I just wanted to say

[MustardSeed]

57 minutes ago, Alan said:

In my ward the women won't shut up and let the rest of us speak!

Testimony meeting is very much dominated by women, both in number and in time (travelogue after travelogue), and there are a couple of sisters in Gospel Doctrine class who suffer from verbal diarrhoea.

Haha!  I’ve seen that too.  Each ward has its personality.   

Self awareness is a talent. 

[JAHS]

9 hours ago, Rain said:

9 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Of course men are to blame.   Saying they're not to blame for something is simply crazy talk.  

Serious question. Why are you reacting in this way? Was there something she specifically said that gave you the impression that men are to blame?

The point is, even if it is the women's fault it's still the men's fault. It's in the list of those rules according to women:
The female is never wrong.
If the female is wrong it is because of something the man did.

[stemelbow]

Whether it's men or women doing the talking, all I know is the diversity of thought is extremely limited in Mormonism.  There's a distinct pressure in every place I've been that those who speak, speak when they are repeating the correlated voice of the Church and if ever someone deviates, someone, usually a man, chimes in to get the discussion back on track to correlation.  It's often said with a great deal of assumed authority, and often with some amount of shame attached.  It's too bad because the Church is set up to be a great vehicle for thoughtful dialogue.  But it never gets there.  

So on this topic, I will say men assume authority in classes because of the priesthood.  And "assumed" is the wrong word, even though I prefer it, because the Church has set it up that way.  Who is to speak last in meetings?  who is to be the one to correct any voice in class?  Why it is the priesthood, of course. There has been a significant effort to clarify women can speak in church, even if some agree with the NT, and so women speak, but they are pressured, just as the men, to participation only in a correlated way.  On that front, what I have noticed is women could speak for an entire class even if the class is mixed, and one comment by a man might nix all that is said up to that point.  I also notice many women taking issue with certain men in the ward because of that.  I don't blame them because sometimes these guys are ding dong, know-it-alls and aren't very tolerant of people who don't say things correctly.  

[bluebell]

28 minutes ago, JAHS said:

The point is, even if it is the women's fault it's still the men's fault. It's in the list of those rules according to women:
The female is never wrong.
If the female is wrong it is because of something the man did.

Are you joking or are you being serious? I'm sincerely asking because I'm really not sure.

[Jane_Doe]

10 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Maybe it’s just a cowgirl thing.  I live in the western part of the US. 

The imbalance in female participation is unique to my ward....I’ve never seen anything like it.  

And yes Glenn, women have always been very strong testimony sharers. 

Cowgirl country here too (I'm in WY).  The ladies speak whenever they feel like it without any apologies.  It's something like ~60 of the conversation said by ladies.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Jane_Doe

[Avatar4321]

10 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

In my large ward, testimonies are shared mostly only by men.  Sunday school is male dominated in terms of participation.  I don’t think that’s typical.  My ward is, well, challenging for me at times. I used to participate to do my part but it doesn’t feel genuine and I’m sick of the sound of my ow voice.

Have you ever noticed that often times, women especially in a mixed sex crowd will state the following preface after being called upon:  “I just wanted to say...” etc.   

I hear that as an apologetic way of introducing thoughts.?

I rarely hear men say that.  They do, but not nearly as often as the women. 

Pet peeve, now passed into the internetic universe.  Thanks, I feel much better.   Edit to say, I don’t think the men are to blame.  Ladies of my ward, step it up!!

You’ve truly established Zion;)

just teasing. Good luck with your exhortation 

[JAHS]

42 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Are you joking or are you being serious? I'm sincerely asking because I'm really not sure.

Joking

The RULES, According to Women
1.      The female always makes the rules.
2.      The rules are subject to change at any time without prior notification.
3.      No male can possibly know all the rules.
4.      If the female suspects the male knows all the rules, she must immediately change some or all of the rules.
5.      The female is NEVER wrong.
6.      If the female is wrong, it is because of a flagrant misunderstanding, which was a direct result of something the male did or said wrong.
7.      If rule #6 applies, the male must apologize immediately for causing the misunderstanding.
8.      The female can change her mind at any given point in time.
9.      The male must NEVER change his mind without express written consent from the female.
10. The female has every right to be angry or upset at any time.
11. The male must remain calm at ALL time, unless the female wants him to be angry or upset.
12.  The female must under NO circumstances let the male know whether or not she wants him to be angry or upset.
13.  Any attempt to document the rules could result in bodily harm.
14.  If the female has PMS, all rules are null and void.

[MustardSeed]

I just wanted to say ( ! ) that I can laugh with you on this list of tongue and cheek rules and at the same time recognize that in sarcasm there is always passive aggression and an element of truth. 

