we really think they wont?  They will continue to sexualize it in even more graphic ways.  The culture is not going to change any time soon, and I think we need to protect our cultural sensibilities against the few.     

[rodheadlee]

Shoes and Shirts must be worn, No shoes no shirt no service. 

I see the signs everywhere at the beach. For establishments near the beach

[pogi]

34 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

"woman" or "human being"

I'm not sure what you mean here.  Can't a person be both?

34 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

it's not the ism that drives the desire to be free and safe; it's the being a person that does, and that may collate those desires into an ism

Free, as in anarchy free?  I don't think that "being a person" is intrinsically tied to the ideals of anarchy.  Maybe I am misunderstanding you.  Anarchy certainly doesn't make one "safe".

34 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

I'm an anarchist, so I don't ever think legislation is the solution to anything.

Legislation has demonstrably been the solution to countless atrocities and injustices and in protecting our liberties by law.

34 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

But I do hope that over the long arc (but as short as possible), yes, the human body is approached with nothing but sacredness and compassion and ordinariness and yet awe at how extraordinary, regardless and completely independent from, clothing choices and degree of revelation of the body. And that clothing can go back to being about shelter and artistry. I don't know that we're prepared to do so in this society and certainly not globally; I think quite a few more paradigm pieces and character/healing pieces need to take place and probably talking decades if not generations. 

 That is very idealistic and would require a Zion people.  

34 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

That level of state of body peace can't be forced (legislatively), although it's nice for the instance to be decriminalized (legislatively) in order to have the room to explore the possible progression on a personal/community level if one felt led to do so.

I agree, Zion cannot be brought about through legislation.  But removing all law will certainly be an even larger stumbling block for the establishment of Zion.

Your freedom to "explore" cannot rob my freedom to walk in public without being civilly violated.

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by pogi

[mfbukowski]

This is more about a culture of weirdness about nudity- only in Utah......  Her step kids doing this?   Just plain bizarre.

The kids ask about it and now she goes into the whole feminist thing about breasts?

Reminds me about the old joke about a kid who asked his father where he came from. 

Dad gulps and goes on and tells the birds and the bees in detail.  At the end he says- "Well Bobby do you have any questions?"

Bobby says "Uh, I guess not dad.   It's just that my friend Johnny came from Cincinnati and I just wondered where I came from too".

She couldn't have just said "Oh- it was hot and we took our shirts off.  We worked hard today!  Now where should we go for dinner?" ?

A 13 year old and a 10 and 9 year old went after their parents because of this?

It says a lot more about family weirdness than anything else

Edited November 20, 2019 by mfbukowski

[provoman]

 

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

I doubt that there is a solid trend - I don't know how that could even be measured - but I have read articles of cases on college campuses etc.  I am concerned about even one case of indecent exposure, especially to children, being un-punishable.  I doubt we would see a significant trend in complete public nudity if the law allowed it because it is still culturally frowned upon, but there are still good reasons for the law. 

If it becomes legal nationally, wouldn't we have to re-examine pornography laws - what is acceptable and what is not acceptable for children to view?  Pictures and videos of female breasts have historically been illegal for viewers under 18 - are we comfortable giving the media the right to exploit and objectify the female body even further? Do we really think they wont?  They will continue to sexualize it in even more graphic ways.  The culture is not going to change any time soon, and I think we need to protect our cultural sensibilities against the few.     

Here is the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling on the Fort Collins topless ban. The ruling addresses various arguments in favor of female only topless ban which the Court did not agree with and agreed that a female only topless  ban is presumptively unConstitutional.

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

This is more about a culture of weirdness about nudity- only in Utah......  Her step kids doing this?   Just plain bizarre.

I don't know if it is that bizarre, and I don't think it is that unique to Utah.  If I was a teenager and my dad took on a new wife, I would feel terribly uncomfortable, embarrassed, violated, and maybe even sexually aroused all at once, if she walked around topless in the home.  Hollywood has made movies about it - well, not completely nude (well, they probably have that too), but...   

Quote

 

Bill : I mean, Mom.

[she smiles and puts on her Ray-Bans] 

Ted : [whispering to Bill]  Your stepmom's cute.

Bill : Shut up, Ted.

Ted : Remember when she was a senior and we were freshmen?

Bill : Shut up, Ted!

Ted : Now your dad's going for it in your own room!

Bill : Shut up, Ted.

Ted : Your stepmom *is* cute, though.

Bill : Shut up, Ted!

Ted : Remember when I asked her to the prom?
 
Later...
[Ted stares down Missy's shirt as she leans forward, and then looks over and catches Bill staring as well]  It's your *MOM* dude!
Bill : SHUT UP, TED!

 

I agree there is definitely some family weirdness though!

Edited November 20, 2019 by pogi

[Ahab]

Just read the news story.  This is not about women walking around topless in shopping malls.  This is a woman who took her top off because of the heat while working in her garage in her own home, and her own children saw her.

