Rumors of Changes to Temple Worship

[SettingDogStar]

58 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Just like Moses on the mount it has always been the goal of the endowment to allow us into God's presence in the life and the next.

The 1990 changes removed the pieces that taught us to do that.  We very literally led God to hide his face.  We are the children of Israel.  Maybe God did direct these changes.  And we should look closely at ourselves for the reason.

So I’ve researched a lot of the changes but since I wasn’t there, it’s tricky to put it together in my head. Maybe you’d have to DM me but unless you’re talking about the penalties then what would have caused God to hide His face? Maybe I’m not looking for enough.

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Because the Church as a body of members also has its agency as demonstrated by the law of common consent.  

Those who don't harden their hearts but diligently seek truth, no matter how uncomfortable it makes them receive further light.  Sometimes separately from the body as a whole.  Eternal truths don't change, but when rejected by common consent the individual is left to ask, seek, and knock.  All the while waiting patiently on the Lord.

Much like that Catholic  priest who finds the Book of Mormon in the Church film.

I don’t know that that makes sense though.

Many who were struggling with the temple had stopped attending.  God didn’t need to change the ceremony to give them the lesser portion (from your point of view) they had already done that to themselves. 

If you’re right, the change has given a lesser portion to those who had been “seeking the truth no matter how uncomfortable it made them.”

which is contradictory to how you (and Alma) said God behaves. 

[SettingDogStar]

21 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don’t know that that makes sense though.

Many who were struggling with the temple had stopped attending.  God didn’t need to change the ceremony to give them the lesser portion (from your point of view) they had already done that to themselves. 

If you’re right, the change has given a lesser portion to those who had been “seeking the truth no matter how uncomfortable it made them.”

which is contradictory to how you (and Alma) said God behaves. 

Im not sure I agree with his point of view necessarily BUT I see where he’s coming from. As a people the church may have been struggling with the way the Temple was structured, thus God changes it.

Yes there are those that will still attended and deserve the fullness and only receive the “lesser” portion but if they are truly seeking then God will reveal the the fullness to them individually. As whole though God wants to help His people as much as they want, He wants them to go the temple, church, meetings, anything He can so that they feel His presence even if that means a lower version of the law/doctrine/symbolism. 

Edited January 5, 2019 by SettingDogStar

[bluebell]

15 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

Im not sure I agree with his point of view necessarily BUT I see where he’s coming from. As a people the church may have been struggling with the way the Temple was structured, thus God changes it.

Yes there are those that will still attended and deserve the fullness and only receive the “lesser” portion but if they are truly seeking then God will reveal the the fullness to them individually. As whole though God wants to help His people as much as they want, He wants them to go the temple, church, meetings, anything He can so that they feel His presence even if that means a lower version of the law/doctrine/symbolism. 

I agree, this change might not be course correction but rather a tender mercy. 

And if, as you say, the change does not harm anyone (those who are prepared can still receive the higher portion while those who aren’t can have the lower) then even if the change isn’t a correction of a wrong, have we lost anything?  

 

[HappyJackWagon]

12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

That means it wasn't true at that time then right?  That's apparently how gospel truth works.

Whatever the current combination of the 15 prophets agree on in the only gospel truth.  Until a few of them pass on and the next 15 disagree.

Truth is always relative, situational, and progressive.  Nothing is absolutely unalterably true.

I think I'm getting it now...

Let's ordain women, do away with garments, decanonize D&C 132 and the Book of Abraham, stop honoring dead prophets, eliminate offices in the priesthood and make them church callings, end recommend interviews, make tithing an optional donation only for helping the poor, anything goes.  All we need is for the 15 to agree on it.

Onwards to Zion!

Sadly, you ARE getting it.

Those are the conclusions I came to a while back and I continue to see more evidence. I have no problem with fallibility of prophets or even a changing vision for the church based on culture and time, but it does remove some of the specialness I once attributed to the church. It's an organization with people doing their best to do what they think God wants them to do. I think that's really all we can/should expect.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

This argument can be used to claim god the father said something if a prophet says it. A loyal Mormon would ask - who gave the prophet the doctrines and words he taught?

