Coming Soon to a Strip-ping Mall Near You - Topless Women

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

Add to that the penis and vagina too I guess,  it’s all equally sacred right?  Or is it?  Culturally, I’d say not.

I think it is more a useless endeavor to measure and therefore appeal to the level of religious sacred significance because this likely varies based on what the ritual/symbol or Spirit is attempting to teach at a particular time.

[pogi]

I have suggested the inherently sacred view as an alternative to the “inherently obscene” view as a more healthy approach.  But if people here like the obscene approach and really think that our religion views it that way, then I wish you the best! 

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think it is more a useless endeavor to measure and therefore appeal to the level of religious sacred significance because this likely varies based on what the ritual/symbol or Spirit is attempting to teach at a particular time.

See my post above.  I don’t think it is useless to teach young women to cover up because they are sacred.  Women NEED to hear that as too often they come to believe the opposite.

Do you know how many times people have stated in this thread that asking women to cover implies that they are obscene?  How is my approach not light years better?  Because, like it or not, the church is not going to be changing their stance anytime soon. 

Edited November 24, 2019 by pogi

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, pogi said:

How is my approach not light years better?

An approach needs to make sense to the people it is trying to persuade.  If a young woman can think of a multitude of sacred things we don't cover, it will sound like an excuse, not an explanation.

[cherryTreez]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Come on...The function of the female breast/nipple is no more sacred than the function of the male breast/nipple (whatever that is)?  You are going to disregard all of the symbology and religious history?

One has been central to the survival of our species, and the other...is...um....there, I guess.

Even my heart melts at the sight of my wife holding my baby girl in her bosom, listening to the gentle and soft sounds of suckling and swallowing, angelic coos, with breaks of breaths through her nares and eyes gently closed, as my wife gazes down with a smile of pure agape and soft eyes.  I am witnessing something profoundly sacred that reminds me of my relationship and unbreakable bond with God.
“Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee”

 

That may be your idea of nursing. Mine would be long nights, being used as a teething toy, thrush, mastitis (I thought I was dying), your body not being your own for years.  Sorry they are just like a cow's udder. I am glad that I could make milk for them, but it's a basic biological thing. It happens when you give birth even if you don't want it too.  Drying up milk isn't fun or easy. 

[pogi]

10 hours ago, Calm said:

An approach needs to make sense to the people it is trying to persuade.  If a young woman can think of a multitude of sacred things we don't cover, it will sound like an excuse, not an explanation.

Culturally, some things are more sacred than others and should be covered out of respect for ourselves and others.  That explanation worked for me growing up, and still does.  I absolutely view the female breast as more sacred in function - I think most do when comparing male to female.  

Do yo think that the teaching of ‘sacred and private’ is wrong in relation to our genitals and sex?  Or are girls going to argue that their genitals are no different than their arms?  I think it not hard to see that our culture does not view these parts equally. One thing that can’t be denied is that the female breast is culturally more significant than an arm.  It is a powerful symbol of sex in our culture and sex is sacred and private.  Couple that with its other inherent function, it is not hard to see why it is on a different level than an arm.  I’m sorry, but I think young woman (and church leaders) would mostly agree with me that their breasts are more sacred and private than their arms. 

I think you agree that the church is not changing - so what do you propose? 

Edited November 24, 2019 by pogi

[pogi]

9 hours ago, cherryTreez said:

That may be your idea of nursing. Mine would be long nights, being used as a teething toy, thrush, mastitis (I thought I was dying), your body not being your own for years.  Sorry they are just like a cow's udder. I am glad that I could make milk for them, but it's a basic biological thing. It happens when you give birth even if you don't want it too.  Drying up milk isn't fun or easy. 

I acknowledge you feel that way, but even sacred rituals can become mundane, tiring, trying, etc.   my wife has had similar experiences with breastfeeding, yet she cried when she stopped with my son.  True story - when I asked why she was crying, she told me that despite its challenges it was the most spiritual experience of her life to bond with my son in that way and she had mixed feelings about stopping.  Keep in mind, we thought we couldn’t have children and eventually were blessed with one (two now), so maybe it was not as easy for us to take the experience for granted, and were able to view it through more spiritual eyes.  It is amazing how mundane and insignificant a thing can seem until you don’t have it.

Sex and birth is “basically a biological thing” too.  Should we compare ourselves to cattle pushing out calves?  Or, are humans on another level spiritually?  Surely you can see that while biologically, and in the eyes of science, we are similar, but spiritually and in the eyes of God/religion we are not likened to a cow.  

Most wouldn’t call giving birth fun either, in fact many would say the same about sex!  In fact I have heard many make light of both as you have done here.  But when viewed through spiritual eyes, we know differently.  It isn’t hard to make sacred things look mundane and insignificant from a worldly perspective.  