Oh No!  Women everywhere in Utah are going to start walking around topless in their own homes now!  

I didn't catch it if the news article mentioned who filed the charges.  I'm guessing just some nosey neighbor walking by who noticed her.

[provoman]

19 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Just read the news story.  This is not about women walking around topless in shopping malls.  This is a woman who took her top off because of the heat while working in her garage in her own home, and her own children saw her.

Oh No!  Women everywhere in Utah are going to start walking around topless in their own homes now!  

I didn't catch it if the news article mentioned who filed the charges.  I'm guessing just some nosey neighbor walking by who noticed her.

 

The topless in front of kids incident was reported a month or more after it happened.

The incident came known to police/CPS because it was mentioned while police/CPS were investigating a unrelated issue.

Pure speculation but it appears that one or both of the biological parents have weaponized child protective service and/or the police to continue post divorce attacks on another.

Edited November 20, 2019 by provoman

[MustardSeed]

For what it's worth, most topless women are not going to be categorized as erotica any more than exposing my shoulders would be.  Sorry, but that's just the harsh realty.

I don't think it's a good idea but then again I don't care that there are nude places in the world, and if Utah wants to be one of those, so be it.  Unless someone is getting paid to do so, like as a barista, your average Jane walking around with no top on is really kind of, well, gross. 

 

  

 

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Just read the news story.  This is not about women walking around topless in shopping malls.  This is a woman who took her top off because of the heat while working in her garage in her own home, and her own children saw her.

Oh No!  Women everywhere in Utah are going to start walking around topless in their own homes now!  

I didn't catch it if the news article mentioned who filed the charges.  I'm guessing just some nosey neighbor walking by who noticed her.

I think you missed that the ACLU is arguing a much larger constitutional point.  If they win this case, that is just the beginning... 

It wasn’t a neighbor, it was her step-children.

[strappinglad]

In the Canadian province of Ontario, it was ruled that women could go topless in public. Mostly activists do it to score political points.

Anyone actually looking is still considered   to be " assaulting with their eyes" though. 

Fortunately there are not many days when the weather allows such without personal consequence. 

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, provoman said:

 

The topless in front of kids incident was reported a month or more after it happened.

The incident came known to police/CPS because it was mentioned while police/CPS were investigating a unrelated issue.

Pure speculation but it appears that one or both of the biological parents have weaponized child protective service and/or the police to continue post divorce attacks on another.

There you go- thanks!

[mrmarklin]

Having travelled extensively in Germany where bare breasted sun bathing in public parks and beaches is fairly common, I can say that allowing women to display their breasts for all to see can be a mixed blessing.

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, provoman said:

 

The topless in front of kids incident was reported a month or more after it happened.

The incident came known to police/CPS because it was mentioned while police/CPS were investigating a unrelated issue.

Pure speculation but it appears that one or both of the biological parents have weaponized child protective service and/or the police to continue post divorce attacks on another.

That is sad if true.  My concern for our larger society is that the ACLU is jumping on board to take advantage too, it seems.

[rchorse]

5 minutes ago, mrmarklin said:

Having travelled extensively in Germany where bare breasted sun bathing in public parks and beaches is fairly common, I can say that allowing women to display their breasts for all to see can be a mixed blessing.

If by mixed you mean 99.99% awful, then I fully agree.

[mrmarklin]

On another note, nudity on television is common all over continental Europe.  Regular TV, not subscription.

I was watching a morning soap opera in Spain a few years ago, and there was a nude scene.  This was around ten in the morning.

So, there's culture and then there's culture.  Some of you need to get out more.

Edited November 20, 2019 by mrmarklin

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Ahab said:

I've always felt that it was lewd for men to go around topless, with some people thinking it isn't for men but it is for women.  I say it is lewd for men to walk around in public that way too. 

So if any changes are necessary I would say we should make it a violation of public decency law for men to go around topless in public.  Let's level the playing field but let's do it the right way.

Do you really wear a top when you go swimming?

[mfbukowski]

3 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

For what it's worth, most topless women are not going to be categorized as erotica any more than exposing my shoulders would be.  Sorry, but that's just the harsh realty.

 

How could you possibly know?  So womansplain what men find erotic then won't you?

Sorry but that's the harsh reality.

Tell Hugh Hefner that men do not find women's breasts "erotic".  He built an empire on it.

 Sure it's cultural- so what?   What else would it be?   I do not live where women walk around on the street topless.  In a culture where women wear burkas, I guess a woman's hair is seen as erotic.  But are you going to tell the men in that culture to get over it?  You are free to do so but as far as changing the culture that way?  

Let's try a "topless mall" and see how it changes the culture.   I think you will have tons of male customers to experiment on.  Of course like just reading the articles in Playboy,  the men will just be there to find good deals on lawn mowers.

Dream on.