I will cop to #11.  It’s my fantasy that my husband will be calm 90% and only reactive when I need him to be.  Poor guy. 

In all seriousness, if each sex would stop blaming and trying to change each other and instead look at their own tendencies..... dramatic sigh....  we might actually get somewhere. 

I’m just trying to say, ladies, let’s act as if we belong, and show up 100% and be self aware and not hog the stand but at the same time not apologize for having something to say. 

[JAHS]

56 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Joking

The RULES, According to Women
1.      The female always makes the rules.
2.      The rules are subject to change at any time without prior notification.
3.      No male can possibly know all the rules.
4.      If the female suspects the male knows all the rules, she must immediately change some or all of the rules.
5.      The female is NEVER wrong.
6.      If the female is wrong, it is because of a flagrant misunderstanding, which was a direct result of something the male did or said wrong.
7.      If rule #6 applies, the male must apologize immediately for causing the misunderstanding.
8.      The female can change her mind at any given point in time.
9.      The male must NEVER change his mind without express written consent from the female.
10. The female has every right to be angry or upset at any time.
11. The male must remain calm at ALL time, unless the female wants him to be angry or upset.
12.  The female must under NO circumstances let the male know whether or not she wants him to be angry or upset.
13.  Any attempt to document the rules could result in bodily harm.
14.  If the female has PMS, all rules are null and void.

To be fair I have to follow up with the Rules according to men: 

1. Learn to work the toilet seat. You’re a big girl. If it’s up, put it down We need it up, you need it down. You don’t hear us complaining about you leaving it down.
1. Sunday sports. It’s like the full moon or the changing of the tides! Let it be. 
1. Shopping is NOT a sport. And no, we are never going to think of it that way.
1. Crying is blackmail.
1. Ask for what you want. Let us be clear on this one: Subtle hints do not work! Strong hints do not work! Obvious hints do not work!
Just say it!
1. Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers to almost every question.
1. Come to us with a problem only if you want help solving it. That’s what we do. Sympathy is what your girlfriends are for.
1. A headache that lasts for 17 months is a problem. See a doctor.
1. Anything we said 6 months ago is inadmissible in an argument. In fact, all comments become null and void after 7 days.
1. If you won’t dress like the Victoria’s Secret girls, don’t expect us to act like soap opera guys.
1… If you think you’re fat, you probably are.
Don’t ask us.
1. If something we said can be interpreted two ways and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, we meant the other one.
1. You can either ask us to do something or tell us how you want it done. Not both. If you already know best how to do it, just do it yourself
1. Whenever possible, please say whatever you have to say during commercials
1. Christopher Columbus did not need directions and neither do we.
1. ALL men see in only 16 colors, like Windows default settings. Peach, for example, is a fruit, not a color. Pumpkin is also a fruit. We have no idea what mauve is.
1. If it itches, it will be scratched. We do that.
1. If we ask what is wrong and you say "nothing," we will act like nothing’s wrong. We know you are lying, but it is just not worth the hassle.
1. If you ask a question you don’t want an answer to, expect an answer you don’t want to hear.
1. When we have to go somewhere, absolutely anything you wear is fine…Really.
1. Don’t ask us what we’re thinking about unless you are prepared to discuss such topics as NASCAR, baseball, the shotgun formation, or monster trucks.
1. You have enough clothes.
1. You have too many shoes.
1. I am in shape. Round is a shape.
1. If you have any questions, please refer to rule #1.
 

[bluebell]

2 minutes ago, JAHS said:

To be fair I have to follow up with the Rules according to men: 

1. Learn to work the toilet seat. You’re a big girl. If it’s up, put it down We need it up, you need it down. You don’t hear us complaining about you leaving it down.
1. Sunday sports. It’s like the full moon or the changing of the tides! Let it be. 
1. Shopping is NOT a sport. And no, we are never going to think of it that way.
1. Crying is blackmail.
1. Ask for what you want. Let us be clear on this one: Subtle hints do not work! Strong hints do not work! Obvious hints do not work!
Just say it!
1. Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers to almost every question.
1. Come to us with a problem only if you want help solving it. That’s what we do. Sympathy is what your girlfriends are for.
1. A headache that lasts for 17 months is a problem. See a doctor.
1. Anything we said 6 months ago is inadmissible in an argument. In fact, all comments become null and void after 7 days.
1. If you won’t dress like the Victoria’s Secret girls, don’t expect us to act like soap opera guys.
1… If you think you’re fat, you probably are.
Don’t ask us.
1. If something we said can be interpreted two ways and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, we meant the other one.
1. You can either ask us to do something or tell us how you want it done. Not both. If you already know best how to do it, just do it yourself
1. Whenever possible, please say whatever you have to say during commercials
1. Christopher Columbus did not need directions and neither do we.
1. ALL men see in only 16 colors, like Windows default settings. Peach, for example, is a fruit, not a color. Pumpkin is also a fruit. We have no idea what mauve is.
1. If it itches, it will be scratched. We do that.
1. If we ask what is wrong and you say "nothing," we will act like nothing’s wrong. We know you are lying, but it is just not worth the hassle.
1. If you ask a question you don’t want an answer to, expect an answer you don’t want to hear.
1. When we have to go somewhere, absolutely anything you wear is fine…Really.
1. Don’t ask us what we’re thinking about unless you are prepared to discuss such topics as NASCAR, baseball, the shotgun formation, or monster trucks.
1. You have enough clothes.
1. You have too many shoes.
1. I am in shape. Round is a shape.
1. If you have any questions, please refer to rule #1.
 

