Coming Soon to a Strip-ping Mall Near You - Topless Women

[Hamba Tuhan]

28 minutes ago, pogi said:

Utah law does.

I found and read the Utah statute. I also violated it when I used a public urinal in the shopping centre this afternoon.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

13 hours ago, pogi said:

If you can succeed in changing long-held cultural norms of civility and decency, by all means I have no problem with changing the law at that point if you can succeed at getting young boys and men, and most women too, to view the women's breast no different from men's - Good luck!  It is the culture that defines what is lewd and the law should be erected around that cultural norm. 

Can you explain to me how your same logic here couldn’t be used in Saudi Arabia to force women to dress in cloth bags covering everything? If someone wanted to change such an oppressive law, do you think they’d need to change the culture first?

[Calm]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I think the husband was complicit. I am guessing the biological mother is influential in criminal charges as neither the husband or step-mother were competent or willing to provide a safe home and environment for her children.

I remember the original report as being different than both just taking their shirts off in the heat....as in a possibly neglectful context (drinking, excessive arguing iirc).  Details matter in this case, imo.  For example, did any of the kids ask her to cover up, express discomfort, try to leave but were not allowed to or did they just tell their biomom later?

Does someone have access to the court documents to show how the prosecution describes the event?

Edited November 21, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

From an earlier article:  

Quote

According to Buchanan, she had been in the garage that day with her husband, wearing long-sleeved shirts and protective clothing. They were sweaty and itchy, so they stripped down to their underwear, leaving their dirty clothes near a doorway so they could take a shower. That’s when the kids — a 13-year-old boy, a 10-year-old girl and a 9-year-old boy — saw her without her top on.

West Valley City Deputy Attorney Corey Sherwin offers a different account in court papers: He alleges that Buchanan stripped down in front of her stepchildren after making a statement about how if her husband could take off his shirt, then a woman should be able to as well.

He further alleges that Buchanan, while “under the influence of alcohol,” had told her husband that she would only put her shirt back on if he showed her his penis.

The police became involved in the situation after the Division of Child and Family Services began an investigation involving the children that was unrelated to Buchanan. Though it was not the focus of the initial investigation, Sherwin wrote, the children’s mother reported it to authorities because she was “alarmed” about what had happened in front of her kids.

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/09/30/this-utah-woman-was/

Nothing was done or reported until one or two years after it happened apparently (they hadn’t even determined when it happened, in 2016 or 2017) so it seems like no one but perhaps authorities were too upset about it. 

I wonder what the initial investigation was investigating. 

Previous discussion:  http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/72289-topless-in-your-own-homemaybe-not-in-utah/?tab=comments#comment-1209933370

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I still don't consider it lewd conduct. It was not sexual in nature.  Insensitive and immature but not lewd.

Agree.  There are actually parents who shower with their kids while teaching them how to wash properly.   No biggie.

Who told them they were naked?  I seem to remember that quote from somewhere....

So there's nothing wrong with a woman nursing in public, but let her walk around her own home with exposed breasts and she possibly goes to jail?

So are breasts sexual or not?

What kind of insanity is this?

 

[california boy]

How many nudists are there in America?

Quote

 

A quick Google of the size of AANR membership puts their numbers at 213,000. Even considering the “NR” part includes all of North America (including Canada and Mexico), it’s safe to say the bulk of those members are in the United States.

But that doesn’t tell the whole story. A lot of self-described nudists (maybe even the majority of nudists) aren’t members of AANR. Though members get discounts at AANR affiliated clubs, most clubs don’t require visitors to be AANR members and a lot of visitors aren’t members.

 

Not everyone thinks nudism is shameful.  If you are going to start locking up all the people that are nudist, you are going to need a lot more prisons.  And we are not talking about just breasts.  

[Scott Lloyd]

Seriously? This is a discussion topic here? Must be sweeps week for Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board. 

[pogi]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Seriously? This is a discussion topic here? Must be sweeps week for Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board. 

Move along Scott.  If you are not concerned that the ACLU is fighting to tear down Utah law which prevents women from walking around topless like in Colorado, then don’t participate.  But no need to stick your head in to be a jerk and mock those of us who are interested in discussing it.

Edited November 21, 2019 by pogi

[Amulek]

12 hours ago, california boy said:

Aren't we feeding into the wishes of Satan every time we put on our clothes?  

Didn't God have clothes fashioned for Adam and Eve following their sorry attempt to cover themselves?

In which case, wouldn't we be rejecting God (or, at a minimum, God's gift) by throwing off our garments and running around in our birthday suits?

