Rumors of Changes to Temple Worship

[JLHPROF]

5 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

You’re saying this sarcastically, right?

I've come to the conclusion that either most members or I don't know what an ordinance is.

Because apparently we can change every single part of our rites and yet "the ordinance" has stayed the same.

We could completely redesign them but keep the names and the average member wouldn't bat an eye.  Give us another hundred years and our ordinances may look more like the Catholic or Protestant ones.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

Again, there is no record I’m aware of historical or scriptural that indicates that baptism was an ordinance for joining Christ’s Church. But maybe I’m wrong.  Records are incomplete.

Mosiah 18:16 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God.
17 And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.

Alma 6: 2 And it came to pass that whosoever did not belong to the church who repented of their sins were baptized unto repentance, and were received into the church.

Edited January 6, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[SettingDogStar]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

I've come to the conclusion that either most members or I don't know what an ordinance is.

Because apparently we can change every single part of our rites and yet "the ordinance" has stayed the same.

We could completely redesign them but keep the names and the average member wouldn't bat an eye.  Give us another hundred years and our ordinances may look more like the Catholic or Protestant ones.

Aaaand that’s what I’m afraid of haha

[SouthernMo]

11 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Yes and no. The core ordinances don’t change. There has always been baptism, the reception of the Holy Ghost, priesthood ordinantion, and the “endowment” in some form. The Law of Moses didn’t chuck these ordinances out the window, it just added more to it so the people would be worked into remberance. 

 

The problem we face now is whether changes to the endowment/sealings are just the presentation or if something was changed in error. 

Your idea of core is interesting. What is “core” to the endowment?  What do you believe has never, nor will ever change?

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Aaaand that’s what I’m afraid of haha

Sorry, Isaiah saw it happen.

Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Speaking of the time of the second coming Isaiah clearly states that the ordinances and covenant will be changed.  In order to change them you'd first have to have them.  Since the Church is the only place that has them I don't see any other reasonable interpretation.

I think we may see the end of garments required outside the temple next.  First they'll be made optional then as people stop wearing them they'll be ended.  Because we've progressed so much we don't need the physical reminders any more.  Our covenants should be internal only or some such thing.

The moccasins have already been demoted and the veils now cease to veil anything.  Putting on half the armor of God.

[SouthernMo]

18 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Mosiah 18:16 And after this manner he did baptize every one that went forth to the place of Mormon; and they were in number about two hundred and four souls; yea, and they were baptized in the waters of Mormon, and were filled with the grace of God.
17 And they were called the church of God, or the church of Christ, from that time forward. And it came to pass that whosoever was baptized by the power and authority of God was added to his church.

Alma 6: 2 And it came to pass that whosoever did not belong to the church who repented of their sins were baptized unto repentance, and were received into the church.

Hence why I have doubts about the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

[strappinglad]

 You might as well throw out the New Testament , because Christ and the apostles called for baptism in order to enter the Kingdom. 

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by strappinglad

[SettingDogStar]

55 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Sorry, Isaiah saw it happen.

Isaiah 24:5 The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.

Speaking of the time of the second coming Isaiah clearly states that the ordinances and covenant will be changed.  In order to change them you'd first have to have them.  Since the Church is the only place that has them I don't see any other reasonable interpretation.

I think we may see the end of garments required outside the temple next.  First they'll be made optional then as people stop wearing them they'll be ended.  Because we've progressed so much we don't need the physical reminders any more.  Our covenants should be internal only or some such thing.

The moccasins have already been demoted and the veils now cease to veil anything.  Putting on half the armor of God.

What is the church’s explanation for that scripture? I forget. Been awhile since seminary 😅

[Alaris]

Upon first reading of the changes I was shocked. That lasted about two minutes until I realized the changes are a reflection of the time and season. As the time of the gentiles draws to a close, those who have been tasked with the law of the gospel have collectively overcome and the changes reflect these rewards. 

Of course overcoming is an individual journey but the temple reflects the souls who are being born into that time and season. 

For example, those who were being born into Levi may have had their name / identity align to the law of sacrifice. No robes were on their shoulder yet as they tasted of the power of the world to come.

Likewise the robes of Aaron align to the law the gospel which is clearly the law of our time and season and matches to our identity / name now. As this time and season draws to a close, robes switch to the Melchizedek Priesthood - that power of the world to come. We have been tasting of this power. Bearing the Aaronic Priesthood in our youth symbolizes the fact we have secured that priesthood when our souls were younger.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

Hence why I have doubts about the authenticity of the Book of Mormon.

