Popular Post pogi Posted March 19, 2019 Popular Post Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Rivers said: I would argue neither. He was a perfect moderate. I imagine that the conservatives and liberals of today are very different from the conservatives and liberals of Christ's time, so without understanding the political context of his time, it is hard to say. I would imagine that he is like most of us who are politically complex creatures, who are both conservative, liberal, and moderated in different areas. Very few are true hardliners on every issue. If his church today is any indication, then I am right. In many ways the church is liberal, in other ways it is conservative, in other ways it is moderate. Edited March 19, 2019 by pogi 8
Popular Post BlueDreams Posted March 19, 2019 Popular Post Posted March 19, 2019 I would say neither because such ideas and contexts that surround the idea of "liberal" or "conservative" were not around in said time. 6
USU78 Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 The Law He authored and revealed to Moses on the Mountain presupposed private property and enjoined its protection. The Law He authored and revealed to Israel on the Mount presupposed an obligation to serve and aid all of one's fellows enjoined its prosecution. The political concepts implicit in most folks' use of the terms conservative/socialist-liberal would make Him weep. 4
Popular Post MustardSeed Posted March 19, 2019 Popular Post Posted March 19, 2019 I would say neither and both. I bet he would eschew both parties today, and at the same time hold the eternal principles that both claim, such as service, compassion, work, accountability. 5
CA Steve Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 (edited) I assume the question is in the context of a LDS point of view. So first we might need to discuss how literal we take the Biblical stories of His life. Obviously we hold to a literal death, resurrection and atonement, but beyond that what do we have to believe about His life? After all we only believe in the Bible as long as it is translated correctly. Maybe instead of a liberal vs conservative lens, he might be better viewed as either radical or reactionary. I tend to agree with Ehrman, that He is best explained as a reactionary apocalyptic prophet. Quote Ehrman shows us what historians have long known about the Gospels and the man who stands behind them. Through a careful evaluation of the New Testament (and other surviving sources, including the more recently discovered Gospels of Thomas and Peter), Ehrman proposes that Jesus can be best understood as an apocalyptic prophet--a man convinced that the world would end dramatically within the lifetime of his apostles and that a new kingdom would be created on earth. According to Ehrman, Jesus' belief in a coming apocalypse and his expectation of an utter reversal in the world's social organization not only underscores the radicalism of his teachings but also sheds light on both the appeal of his message to society's outcasts and the threat he posed to Jerusalem's established leadership. Jesus: Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium Edited March 19, 2019 by CA Steve 1
Robert F. Smith Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 34 minutes ago, USU78 said: The Law He authored and revealed to Moses on the Mountain presupposed private property and enjoined its protection. Moses lived in a world of extended rather than nuclear families, and in which private property was defined very differently than today. Makes me think of the range wars in this country between sheep herders, cattle ranchers, and farmers who put up fences (as a young man, my father had to contend with that as a land judge for the BLM). Then too, the communal nature of many pastoral societies and of early Christianity could challenge our assumptions about what is "best." 34 minutes ago, USU78 said: The Law He authored and revealed to Israel on the Mount presupposed an obligation to serve and aid all of one's fellows enjoined its prosecution. The political concepts implicit in most folks' use of the terms conservative/socialist-liberal would make Him weep. Actually, both conservative and liberal mind sets are essential to a harmonious society, and God doubtless wants both: Listen to the 15-minute comments of Dr. Jordan Peterson on that, at Oxford University: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZMIbo_DxJk . 4
USU78 Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 17 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Moses lived in a world of extended rather than nuclear families, and in which private property was defined very differently than today. Makes me think of the range wars in this country between sheep herders, cattle ranchers, and farmers who put up fences (as a young man, my father had to contend with that as a land judge for the BLM). Then too, the communal nature of many pastoral societies and of early Christianity could challenge our assumptions about what is "best." Actually, both conservative and liberal mind sets are essential to a harmonious society, and God doubtless wants both: Listen to the 15-minute comments of Dr. Jordan Peterson on that, at Oxford University: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZMIbo_DxJk . If we want to compare ancient legal codes with the Torah and postulate the worldviews of those who promulgated and lived by them, we would be taking on a task well beyond the usefulness of this here board. Private property is as endemic as a bird tweeting out "Mine! Mine! Mine!" from a tree top, a terrier snapping at anyone getting near his bone or putting an unwelcome hand in his kennel, and a toddler seeing his sister with a toy he hadn't yet noticed that day and asserting his ownership of that toy by grabbing it away and leaving baby sis in tears. The human condition presupposes our ownership of the things we want. The Torah allows for this, even enjoining our stuff's replacement if it's taken or damaged by another. I suspect G-d doesn't much like this, but suffers its continuation, because of the mischief that has historically ensued when somebody tries to change it up. I don't agree with JP, PhD. But I get his point. I don't think G-d's ideal for His children holds much truck with either philosophy or the various attempts to harmonize them, as JP, PhD tries.