 

[Amulek]

6 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

9 hours ago, katherine the great said:

I still don't consider it lewd conduct. It was not sexual in nature.  Insensitive and immature but not lewd.

Agree.  There are actually parents who shower with their kids while teaching them how to wash properly.   No biggie.

But the woman wasn't a parent - she was a step-parent.

If an adult woman who wasn't the biological mother of my 13 year old son were to take a shower with him, I would probably find that behavior...alarming.

 

[pogi]

9 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I found and read the Utah statute. I also violated it when I used a public urinal in the shopping centre this afternoon.

I read it too and that is not true.  There is not a lawmaker, prosecutor, or judge in Utah who would interpret the statute that way.

[pogi]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

/Nothing was done or reported until one or two years after it happened apparently (they hadn’t even determined when it happened, in 2016 or 2017) so it seems like no one but perhaps authorities were too upset about it. 

The fact that the authorities found out about it 2 years later from investigating an incident that didn’t even involve the defendant suggests someone was upset about it enough to bring it up.

First, it affected the children enough to where they felt compelled to tell their mother about it, and it affected the mother enough to where she felt compelled to tell the authorities about it.

The children did all they knew how to do, and the mother may not have known that it was illegal or what her options were.

How severely it affected them is speculation, but as I have already argued, I would have been very negatively impacted as a 9, 10, or 13 year old boy to where I wouldn’t feel safe in my own home if my MIL was walking around topless.

[bluebell]

19 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

On another note, nudity on television is common all over continental Europe.  Regular TV, not subscription.

I was watching a morning soap opera in Spain a few years ago, and there was a nude scene.  This was around ten in the morning.

So, there's culture and then there's culture.  Some of you need to get out more.

This is already true here, to some extent. Two years ago I was watching a show on regular tv and suddenly the actress was having a conversation, facing the camera, naked from the waste up. The scene lasted a few minutes and it was 4:00 in the afternoon. 

I stopped watching that show after that. Breasts don’t bother me, but I don’t want to support tv shows that use naked women to try to increase their viewership. The ick factor is too high.

 

[pogi]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Agree.  There are actually parents who shower with their kids while teaching them how to wash properly.   No biggie.

Did your mother shower with you at 13 years old?  And has already been pointed out, this wasn’t their biological mother.

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Who told them they were naked?  I seem to remember that quote from somewhere....

Again, these weren’t infants and toddlers...

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So there's nothing wrong with a woman nursing in public, but let her walk around her own home with exposed breasts and she possibly goes to jail?

So are breasts sexual or not?

What kind of insanity is this?

I have already addressed this.  Context matters.  Also this isn’t about parts of the body being inherently _______(fill in the blank), it is about cultural sensibilities and how we violate those or not.  

Edited November 21, 2019 by pogi

[CV75]

23 hours ago, pogi said:

You can read about the case here. A Utah judge has heard the case and will be handing down a ruling within 2 months.  The decision could be a stepping stone toward making it legal for women to walk around bare-breasted in public in Utah.  The ACLU attorney arguing the case makes the following argument:

I think the sight of 2,000 stripping warriors is quite interesting 9where is that scripture?).

I was somewhere way back and there was a public protest on this subject. Lots of protesters and cameras flashing. On one hand there was a lot of coverage, and on the other hand, not. At any rate, the funny thing about it was that it quickly turned into an unusually cold day!

[pogi]

9 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Can you explain to me how your same logic here couldn’t be used in Saudi Arabia to force women to dress in cloth bags covering everything? If someone wanted to change such an oppressive law, do you think they’d need to change the culture first?

Yes, I do think that culture should dictate law and not the other way around - now that would be oppressive.  You are viewing this from an American perspective and culture, but not all women in Saudi Arabia view it as "oppressive", and would probably take offense at calling the abaya a "cloth bag".  Interestingly, cultural attitudes are shifting in Saudi Arabia and the law is following in step - as it should be. 

Quote

 

Following the principle of "enjoining good and forbidding wrong", there are many limitations and prohibitions on behavior and dress which are strictly enforced both legally and socially, often more so than in other Muslim countries. However, many of the traditional restrictions have been lifting recently by the government including allowing women to drive and many other female-related issues. 