Suddenly, all words come from God...

But maybe that’s your point?  Then why phrase it the way you did “the words of the father and the son...”?

You are shifting the goalposts now. I have been and am referring specifically to the current question, namely, whose words define the doctrines of baptism and authority in 2 Nephi 31 and 3 Nephi 11 and 12?

I said, 

Quote

The Book of Mormon clearly spells out in the words of the Father and the Son exactly what is required for salvation and that authority is needed to administer the parts that require ordinances.

Clearly they are the words of the Son and the Father. Moreover, Jesus explicitly says he obtained His words from the Father.

Quote

 

11 And the Father said: “Repent ye, repent ye, and be baptized in the name of my Beloved Son....15 Yea, the words of my Beloved are true and faithful. He that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved....20 Ye shall have eternal life.”

6 And behold, the third time they did understand the voice which they heard; and it said unto them:
7 “Behold my Beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased, in whom I have glorified my name--hear ye him.”

19 And Nephi arose and went forth, and bowed himself before the Lord and did kiss his feet.
20 And the Lord commanded him that he should arise. And he arose and stood before him.
21 And the Lord said unto him: I give unto you power that ye shall baptize this people when I am again ascended into heaven.
22 And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you.

31 Behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, I will declare unto you my doctrine. 32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.
33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.
34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.
35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me....

1 Blessed are ye if ye shall give heed unto the words of these twelve whom I have chosen from among you to minister unto you, and to be your servants; and unto them I have given power that they may baptize you with water; and after that ye are baptized with water, behold, I will baptize you with fire and with the Holy Ghost....

They clearly say that baptism is required for salvation and that those who baptize must have authority given by Christ. These are the words and the doctrines given to the Son by the Father, therefore, they are the words of the Father and the Son.

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[SettingDogStar]

29 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I agree, this change might not be course correction but rather a tender mercy. 

And if, as you say, the change does not harm anyone (those who are prepared can still receive the higher portion while those who aren’t can have the lower) then even if the change isn’t a correction of a wrong, have we lost anything?  

 

I suppose it depends on what changed as to wether I really think we lost something important. However if it IS because it’s an authorized  “lesser” portion (which I don’t know if it is or not yet) then its really just saddening. However if it’s NOT an authorized change then that’s where I get concerned because even if the leadership thinks we need to change something but God doesn’t, that’s where I would have a problem.

I haven’t really had time to have a conversation with the Lord about it yet though, so I can’t really comment on if the current change is really inspired or not.

[Bernard Gui]

 

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

But I'd love to be proven wrong and the Lord really is directing these changes. And if so, I'll get my act together, but only need help in the belief department. You see it's very difficult for me to believe because of the fallible leaders and things done and said in the past that would today land someone in jail or be regarded as not suitable to lead a church. 

 

What would you need to have this proof that you seek?

[bluebell]

6 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said:

I suppose it depends on what changed as to wether I really think we lost something important. However if it IS because it’s an authorized  “lesser” portion (which I don’t know if it is or not yet) then its really just saddening. However if it’s NOT an authorized change then that’s where I get concerned because even if the leadership thinks we need to change something but God doesn’t, that’s where I would have a problem.

I haven’t really had time to have a conversation with the Lord about it yet though, so I can’t really comment on if the current change is really inspired or not.

I’m also still trying to process this change. I’m going to the temple this afternoon (with thousands of others, I’m sure) as I don’t feel it’s right to try to come to any conclusions without experiencing it personally. 

But if this change is a merciful and loving lowering of the bar (so to speak), I don’t think that is necessarily a sad thing.

Christ taught that there is nothing more loving or Christlike than being willing to sacrifice our life for another.  If the temple change is a tender mercy for a few (and I’m not saying it is) then being asked to make a sacrifice to help save the spiritual life of a brother or sister isn’t sad to me, it’s loving and unifying and would feel like a bit of an honor. 

