Coming Soon to a Strip-ping Mall Near You - Topless Women

[bluebell]

38 minutes ago, pogi said:

It was found unconstitutional.  I'm not understanding your point.  The larger culture won, and that is what I have been saying the whole time.  I have always said, local cultures are allowed to influence local law, so long as that law is found to be acceptable in the larger cultural context of the constitution.  It is all culturally based. 

A few pages ago you made a blanket statement that "Culture should dictate law, not the other way around."  I'm just using an example where culture should not have dictated law, and where it eventually was stopped from dictating law.

The south isn't the only example though.  Gay marriage became legal way before the predominate culture supported it. The legality of gay marriage was, when it became legal, not culturally based but constitutionally based.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

The South didn't have the dominant culture, or they would have had their way.  Laws and practices simply would not have changed without a cultural uprising.  Culture changed the law, not the other way around. 

That is not what my study of that era, as someone with a degree in History, has shown me.  

[SeekingUnderstanding]

31 minutes ago, pogi said:

Are you going to address anything I said?

Culturally, a man's nipple is not considered lewd, or even sexually attractive.  You don't here women freaking out, "oh I saw his nipple!" in "wardrobe malfunctions".  Even in the highly conservative church!  See the pics of the BYU sports team posted earlier.  The male breast is no where NEAR as culturally powerful/influential as the female breast.  Different galaxies!

 I will have to respond to the rest later.

I will when you do. What are we as a society going to do for the teenage daughter that feels shamed because she finds her shirtless step dad really hot? And he shoves it in her face all the time. Clearly we need a law for this!

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I will when you do. What are we as a society going to do for the teenage daughter that feels shamed because she finds her shirtless step dad really hot? And he shoves it in her face all the time. Clearly we need a law for this!

Or if not her step Dad then maybe one of those BYU swimmers who pogi doesn't give a second thought about.. probably just because HE doesn't find them or their chests to be sexually attractive to HIM.

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

A few pages ago you made a blanket statement that "Culture should dictate law, not the other way around."  I'm just using an example where culture should not have dictated law, and where it eventually was stopped from dictating law.

We are looking at this from different perspectives.  From the larger national perspective, the prevailing culture won.  From the micro culture of the south, the law won.  But either way you look at it, culture DID dictate law in that scenario.  The larger culture dictated law for the smaller culture.  Sometimes the smaller culture does win, but even then, those laws and changes are culturally based.  

11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The south isn't the only example though.  Gay marriage became legal way before the predominate culture supported it. The legality of gay marriage was, when it became legal, not culturally based but constitutionally based.

We would never have seen legal changes with gay marriage before cultural shifts in thinking.  These laws simply would not have passed in the 40's and 50's.  The people would not have allowed for it.  Today, enough people care to make it to stick.  It is always cultural shifts in thinking that trigger legal changes.  If culture did not dictate law, what would?  A dictator?  

 

[pogi]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

That is not what my study of that era, as someone with a degree in History, has shown me.  

I respectfully disagree with your conclusions. I don't know if we are talking about the same thing here, because it seems evident that it was cultural changes in thinking that led to the abolition of slavery and later to changes in civil rights. There was a time when even the President owned a slave.  The culture changed...the laws followed.  If the culture had not changed, things would be very different today in terms of law. 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by pogi

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

We are looking at this from different perspectives.  From the larger national perspective, the prevailing culture won.  From the micro culture of the south, the law won.  But either way you look at it, culture DID dictate law in that scenario.  The larger culture dictated law for the smaller culture.  Sometimes the smaller culture does win, but even then, those laws and changes are culturally based.  

We would never have seen legal changes with gay marriage before cultural shifts in thinking.  These laws simply would not have passed in the 40's and 50's.  The people would not have allowed for it.  Today, enough people care to make it to stick.  It is always cultural shifts in thinking that trigger legal changes.  If culture did not dictate law, what would?  A dictator?  

 

Yes, like God who tells us what his laws are and we who choose to do his will do what he wants us to do.   And if it weren't for him telling us what his laws are, who knows what kind of a mess we could get ourselves into.

[pogi]

17 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I will when you do. What are we as a society going to do for the teenage daughter that feels shamed because she finds her shirtless step dad really hot? And he shoves it in her face all the time. Clearly we need a law for this!