...Another example of the strict adherence to Islamic values can be seen in women who are required to wear the traditional ”abaya” (long, fully covered dress). However, women are no longer required to wear Abayas in public but are required to dress modestly as a form of respecting the Saudi culture

...Many women normally wear an abaya, a long black cloak that covers all but the hands and face in public despite this not required.[45] (Modest dress is compulsory for women in Islam but the color black for women and white for men is apparently based on tradition not religious scripture.[46]) Saudi women also normally wear a full face veil, such as a niqāb. Women's clothes are often decorated with tribal motifs, coins, sequins, metallic thread, and appliques. Foreign women are required to wear an abaya, but don't need to cover their hair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_of_Saudi_Arabia

 

 

[CV75]

7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

So are breasts sexual or not?

Feeling lucky today?

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Amulek said:

Didn't God have clothes fashioned for Adam and Eve following their sorry attempt to cover themselves?

In which case, wouldn't we be rejecting God (or, at a minimum, God's gift) by throwing off our garments and running around in our birthday suits?

 

That is an interesting thought.  It appears that God preferred Adam and Eve naked.  But if they are going to follow Satan’s plan, at least give them something more fashion forward than a fig leaf. I wonder what PETA thinks about God’s gift of animal skins.  Are they on the wrong side. of Gods plan?

[provoman]

52 minutes ago, pogi said:

The fact that the authorities found out about it 2 years later from investigating an incident that didn’t even involve the defendant suggests someone was upset about it enough to bring it up.

First, it affected the children enough to where they felt compelled to tell their mother about it, and it affected the mother enough to where she felt compelled to tell the authorities about it.

The children did all they knew how to do, and the mother may not have known that it was illegal or what her options were.

How severely it affected them is speculation, but as I have already argued, I would have been very negatively impacted as a 9, 10, or 13 year old boy to where I wouldn’t feel safe in my own home if my MIL was walking around topless.

To the bolded.

Please stop speculating.  

Based on the article Calm posted, it seems evident that the children NEVER told the birth mother.

The topless incident was discover when Child protective services or the police where conducting interviews about a unrelated matter.

[provoman]

47 minutes ago, pogi said:

Did your mother shower with you at 13 years old?  And has already been pointed out, this wasn’t their biological mother.

 

Why are we diminishing the validity of a parent simply because the parent does not have a genetic connection to the child.

 

 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, provoman said:

Based on the article Calm posted, it seems evident that the children NEVER told the birth mother.

First you tell me not to speculate, then you continue, "it seems evident..."  Serious?  It doesn't say they never told their mother.

There are only 3 likely possibilities.  1) The defendant told the mother (get real), 2) the father told the mother (highly unlikely the husband would rat out his wife to his ex), or 3) the children told the mother.  Hmmm... which is more likely?  

Edited November 21, 2019 by pogi

[provoman]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I have already addressed this.  Context matters.  Also this isn’t about parts of the body being inherently _______(fill in the blank), it is about cultural sensibilities and how we violate those or not.  

Utah law the female areola or female nipple ARE inherently lewd. And if laws represent cultural norms, then would it be accurate to say Utah cultural norms/sensibilities ARE that the female areola or female are inherently obscene?

The only context that Utah State Law deems the female areola or female not lewd is when the female is breastfeeding.

Edited November 21, 2019 by provoman

[Amulek]

20 minutes ago, provoman said:

The only context that Utah State Law deems the female areola or female not lewd is when the female is breastfeeding.

Really? So figure painters can't make use of nude models in Utah? I guess that would explain why they made the models at BYU wear bodysuits.

 

[Ahab]

15 hours ago, california boy said:

So did Satan deceive Adam and Eve when he told them to cover themselves?  

Yes.  Did you ever see the video version shown in the temple?  Hide!  He said.  As if they should feel ashamed. There is nothing wrong with feeling like you are immodestly dressed, accompanied by a feeling of wanting to put some clothes on so you can be modestly dressed.  We should clothe ourselves not because we are ashamed of our bodies but because we want to be modestly dressed and not let it all hang out in front of everybody.

15 hours ago, california boy said:

And have you considered that at that point, they had been naked in the Garden of Eden, even during all those interactions they had with God before Satan told them to get dressed.

Yes.  Just like a small child, they didn't know any better.

15 hours ago, california boy said:

Aren't we feeding into the wishes of Satan every time we put on our clothes?  

Only if we're doing it because we feel ashamed of our bodies.  Our Father just wants us to be modest and not let everything hang out in front of everybody.

[pogi]

56 minutes ago, provoman said:

Why are we diminishing the validity of a parent simply because the parent does not have a genetic connection to the child.

Diminishing the validity of a parent?  What are you talking about?

This has nothing to do with the validity of in-law-parenthood.  This has to do with young children being intentionally exposed to breasts in violation of Utah law to prove how feminist she is - in that context I think the fact that she is not the biological mother does make a difference in how it might affect the children psychologically.