[Bernard Gui]

10 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The first time I participated in the significantly altered temple endowment ceremony of the late 1980s and 1990 I was very disappointed with the changes that had been made. After going through two endowment sessions with the new ceremony, I went downstairs and asked someone in the Temple administrative office if it was possible to have an unscheduled meeting with the Temple President. Soon thereafter the then Washington DC Temple President (I don’t remember his name) graciously greeted me and asked me to step inside his office so that we could talk. After introductions, I expressed my deep disappointment with the changes to the endowment that had been made, informing him that because I had previously been enabled to spiritually discern the profound spiritual meaning underlying the portions of the endowment that had been been removed, I felt a very real sense of sadness that some of the more wonderfully meaningful portions of the endowment had been deleted. He expressed his great surprise at my comment, informing me that of the hundreds of positive comments from others who were abslolutely delighted with the changes, I was the only one who had anything negative to say.

I went on to explain it seemed obvious to me the reason why the deleted portions had been removed is because it was likely the Church at large was no longer knowledgeable and spiritually mature enough to enjoy participating in the more meaningful and impactful temple endowment I had previously come to know and love. Further, I thought it odd that so many members of the Church were thrilled with the deletions because it seemed rather odd that for some strange reason they wanted less sacred symbolism in the endowment rather than more.

Anyway, you likely see where I’m going with this: It seems clear that the endowment has once again been truncated, at least in part, because a world that is so rapidly ripening in iniquity is no longer prepared and able to receive a fuller manifestation of the sacred truths once revealed in the fuller endowment presentations of the past. Rather than the previous iterations of the endowment being in error, the truth is we are no longer prepared and able to receive the fuller and deeper knowledge revealed through the endowments of the past. So in accord with the prophet Alma’s dictum that there are times when circumstances demand that sacred things have to be withdrawn from view, once again sacred things have been wisely withdrawn until the day when we as a people stop fighting and reviling against the truth of God and learn to appreciate and delight in the harder to digest meat of the gospel, even the mysteries of godliness. 

9 And now Alma began to expound these things unto him, saying: It is given unto many to know the mysteries of God; nevertheless they are laid under a strict command that they shall not impart, only according to the portion of his word which he doth grant unto the children of men, according to the heed and diligence which they give unto him.

10 And therefore, he that will harden his heart, the same receiveth the lesser portion of the word; and he that will not harden his heart, to him is given the greater portion of the word, until it is given unto him to know the mysteries of God until he know them in full... Alma 12:9-10

 

Wow. I was excoriated earlier in this discussion for just suggesting this could possibly be the case. 

Edited January 5, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[SettingDogStar]

Just now, bluebell said:

I’m also still trying to process this change. I’m going to the temple this afternoon (with thousands of others, I’m sure) as I don’t feel it’s right to try to come to any conclusions without experiencing it personally. 

But if this change is a merciful and loving lowering of the bar (so to speak), I don’t think that is necessarily a sad thing.

Christ taught that there is nothing more loving or Christlike than being willing to sacrifice our life for another.  If the temple change is a tender mercy for a few (and I’m not saying it is) then being asked to make a sacrifice to help save the spiritual life of a brother or sister isn’t sad to me, it’s loving and unifying and would feel like a bit of an honor. 

I guess it would be more sad because that means the majority of the church needed less then what God intended to give us. It’s good that the Lord is so merciful that He would not abandon us entirely but continue to give, as he did with the Law of Moses thousands of years ago. It’s a mercy but it was still saddening! 

And I agree, i haven’t gone yet so I don’t think it’s a appropriate for me to make any judgement just yet.

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Funny how different people see things.  I see the core part being the doctrine and actual covenants.

Or, all the above.

[SettingDogStar]

9 hours ago, teddyaware said:

He expressed his great surprise at my comment, informing me that of the hundreds of positive comments from others who were abslolutely delighted with the changes, I was the only one who had anything negative to say.