The Nehor Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 Liberal in the classical sense and conservative in the sense that he wants to return to the perfection of a previous era (back when we lived in God’s presence). In his own time he was radical and extreme but not politically. He seemed politically indifferent. Both the conservatives (Sadducees) and the liberals (Pharisees) hated and feared him and the other zealots (the actual Zealots and other extremist groups) disagreed with him. 3
Popular Post Mystery Meat Posted March 19, 2019 Popular Post Posted March 19, 2019 The very idea of trying to place Christ on the political spectrum seems silly to me. I think there would be plenty of the left and right who would be very disappointed by His doctrine, truly understood. 6
stemelbow Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 4 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: The very idea of trying to place Christ on the political spectrum seems silly to me. I think there would be plenty of the left and right who would be very disappointed by His doctrine, truly understood. Who truly understands it? It'd be nice to know so we can feel more directed by Him.
The Nehor Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 7 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said: The very idea of trying to place Christ on the political spectrum seems silly to me. I think there would be plenty of the left and right who would be very disappointed by His doctrine, truly understood. C.S. Lewis once made the comment that until we approach God as a teacher and not in an attempt to enlist him as a partisan to shore up our political beliefs we will never get anywhere. Our current orders from the apostles, as I understand them, are to be involved and be a voice of reason and peace while doing so. 5 minutes ago, stemelbow said: Who truly understands it? It'd be nice to know so we can feel more directed by Him. Those with the Holy Ghost burning within them. There is no way to intellectually communicate the will of God very well. All attempts are imperfect but the best teach truth and light the fire of the Spirit in the speaker and the listener and indirectly meet their goal. 4
stemelbow Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 2 minutes ago, The Nehor said: Those with the Holy Ghost burning within them. There is no way to intellectually communicate the will of God very well. All attempts are imperfect but the best teach truth and light the fire of the Spirit in the speaker and the listener and indirectly meet their goal. 1. Who has the HG burning within them? Name me one, please. 2. So if a speaker and listener claim to have the Spirit lit at any given speech or communication does that mean the Spirit revealed truth in that instance?
CA Steve Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 Lincoln when asked to pray that God was on the side of the Union, rejected the suggestion and said that they should pray that the Union was on God's side. 3
bluebell Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 16 minutes ago, CA Steve said: Lincoln when asked to pray that God was on the side of the Union, rejected the suggestion and said that they should pray that the Union was on God's side. “Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right.” 4
Stargazer Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Rivers said: I would argue neither. He was a perfect moderate. Moderation in keeping the commandments of God? Nope, pretty sure he was very conservative about that. Of course, the Pharisees and the Sadducees probably thought he was a liberal. 1
Stargazer Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 36 minutes ago, stemelbow said: 1. Who has the HG burning within them? Name me one, please. Me, for example. From time to time. 36 minutes ago, stemelbow said: 2. So if a speaker and listener claim to have the Spirit lit at any given speech or communication does that mean the Spirit revealed truth in that instance? It's possible. I've had the Spirit confirm things to me that were being said. I've had the Spirit tell me things that turned out to be true, even though there was no earthly way I could have found it out. And I'm sure that there are those who would dispute my claim. They're entitled to their opinion. 2
Stargazer Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said: Actually, both conservative and liberal mind sets are essential to a harmonious society, and God doubtless wants both: Listen to the 15-minute comments of Dr. Jordan Peterson on that, at Oxford University: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZMIbo_DxJk . Jordan Peterson is one of the clearest voices of truth in the secular world today, I believe. 3
ttribe Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 I predict this thread won't last the day because some participants will start to argue their political viewpoints and the whole thing will come crashing down. 2
pogi Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 I think one lesson we can learn from His example is that he suffers us to live contrary to his ultimate ideology. In other words, he teaches us tolerance, and even allowance of different (and even lower) ideologies. Though his ultimate ideology is more in line with the law of consecration, he allows us to live the lower law of tithing. Though the form of government that he will establish will be a theocratic monarchy, he allows us to form our own governments and ideals. Though he prefers us to turn the other cheek, he once allowed for a lower "eye for an eye" ideology, etc. I think this teaches us that regardless of what His ultimate ideals might be, he expects us to be merciful and tolerant of other's ideals as He is. Unfortunately, that is the opposite of what I see in today's political climate of severe divisiveness and intolerance of the other party. Our personal ideals are most certainly out of line with God's ultimate higher laws and ideals, so why should we expect other's to be in line with our ideals? 2
stemelbow Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 27 minutes ago, Stargazer said: Jordan Peterson is one of the clearest voices of truth in the secular world today, I believe. Take that Nelson!
MDalby Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 I had heard a story that I have never been able to get a verified reference to confirm the story. The story is that President Monson talked about when he was a bishop and said something to the effect that when he was a bishop he was pretty generous with the Church welfare funds and resources and if he had to do it all over again, he would be even more generous. 1
Amulek Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 3 hours ago, Rivers said: Was Jesus a conservative or a liberal? I always kind of thought of him as being in the Enlightened Monarch camp. 1
Bob Crockett Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 His followers in Acts adopted pure communism as an economic policy, with death the remedy for not adhering.
LoudmouthMormon Posted March 19, 2019 Posted March 19, 2019 Smart saints from both sides of the political aisle yearn for the day when Christ returns and makes our system of government no longer necessary. I'm told the wicked will burn as stubble. Sort of looking forward to it - not sure if I'll make it to the other side of that process, but a guy can hope. 1
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