OK. That kind of settles it, don't you think?

[SouthernMo]

26 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

OK. That kind of settles it, don't you think?

Admittedly - it’s hard to have a dialogue about interpretation when one party (me) does not accept a basis on which a position (yours) depends.

[Rain]

I've been thinking the last couple of days how the women of the church were asked to read the Book of Mormon at the last conference.  I know some will roll their eyes at this, but it strikes me that many would be finishing on December 31st and then on January 1st in Nauvoo and elsewhere on the 2nd the we have changes that may profoundly affect the love for and understanding of women changes.

I prayed/considered the challenge when President Nelson gave it, but felt to continue with what I was doing, but listen to the Book of Mormon as I walked.  Things got crazy here in my home after a few weeks and I naturally just started reading one chapter of the Book of Mormon per day while everything was going on. I knew I wouldn't finish it by December 31st, but things felt right.

The last week or so there has been a shift in what I have been doing in and out of the home and I have wondered whether to continue and finish or whether to go back to the thing I was already doing with the scriptures.

I was debating on going to the temple on Wednesday anyway.  My daughter was going for a wedding and I figured I could go at the same time.  But among other things I discovered that my recommend had expired on the 31st and I really wanted to be prepared for the changes and not just go through  just to see.

So thinking about the challenge and then right away the changes, wanting to be prepared, things settling down by a ton in my other parts of life I've decided that I will take all the time I can to finish and then when I see the stake president on Wednesdays to get my recommend signed I can go.  I'm not sure which day that will be as I already see many things that will take my reading time, but at least I don't feel like breaking down anymore and can find some balance.

Did anyone else feel a connection between the challenge and the changes?  Especially if you both finished and have gone to the temple?  

Edited January 7, 2019 by Rain

[Bernard Gui]

56 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Admittedly - it’s hard to have a dialogue about interpretation when one party (me) does not accept a basis on which a position (yours) depends.

I’ll keep that in mind for further reference. Do you also dismiss the other Standard Works?

[SouthernMo]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

I’ll keep that in mind for further reference. Do you also dismiss the other Standard Works?

Dismiss is too strong of a word to describe their role in my life. I don’t see their usefulness as binary. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Dismiss is too strong of a word to describe their role in my life. I don’t see their usefulness as binary. 

I have no idea what that means. 

[SouthernMo]

Just now, Bernard Gui said:

I have no idea what that means. 

I don’t think that the standard works are perfect expressions of God’s message, nor an accurate history (in cases where they claim to be).

That doesn’t mean they aren’t inspired, and good things are in them.  I feel just as much of the spirit I reading the Book of Mormon as I do the Quran (for example). Neither are perfect. But they can both be helpful and useful. I dismiss neither. I accept neither as authoritative.

[Bernard Gui]

7 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I don’t think that the standard works are perfect expressions of God’s message, nor an accurate history (in cases where they claim to be).

That doesn’t mean they aren’t inspired, and good things are in them.  I feel just as much of the spirit I reading the Book of Mormon as I do the Quran (for example). Neither are perfect. But they can both be helpful and useful. I dismiss neither. I accept neither as authoritative.

Ditto Bible, I presume.

How do you determine what the good things are, say, like determining what God has to say about baptism?

[SouthernMo]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Ditto Bible, I presume.

How do you determine what the good things are, say, like determining what God has to say about baptism?

The spirit.

Which - I readily admit - I suck at following. I am trying to be better at following the spirit, but I’m often wrong in my understanding of what it’s trying to communicate to me. But I’m trying.

[Anijen]

The bar has been raised:

Each time the bar is raised, it is because the Lord is preparing his followers. The Savior knows when the saints are ready.

When Moses received the ten commandments, a bar had been set for the children of Israel to follow. 

• When Jesus finished his mission, the Law of Moses was no longer. The bar was raised.
• When Peter was told to change his diet, the bar was raised.
• When the Book of Mormon was published, the bar was raised.
• When the Church was restored, the bar was raised.
• When the priesthood was restored, the bar was raised.
• When we took out our endowments, the bar was raised.
• When are sealed in the temple, the bar was raised.
• Sending out missionaries; the bar was raised.
• When the Lord changes home teaching to ministering , the bar was raised.
• A two hour block with more emphasis at home, the bar was raised.

Are we ready? The Lord thinks so. Are we being prepared? Yes, I think we are.