I’m very confused as to why people would be delighted at the change. As long as it would be I would over joyed to have been apart of the Quorum of the Anointed with a reported 8 hour endowment. The length would cease to matter and the knowledge that most likely was raining down upon them in those meetings was terribly wonderful. To feel delighted (unless it was false doctrine being removed or a alteration in the media presentation ) at changes is so very fascinating to me. I didn’t understand ALL the sykbomism when I got first endowed, but it gave me a giant puzzle to start unlocking and it’s been wonderful since..to remove some of those puzzle pieces that most likely belonged in the beginning is just sad to me.

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Where do you think you need to be, and what do you think you need to be doing, in order to obtain this proof?

I was asked in our preparation meeting this morning to officiate the first endowment session of our shift. That means that it was my duty to stand at the altar as a message from the First Presidency was read out. Maybe it should have been, but this was not a big deal for me. I was already familiar with the content of the message from the evening before, and I have zero issues (pro or con) regarding the content or intent of the message. As a result, I was neither seeking nor expecting anything from this experience in any way.

Moreover, as I've noted several times before on this board, I'm not a terribly 'spiritual' man in the way that word is often defined in Latter-day Saint circles. My knowledge of spiritual things tends heavily to arise from repeated practical experience, not 'manifestations' of any kind. When I do feel prompted spiritually, it nearly always requires acting on that prompting before I'm even certain the prompting was real. As a result, I have never in my entire Church life prayed about the Book of Mormon, nor have I ever received a 'spiritual witness' of that book that matches what I've heard other people report.

I say all that as background context for what happened as I stood at the temple altar this morning as a short, simple message from the First Presidency was read out. Without my even thinking about such a thing, I was filled head to toe with a spiritual witness so strong that I was overcome and reduced to weeping. I don't quite know how to explain it, but the light was so brilliant and the rejoicing so heady and the gratitude so intense, all at once, that my body couldn't contain it all, and my eyes seemed to be the best release valve. It was completely unexpected, but I am a witness today that the Lord God is directing His Church through living, authorised prophets, seers and revelators.

Now, that's my experience, and like the proverbial lamp oil, I have no capacity to transform it into your experience. But you get yourself into the right places and doing the necessary things so that you might have your own experience, please!

I appreciate your honesty in expressing that you never prayed about the BoM. Nor of receiving any kind of spiritual witness of the book compared to others, I've always felt the same. And I cannot get past a certain point in the book where I am wandering away and then have to re-read it. I guess I haven't been able to grasp what everyone else has, not saying this is your experience. But you made me feel a bit better that I'm not a total loss.

I also appreciate your sharing your experience, I've yet to experience anything of the kind, besides just warm feelings when someone is sharing a sweet story of someone being good to someone in the church or something like that.

I get the feeling I'm hard as stone and unpenetrable in the department of letting the Divine or anyone on the other side come through. I lost my ability to pray in faith but do still try to kneel and pray but get kind of angry too. 

I still believe in something bigger than me, and larger than life. So holding onto that.

Thanks again for sharing Hamba!

[Rain]

Why is it automatically assumed that those who were bothered by things in the temple had hardened their hearts?  

When I was young I tried to be obedient to the point that it drove my parents crazy a little, I drank in all things spiritual, I loved learning anything the Lord would give me.  Then I went to the temple in 1989 and it was so very difficult for me that I wasn't sure I would go again and it really bothered me that something I had looked forward to all my life and heard such wonderful things about - that I was considering not going again.  How could this be?  I was so grateful for a past young women's president that took me again and that I was able to go a few more times before I went on my mission.

When I came home it had changed, but still the first time stuck with me.  I have had some beautiful experiences since then - some concerning my children, some my husband.  One full year where Heavenly Father took me there again and again trying to help me and giving me some peace.  I took my daughter there last year and it was a sweet experience.