Convince the predominant culture...get the law!

Your turn.

[pogi]

2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Yes, like God who tells us what his laws are and we who choose to do his will do what he wants us to do.   And if it weren't for him telling us what his laws are, who knows what kind of a mess we could get ourselves into.

We are not a theocracy.  I am not talking about eternal law. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

Convince the predominant culture...get the law!

Your turn.

I don’t want the law. I’m just surprised you are so concerned about the poor young man in your scenario, but are completely unconcerned about the young woman in the parallel scenario. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Interestingly my wife and I tried out a nude beach a couple years back. I was raised by very very prudish parents and currently live in a very conservative area. I was actually surprised by how non-sexual the entire experience was. From start to finish. You should try it. 

True story, back in the 90's at Orem High school (in certain crowds), being naked was in.  Streaking with your friends, running around the red rocks nude on road trips, skinny dipping...any excuse to get nude, we took it (co-ed).  It was always a blast and totally non-sexual...right?  

Young hot teenage girls running around topless TOTALLY isn't going to do anything for any teenager, or adult for that matter.

Edited November 22, 2019 by pogi

[Ahab]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

We are not a theocracy.  I am not talking about eternal law. 

God is only one example of a dictator.  Feel free to use any other example of someone who tells us what our laws should be as the dictator while the culture that is affected consists of those who choose to accept what he says should be the law.

[pogi]

16 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I don’t want the law. I’m just surprised you are so concerned about the poor young man in your scenario, but are completely unconcerned about the young woman in the parallel scenario. 

Again, "different galaxies!"  To try and pretend like cultural perceptions of the male nipple and the female nipple are equivalent is a freaking joke! 

Edited November 22, 2019 by pogi

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, pogi said:

Again, "different galaxies!"  To try and pretend like cultural perceptions of the male nipple and the female nipple are equivalent is a freaking joke! 

Men prefer women's chests, and women prefer men's chests, preferably in good physical condition.  Different galaxies, not quite.  Same solar system, I think, with men from Mars and women from Venus, or something like that.

[pogi]

15 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Men prefer women's chests, and women prefer men's chests, preferably in good physical condition.  Different galaxies, not quite.  Same solar system, I think, with men from Mars and women from Venus, or something like that.

There is no equivalence in perception between a male "nipple" and female "nipple" (which is what is illegal to expose).  When was the last time you heard anyone freak out over a wardrobe malfunction exposing the nipple of a man?  Cultural perceptions are not equivalent.  Different galaxies!  

Edited November 22, 2019 by pogi

[Ahab]

47 minutes ago, pogi said:

There is no equivalence in perception between a male "nipple" and female "nipple" (which is what is illegal to expose).  When was the last time you heard anyone freak out over a wardrobe malfunction exposing the nipple of a man?  Cultural perceptions are not equivalent.  Different galaxies!  

Why do you focus so much on the nipple?  Is that the only part of a woman's breast you consider to be sexually attractive?  Do you have a nipple fetish?  Only women's, I mean.  What you may not know is that many men are attracted to the rest of the breast of a woman, or both of them together, even without seeing the woman's nipples.  Even just a little bit of cleavage is exciting for some.  And some prefer to be shown everything but the nipples, at least until they are really ready to see the nipples and carry things on further from there.  Anyway, for women, it's not just about seeing a man's nipples, either.  Many women actually prefer seeing the rest of a man's chest, when he is in good physical condition, and are not as super fixated on seeing only the nipples as you seem to be fixated on a woman's nipples.  And for them seeing all of a man's chest, or everything but his nipples, is just as exciting as it is for a man to see all of a woman's chest, or everything but her nipples.  So you'll find that nipples don't mean as much to everybody as they seem to mean to you.  

Edited November 22, 2019 by Ahab

[pogi]

16 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Why do you focus so much on the nipple?  Is that the only part of a woman's breast you consider to be sexually attractive?  Do you have a nipple fetish?