 

[JLHPROF]

25 minutes ago, Anijen said:

The bar has been raised:

Each time the bar is raised, it is because the Lord is preparing his followers. The Savior knows when the saints are ready.

When Moses received the ten commandments, a bar had been set for the children of Israel to follow. 

• When Jesus finished his mission, the Law of Moses was no longer. The bar was raised.
• When Peter was told to change his diet, the bar was raised.
• When the Book of Mormon was published, the bar was raised.
• When the Church was restored, the bar was raised.
• When the priesthood was restored, the bar was raised.
• When we took out our endowments, the bar was raised.
• When are sealed in the temple, the bar was raised.
• Sending out missionaries; the bar was raised.
• When the Lord changes home teaching to ministering , the bar was raised.
• A two hour block with more emphasis at home, the bar was raised.

Are we ready? The Lord thinks so. Are we being prepared? Yes, I think we are.

 

The problem here - if the exact opposite of these had occurred you'd probably say the exact same thing.

• When the missionaries were called home to labor in their own field; the bar was raised.
• When the Lord expanded home teaching to twice a month, the bar was raised.
• A four hour block to devote an hour to and the return of Thursday fast meetings, the bar was raised.

If X happens it's the Lord, if opposite Y happens it's the Lord.  If we make choice A we're progressing.  If we make opposite choice B we're progressing.

Basically, whatever we do is right and the Lord is both pleased and directing it.  Makes things easier I suppose, never having to really choose right from wrong.

[Anijen]

29 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The problem here - if the exact opposite of these had occurred you'd probably say the exact same thing.

• When the missionaries were called home to labor in their own field; the bar was raised.
• When the Lord expanded home teaching to twice a month, the bar was raised.
• A four hour block to devote an hour to and the return of Thursday fast meetings, the bar was raised.

If X happens it's the Lord, if opposite Y happens it's the Lord.  If we make choice A we're progressing.  If we make opposite choice B we're progressing.

Basically, whatever we do is right and the Lord is both pleased and directing it.  Makes things easier I suppose, never having to really choose right from wrong.

I don't know if I would have said the same thing. Notice when I mentioned when Moses received the ten commandments, I said that a bar had been set. IIRC they were given a lower law after rejecting the higher law.

Although I never thought of it in the opposite. From what you have said, I think you might see me somewhat as a blind follower (I am not). My reasoning for my post is to show that from time to time, the Lord implements changes. It was my intention to show that when changes occur the Lord must believe we are ready to follow (Nephi 3:7) his directions.

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, Anijen said:

I don't know if I would have said the same thing. Notice when I mentioned when Moses received the ten commandments, I said that a bar had been set. IIRC they were given a lower law after rejecting the higher law.

Although I never thought of it in the opposite. From what you have said, I think you might see me somewhat as a blind follower (I am not). My reasoning for my post is to show that from time to time, the Lord implements changes. It was my intention to show that when changes occur the Lord must believe we are ready to follow (Nephi 3:7) his directions.

Now this I agree with to a point. The Lord absolutely raises the bar and teaches us line upon line as we are ready.  And, yes, it is vitally important that we demonstrate to him our willingness to follow his direction.

I just don't believe we are so amazing we are always moving in a constant linear progression as he raises the bar.  Not individually and not as a Church either.

[SouthernMo]

6 hours ago, SettingDogStar said:

Yes and no. The core ordinances don’t change. There has always been baptism, the reception of the Holy Ghost, priesthood ordinantion, and the “endowment” in some form. The Law of Moses didn’t chuck these ordinances out the window, it just added more to it so the people would be worked into remberance. 

 

The problem we face now is whether changes to the endowment/sealings are just the presentation or if something was changed in error. 

Still eager to hear what the “core” of the ordinances are that you believe have not, nor will ever change.

[Hamba Tuhan]

29 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

I just don't believe we are so amazing we are always moving in a constant linear progression as he raises the bar.  Not individually and not as a Church either.

No, we are not. But I feel reasonably confident that if the Lord is setting the bar, whingeing about whether it's been raised or lowered is not His favourite response.

[JLHPROF]

40 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

No, we are not. But I feel reasonably confident that if the Lord is setting the bar, whingeing about whether it's been raised or lowered is not His favourite response.

The bar doesn't move, not now, not ever.  God just gives us opportunities to move towards it.  Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't.

I never complain about the bar being moved because it doesn't, only about man thinking it's changed height to suit them.