I have have said prayer after prayer after prayer for several decades opening my heart to the Lord for understanding.  I have never been given the calling of RS teacher, but it seems the Lord wants me to understand better so I have been given a number of opportunities to sub on lessons about the temple.  

My heart has not been closed to the temple.

I can just hear it now, "Well, I know there are some INDIVIDUALS, like you, who had an open heart, but people as a WHOLE have had their hearts closed and that's what I am talking about", yet so MANY of the individuals I have talked with are like me and we make up an awful lot of the whole.   

So maybe, just maybe, the Lord is giving a way for those of us who HAVE had our hearts open an opportunity to learn many of the things you were able to learn before. I never once prayed for the the temple to change, but I prayed for understanding and peace and I feel the Lord is answering my prayers in a way that I never thought would happen. 

Maybe if you look upon our hearts you will also learn something you didn't learn in the temple before.  

Edited January 5, 2019 by Rain

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, SettingDogStar said:

Im not sure I agree with his point of view necessarily BUT I see where he’s coming from. As a people the church may have been struggling with the way the Temple was structured, thus God changes it.

Yes there are those that will still attended and deserve the fullness and only receive the “lesser” portion but if they are truly seeking then God will reveal the the fullness to them individually. As whole though God wants to help His people as much as they want, He wants them to go the temple, church, meetings, anything He can so that they feel His presence even if that means a lower version of the law/doctrine/symbolism. 

For some reason your post made me think of the "Work and Glory" book series. I ate them up in my true believing days. I remember at the time reading in Vol. 4 about the refiner's fire. https://www.amazon.com/Work-Glory-Vol-Gold-Refine/dp/1590386523

Malachi 3:1-3 King James Version (KJV)

3 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

This makes me wonder why the Lord would make it easier than harder. 

 

[Tacenda]

32 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

What would you need to have this proof that you seek?

Well, something to the degree that some here have, I guess. 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

For some reason your post made me think of the "Work and Glory" book series. I ate them up in my true believing days. I remember at the time reading in Vol. 4 about the refiner's fire. https://www.amazon.com/Work-Glory-Vol-Gold-Refine/dp/1590386523

Malachi 3:1-3 King James Version (KJV)

3 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the Lord of hosts.

2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

This makes me wonder why the Lord would make it easier than harder. 

 

Part of refining silver is knowing when to remove it from the heat so that it’s not ruined. Maybe that would have something to do with it. 

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

Why is it automatically assumed that those who were bothered by things in the temple had hardened their hearts?  

When I was young I tried to be obedient to the point that it drove my parents crazy a little, I drank in all things spiritual, I loved learning anything the Lord would give me.  Then I went to the temple in 1989 and it was so very difficult for me that I wasn't sure I would go again and it really bothered me that something I had looked forward to all my life and heard such wonderful things about - that I was considering not going again.  How could this be?  I was so grateful for a past young women's president that took me again and that I was able to go a few more times before I went on my mission.

When I came home it had changed, but still the first time stuck with me.  I have had some beautiful experiences since then - some concerning my children, some my husband.  One full year where Heavenly Father took me there again and again trying to help me and giving me some peace.  I took my daughter there last year and it was a sweet experience.

I have have said prayer after prayer after prayer for several decades opening my heart to the Lord for understanding.  I have never been given the calling of RS teacher, but it seems the Lord wants me to understand better so I have been given a number of opportunities to sub on lessons about the temple.  

My heart has not been closed to the temple.

I can just hear it now, "Well, I know there are some INDIVIDUALS, like you, who had an open heart, but people as a WHOLE have had their hearts closed and that's what I am talking about", yet so MANY of the individuals I have talked with are like me and we make up an awful lot of the whole.   

So maybe, just maybe the Lord is giving a way for those of us who HAVE had our hearts open and opportunity to learn many of the things you were able to learn before. I never once prayed for the the temple to change, but I prayed for understanding and peace and I feel the Lord is answering my prayers in a way that I never thought would happen. 

Maybe if you look upon our hearts you will also learn something you didn't learn in the temple before.  