Why are you making this about me?  I am speaking of cultural perceptions.  I made that very clear.  I am focusing on the nipple because that is the part that is illegal to expose (you can include the areola and the lower breast in that too). That is the part that our culture freaks out about for whatever reason.  That is the part that is in a different galaxy in terms of cultural perceptions.   They are not equivalent in terms of cultural perceptions, to argue otherwise would be nuts. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by pogi

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

Why are you making this about me?  I am speaking of cultural perceptions.  I made that very clear.  I am focusing on the nipple because that is the part that is illegal to expose (you can include the areola and the lower breast in that too). That is the part that our culture freaks out about for whatever reason.  That is the part that is in a different galaxy in terms of cultural perceptions.   They are not equivalent in terms of cultural perceptions, to argue otherwise would be nuts. 

When you use the term "our culture" exactly who are you talking about?  Sounds to me like you're talking about only the people in our culture who think that way, not realizing or mentioning the fact that there are many other people in our culture who do not think that way. I'm thinking you're not referring to everybody in our culture because everybody doesn't think that way.  For some it' s not the woman's nipple that is the best part of a woman's breast, and for some other's it is.  And for some a woman's nipples don't do anything for them at all, nothing exciting or arousing at all about those things.  For some it's a man's nipples, or a man's whole chest, that is exciting and sexually arousing for them, rather than a woman's nipples or a woman's breast.

So I am making this about YOU because YOU are the one saying what you are saying.  You don't speak for everybody.  You're only expressing your own views about this.

[pogi]

56 minutes ago, Ahab said:

When you use the term "our culture" exactly who are you talking about?  Sounds to me like you're talking about only the people in our culture who think that way, not realizing or mentioning the fact that there are many other people in our culture who do not think that way. I'm thinking you're not referring to everybody in our culture because everybody doesn't think that way.  For some it' s not the woman's nipple that is the best part of a woman's breast, and for some other's it is.  And for some a woman's nipples don't do anything for them at all, nothing exciting or arousing at all about those things.  For some it's a man's nipples, or a man's whole chest, that is exciting and sexually arousing for them, rather than a woman's nipples or a woman's breast.

So I am making this about YOU because YOU are the one saying what you are saying.  You don't speak for everybody.  You're only expressing your own views about this.

I am speaking of American culture in general, and Utah culture specifically.  I am speaking of the dominant culture and perceptions in each.  Do you disagree that cultural perceptions are radically different in America in regards to the male vs female nipple?  If you disagree, how do you explain the whole Janet Jackson national phenomenon?  How do you explain the laws banning the nude female nipple in public and not the nude male nipple in public?  The laws alone are proof of colossal differences in perception.  If a women walked around topless downtown next to a male, who would get more public attention?  Perceptions of each, in terms of what is modest and what is not, are different (just ask President Nelson).  Sensibilities are different. Culture matters. 

If it was a dude that had a "wardrobe malfunction"...yawn!!!

Are you suggesting we should create laws to satisfy every micro-culture?

Edited November 22, 2019 by pogi

[pogi]

3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

CFR. I’ve never heard of this and heard much evidence to the contrary. 

Sorry, missed this.  

Here is what you are asking a CFR for:

Quote

Sexual nudity is only an issue if your culture makes it to be.

I am confused at to what you want from me.  You want evidence that some cultures make public sexual nudity an issue, while other's don't?  I thought that was a given, but ok.

Watch the documentary Wild Wild Country for one really interesting example. Really fascinating history. 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by pogi

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

There is no equivalence in perception between a male "nipple" and female "nipple" (which is what is illegal to expose).  When was the last time you heard anyone freak out over a wardrobe malfunction exposing the nipple of a man?  Cultural perceptions are not equivalent.  Different galaxies! 

It's like comparing dropping a penny vs a kilogram gold bar off the Empire State Building.

I mean, they are both subject to gravity and they both have monetary value, so it's pretty much the same, right? 

I'm sorry, but one has to be almost trollingly obtuse to pretend that toplessness and barechestedness are equivalent. Are there some similarities, sure. But when it comes to culture here in the U.S., it's blatantly obvious that they are not identical.

I mean, honestly, just compare the number of female topless bars in any major city to the number of establishments featuring males - it's not even close. Oh, and don't forget that there's a whole soft-core 'breastaraunt' industry now as well. And when you're not out scarfing down hot wings at Hooters or Twin Peaks (seriously, you can't make this stuff up), you could always go for a haircut at Knockouts - where they've taken the same business model and applied it to the salon industry. Heck, I've even seen downblouse shoe shining outfits before. It's ridiculous. 