Is sex not sacred?  Or are we “just like” two cows humping?  Your comparison to utters and milking cows would be offensive to many.

Edited November 24, 2019 by pogi

[pogi]

Oops

Edited November 24, 2019 by pogi

[cherryTreez]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I acknowledge you feel that way, but even sacred rituals can become mundane, tiring, trying, etc.   my wife has had similar experiences with breastfeeding, yet she cried when she stopped with my son.  True story - when I asked why she was crying, she told me that despite its challenges it was the most spiritual experience of her life to bond with my son in that way and she had mixed feelings about stopping.  Keep in mind, we thought we couldn’t have children and eventually were blessed with one (two now), so maybe it was not as easy for us to take the experience for granted, and were able to view it through more spiritual eyes.  It is amazing how mundane and insignificant a thing can seem until you don’t have it.

Sex and birth is “basically a biological thing” too.  Should we compare ourselves to cattle pushing out calves?  Or, are humans on another level spiritually?  Surely you can see that while biologically, and in the eyes of science, we are similar, but spiritually and in the eyes of God/religion we are not likened to a cow.  

Most wouldn’t call giving birth fun either, in fact many would say the same about sex!  In fact I have heard many make light of both as you have done here.  But when viewed through spiritual eyes, we know differently.  It isn’t hard to make sacred things look mundane and insignificant from a worldly perspective.  

Is sex not sacred?  Or are we “just like” two cows humping?  Your comparison would be offensive to many.

I struggled as well to have babies. Thankfully I found an amazing doctor that made it possible.  I understand how hard it is to not be able to get pregnant easily.  Birth is horrifying.  It's scary and terrifying.  Maybe not for most. I was induced for problems and both my sons was born not breathing.

   My daughter was stillborn. Giving birth to a dead baby is the worst thing is this world. It makes the pain of labor double or triple hard.  Even in a labor that is going well, the fear and memories are there.  

Being a mom or dad is bonding. Taking care of a baby is bonding.  I know women who cannot breastfeed. I know women who try and try and feel deflated and useless. I know women who bond and feel that connection with their babies when they give them a bottle. The relief of being able to feed their babies without pain, feelings of failure and frustration.  The joy that they get for just being a mom and see their baby happy.  

 As for sex, It depends on the people and their thoughts and actions. For many, there is nothing scared there.

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, cherryTreez said:

As for sex, It depends on the people and their thoughts and actions. For many, there is nothing scared there.

I think that is true with all things from a personal perspective.  I am looking at this through a religious perspective.  I know that these things are taught as highly spiritual in our church.  The entire plan of salvation is dependent upon that function.

I think if we were to ask leaders in our church if breastfeeding is sacred, they would answer in the affirmative -(I cant think of any who might suggest otherwise) it just seems so obvious to me that it is spiritually on another plane from the function of the male breast, but I understand how it can be hard to see it that way in the day to day routine.

Edited November 24, 2019 by pogi

[cherryTreez]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I think that is true with all things from a personal perspective.  I am looking at this through a religious perspective.  I know that these things are taught as highly spiritual in our church.  The entire plan of salvation is dependent upon that function.

I think if we were to ask leaders in our church if breastfeeding is sacred, they would answer in the affirmative -(I cant think of any who might suggest otherwise) it just seems so obvious to me that it is spiritually on another plane from the function of the male breast, but I understand how it can be hard to see it that way in the day to day routine.

You and I will have to agree to disagree.  It's just a basic function of a body.

  You have no control over milk coming in or not.  It's a basic function of mammals. They make milk for their babies or they don't and their babies die. I am thankful as humans we have formula to save babies. 

[pogi]

14 minutes ago, cherryTreez said:

You and I will have to agree to disagree.  It's just a basic function of a body.

So is childbirth.  Not all people can have children, yet it is still held as sacred in our religion.

[Bernard Gui]

On 11/21/2019 at 9:43 AM, provoman said:

you and others keep pointing out she is not the biological mother.

The law makes no distinction between breast of biological mother and any other female breast.

What if the children who were exposed to this were not family but just friends visiting the home?

[bluebell]

On 11/23/2019 at 10:49 PM, pogi said:

I have suggested the inherently sacred view as an alternative to the “inherently obscene” view as a more healthy approach.  But if people here like the obscene approach and really think that our religion views it that way, then I wish you the best! 

I think you are falling into the fallacy of the false dichotomy as I don't think our only choices are sacred or obscene.  I don't think that our religion views female breasts as either sacred or obscene for example, and I don't think that our rules about modesty stem from the idea that the sacred must be covered.  

[bluebell]

On 11/23/2019 at 11:09 PM, Calm said:

An approach needs to make sense to the people it is trying to persuade.  If a young woman can think of a multitude of sacred things we don't cover, it will sound like an excuse, not an explanation.