Perfectly said!

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The "penalties" underscored the life and death nature of what we do here upon earth, and were very meaningful, to me at least.  I would suffer my life to be taken rather than betray the Lord Jesus Christ.  It is my fond hope that at the end of my days it might be found that I loved as He loved, am counted as a "good and faithful servant", having kept the faith and finished the race. 

When my great-grandfather joined the Church in Tennessee in the 1880s, there was a lot of bitter anti-Mormon sentiment that culminated in the Cane Creek massacre of two missionaries, a couple of members, the death of the mob leader, threats to other missionaries, and the forced expulsion of all the Saints from the area. During those years, mobbers would stop men who were strangers on the roads or trails. They ripped open their coats and shirts to see if they were wearing temple garments, and beat them and order them to get out if they were. In order to get into the massacre scene to get information, one missionary had to hide his garments in the woods to avoid detention. BH Roberts, the mission president, had to go there in disguise and secrecy to retrieve the bodies to be sent home.

I often wonder if I have the courage to keep the covenants had I been there or if that were to become something done today. 

Edited January 5, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Part of refining silver is knowing when to remove it from the heat so that it’s not ruined. Maybe that would have something to do with it. 

Wow, when you put it that way. 

[Bernard Gui]

9 hours ago, rockpond said:

There ya go... lower your expectations people!  Then, you’ll be happy. 

 

I don’t see it as lowering expectations.

[Rain]

8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I appreciate your honesty in expressing that you never prayed about the BoM. Nor of receiving any kind of spiritual witness of the book compared to others, I've always felt the same. And I cannot get past a certain point in the book where I am wandering away and then have to re-read it. I guess I haven't been able to grasp what everyone else has, not saying this is your experience. But you made me feel a bit better that I'm not a total loss.

I also appreciate your sharing your experience, I've yet to experience anything of the kind, besides just warm feelings when someone is sharing a sweet story of someone being good to someone in the church or something like that.

I get the feeling I'm hard as stone and unpenetrable in the department of letting the Divine or anyone on the other side come through. I lost my ability to pray in faith but do still try to kneel and pray but get kind of angry too. 

I still believe in something bigger than me, and larger than life. So holding onto that.

Thanks again for sharing Hamba!

No, you are not.  I see signs all the time that you are not.  I've been thinking about this song when I read your posts lately and thought of it as Hamba wrote:

Quote

1. Lead, kindly Light, amid th'encircling gloom;
   Lead thou me on!
   The night is dark, and I am far from home;
   Lead thou me on!
   Keep thou my feet; I do not ask to see
   The distant scene--one step enough for me.
2. 2. I was not ever thus, nor pray'd that thou
   Shouldst lead me on.
   I loved to choose and see my path; but now,
   Lead thou me on!
   I loved the garish day, and, spite of fears,
   Pride ruled my will. Remember not past years.

You can see that Hamba walked through the dark a good long ways before he saw the light, but you only have to read his posts to see he wasn't in complete darkness all along.  It just may have felt that way sometimes. He was seeing things working in his life so he kept taking step upon step, line upon line.  

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

You are shifting the goalposts now. I have been and am referring specifically to the current question, namely, whose words define the doctrines of baptism and authority in 2 Nephi 31 and 3 Nephi 11 and 12?

I said, 

Clearly they are the words of the Son and the Father. Moreover, Jesus explicitly says he obtained His words from the Father.

They clearly say that baptism is required for salvation and that those who baptize must have authority given by Christ. These are the words and the doctrines given to the Son by the Father, therefore, they are the words of the Father and the Son.

 

 

 

Oh, Bernard. I just don’t see it like you do. 

[Bernard Gui]

34 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And I cannot get past a certain point in the book where I am wandering away and then have to re-read it. I guess I haven't been able to grasp what everyone else has, not saying this is your experience. But you made me feel a bit better that I'm not a total loss

Try just this part...3 Nephi 17, 18, and 19.