 

[Calm]

5 hours ago, pogi said:

I think it is all but certain.  This is Utah after all!  Our culture and people simply wont allow for it - and we have power.  If those in power do nothing, we will take them from power and put somebody in who will fight it all the way to the top. 

If it means putting a woman on the sex offender registry for showing her breasts in her home to her kids, I can see possible support in Utah for removing it. 

If they are able to separate private and public, then I see Utah as fighting public toplessness of women all the way. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Calm

[Ahab]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I am speaking of American culture in general, and Utah culture specifically.

No, I think you are thinking of a subset of that culture, a subset of the culture which includes everybody.

Quote

I am speaking of the dominant culture and perceptions in each. 

Dominant in what way? 

Quote

Do you disagree that cultural perceptions are radically different in America in regards to the male vs female nipple? 

Depends on who you ask. Some perceive male chests (not jut the nipple, sheesh, get off of your fetish) to be much more sexually attractive than female chests.  And some people don't.  Do you base dominance on the percentage in agreement?  Have you ever done a poll to determine how many people consider male chests to be more attractive than female chests?  Or are you basing your perception on the fact that you are a male and how many males agree with you, without consideration of how women feel about this?

Quote

If you disagree, how do you explain the whole Janet Jackson national phenomenon? 

Some men saw it and hooped and hollered.  Some women saw it and probably said or thought something like, "Oh brother, there go the men getting all worked up over seeing a woman's nipple, again."  And some other women probably liked it while some other men didn't.  A wide range of perceptions, I'm sure.

Quote

How do you explain the laws banning the nude female nipple in public and not the nude male nipple in public? 

Men probably wrote those laws based on how they felt, as men, not wanting to see women running around like that or wanting to avoid their wives getting worked up over how they were acting when looking at other women's chests.  With men not considering how they were creating a double standard, or not caring if they did, wanting to make their own views binding on the general population.

Quote

The laws alone are proof of colossal differences in perception.

I am aware of the colossal differences in perception.  What you don't seem to realize is that laws are established by people with particular perceptions who want to somehow make their perceptions binding on other people, or else.

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 If a women walked around topless downtown next to a male, who would get more public attention? 

Men would look at the woman more than the man, and women would look at the man more than the woman.  Generally speaking.  Some who liked both would look a lot and maybe even equally at both.

Quote

Perceptions of each, in terms of what is modest and what is not, are different (just ask President Nelson).  Sensibilities are different. Culture matters. 

If it was a dude that had a "wardrobe malfunction"...yawn!!!

Women would have probably liked to have seen that than to see another woman with the same things that they have.

Quote

Are you suggesting we should create laws to satisfy every micro-culture?

It wouldn't hurt.  Make laws for men and for women, not just laws against women but not against men.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Ahab

[pogi]

Just now, Calm said:

If it means putting a woman on the sex offender registry for showing her breasts in her home to her kids, I can see possible support in Utah for removing it. 

Once they find out the context, that it was a MIL in her 20’s who identified as a feminist who intentionally exposed her breasts to her 9,10, and 13 year old children-in-law to teach them that is ok for a woman to expose her breasts around the house and in public and that it is no different from seeing their biological fathers chest, and that she would only cover up if he showed her his penis...and she was tipsy.  I don’t think many Utahns are going to identify and empathize with that at all.  Especially considering that she is now actively arguing in court that Utah law is unconstitutional if it requires women to cover their breasts in public but not men.

I agree that many will see the punishment as harsh in her specific case, but I think they will see the alternative as much more undesirable.

[pogi]

38 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I am aware of the colossal differences in perception.  

Wait, you agree with me? Serious!?  What about all the - “Are you basing your perception on the fact that you are a male?”  “Have you taken a poll...?” Etc. Etc.. more trolling...etc?

Why are you wasting our time here?

Once again Ahab, have a nice weekend.  We are done here. 

I will address this though:

“What you don't seem to realize is that laws are established by people with particular perceptions who want to somehow make their perceptions binding on other people, or else”

That’s how it works.  One group’s perception become binding on other groups who disagree.  Or, do you really think that republicans and democrats work that way together?  Want something else?  Anarchy is the only  solution to that problem that I know of.

Edited November 23, 2019 by pogi