Likewise, made up explanations don't help anyone.  We've struggled with that too much as a church.  I would not appreciate any member teaching my kids that girls are supposed to be modest because their bodies are sacred because I don't appreciate it when people try to teach my kids opinions as if they are gospel.  It causes way to many problems down the road.

[bluebell]

23 hours ago, pogi said:

So is childbirth.  Not all people can have children, yet it is still held as sacred in our religion.

Can you share the references you are referring to about where our religion teaches that childbirth is sacred?  

[pogi]

18 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think you are falling into the fallacy of the false dichotomy as I don't think our only choices are sacred or obscene.  I don't think that our religion views female breasts as either sacred or obscene for example, and I don't think that our rules about modesty stem from the idea that the sacred must be covered.  

Ok.  I can’t tell you how many times I have heard it said on this thread that covering breasts implies they are inherently obscene or filthy, etc.  Well, no...no it doesn’t.  If our YW are getting that message, something needs to change.  What do you suggest?  I know that people don’t like being told to cover up to help the boys/men control their thoughts either.  So, how would you approach it if asked why the church takes the position it does?

I personally really like the sacred/private approach, not just because it gives YM a much more healthy and respectful view of their body, but because I believe it.   I truly believe the church takes the stance it does because of the powerful cultural sex symbol they are - which I know the church views as sacred/private.  

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, pogi said:

Ok.  I can’t tell you how many times I have heard it said on this thread that covering breasts implies they are inherently obscene or filthy, etc.  Well, no...no it doesn’t.  If our YW are getting that message, something needs to change.  What do you suggest?  I know that people don’t like being told to cover up to help the boys/men control their thoughts either.  So, how would you approach it if asked why the church takes the position it does?

I personally really like the sacred/private approach, not just because it gives YM a much more healthy and respectful view of their body, but because I believe it.   I truly believe the church takes the stance it does because of the powerful cultural sex symbol they are - which I know the church views as sacred/private.  

I don't think many (any?) girls are getting taught in church that we cover breasts because they are filthy or obscene so I don't think we need to expend much energy combating that message.  So I have no suggestions on that.   My approach is that we cover up those parts of our body because they are private.  

I don't believe it's a good idea to create reasons on why God has asked us to dress modestly and teach those to others. 

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I would not appreciate any member teaching my kids that girls are supposed to be modest because their bodies are sacred

I hope for your sake that your kids never read this:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/modesty?lang=eng

Not opinion.

That IS what the church teaches!

Modesty - “This counsel is founded on the truth that the human body is God’s sacred creation.”

[pogi]

34 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can you share the references you are referring to about where our religion teaches that childbirth is sacred?  

Is this a joke?

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

I hope for your sake that your kids never read this:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/modesty?lang=eng

Not opinion.

That IS what the church teaches!

Modesty - “This counsel is founded on the truth that the human body is God’s sacred creation.”

I actually just read this this morning.  I'm not seeing what you are seeing in it.  If "the human body is God’s sacred creation" is agreeing with you, then why aren't men required to cover their chests?  According to this quote, their chests and nipples are just as sacred as a woman's.

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Is this a joke?

No, it's a sincere request.  You keep saying that the church agrees with you/teaches that child birth and female breasts are sacred.  I'm just asking what references you are referring to or using to support that.  I've tried looking on lds.org and couldn't find anything but you might know of specific quotes that their search function isn't picking up.

[pogi]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

I actually just read this this morning.  I'm not seeing what you are seeing in it.  If "the human body is God’s sacred creation" is agreeing with you, then why aren't men required to cover their chests?  According to this quote, their chests and nipples are just as sacred as a woman's.

What I posted directly and irrefutably refutes what you posted about modesty and the sacredness of “the body”. 

So the manual is lying that the counsel of modesty is founded on the truth that the body is sacred?

What is the foundation for their teachings of modesty (including covering female breasts)?  What is “the truth”?

 

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

No, it's a sincere request.  You keep saying that the church agrees with you/teaches that child birth and female breasts are sacred.  I'm just asking what references you are referring to or using to support that.  I've tried looking on lds.org and couldn't find anything but you might know of specific quotes that their search function isn't picking up.

Maybe you could start with the first commandment ever given to man, then try the proclamation to the world on the family.  If you need more, I’m sure it won’t be hard to find.

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Maybe you could start with the first commandment ever given to man, then try the proclamation to the world on the family.  If you need more, I’m sure it won’t be hard to find.

Why the snarky push back on this?  

Yes, I'm aware that the proclamation talks about the sacredness of procreation, but you have been talking specifically about the sacredness of breastfeeding and childbirth, which are different than the sacredness of sex.  Where does the church teach that breastfeeding and childbirth are sacred as well?