The rules for women sound like they were written by a man.  And the rules for men also sound like they were written by a man.  It'd be interested in hearing the rules for men that were written by a woman.   

[mfbukowski]

12 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

 

Edited November 16, 2018 by mfbukowski

[MustardSeed]

That’s too easy. In the spirit of the game here:  Be pretty, be smart but not too smart, be like my mom but not in the bedroom, and be pretty. 

In truth though, I believe most men are kind and make plenty of space for women. I just think the extreme cases of sexists tend to be noisier than the rest. Just like women. 

I am so fortunate to be married to a guy who IMO has all the traditionally manly stuff I appreciate but who supports all the ways I show up in the world unapologetically. ❤️

[Tacenda]

I love this board!! How bout' no rules, we are all individuals here. And JAHS you might want to look at yourself and think...hmm maybe I'm thinking inside the box? Not all men think like that and not all women. No more cookie cutter ideas, we're all shapes, sizes, attitudes, likes, dislikes etc.

[Tacenda]

17 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

That’s too easy. In the spirit of the game here:  Be pretty, be smart but not too smart, be like my mom but not in the bedroom, and be pretty. 

In truth though, I believe most men are kind and make plenty of space for women. I just think the extreme cases of sexists tend to be noisier than the rest. Just like women. 

I am so fortunate to be married to a guy who IMO has all the traditionally manly stuff I appreciate but who supports all the ways I show up in the world unapologetically. ❤️

This is golden!!

[MorningStar]

When I graduated from HS and first started going to Gospel Doctrine, I absolutely hated it. The men sometimes belittled each other and it was like a contest to show who was the greatest scriptorian, so the women didn't say a word. We all felt comfortable giving our two cents in Relief Society, but in Gospel Doctrine, we felt like our comments were going to be shot down by the two or three men who won't ever stop talking. As for testimony meeting, it was probably more women because people don't argue with you while you're bearing your testimony. 

[katherine the great]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

To be fair I have to follow up with the Rules according to men: 

1. Learn to work the toilet seat. You’re a big girl. If it’s up, put it down We need it up, you need it down. You don’t hear us complaining about you leaving it down.

 

Stupidest argument ever.

Hey honey! You're a big boy! Learn to work the garage door! If I leave it open when I go to work just get over it! The cupboard doors? Yeah, I like them open all the time--you close them! Your desk  and dresser drawers? Leave em open baby!

Toilet seats belong closed--all the way. Unless you clean it before and after you use it, keep it closed at all times. No one wants to see inside a toilet.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, JAHS said:

The point is, even if it is the women's fault it's still the men's fault. It's in the list of those rules according to women:
The female is never wrong.
If the female is wrong it is because of something the man did.

I have never understood the humor of this type of joke.  It is so demeaning of the men and of the women and is so uncharitable to a relationship that is supposed to be celestial for church members.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

1 hour ago, katherine the great said:

Stupidest argument ever.

Hey honey! You're a big boy! Learn to work the garage door! If I leave it open when I go to work just get over it! The cupboard doors? Yeah, I like them open all the time--you close them! Your desk  and dresser drawers? Leave em open baby!

Toilet seats belong closed--all the way. Unless you clean it before and after you use it, keep it closed at all times. No one wants to see inside a toilet.

I don't care about convenience, do care about looks, especially if the toilet isn't pristine.  But most important to me is it is unhygienic to flush with the lid up as the water sprays out.  I think of the droplets floating around and settling on walls, countertops...toothbrushes...my next house must have a toilet room for all bathrooms, not just the master.

But even so, I have never complained even after a middle of the night bum dip in cold water because I didn't notice the seat up.  I hear a lot more men complaining about women complaining than I hear women complaining.  And we have a guest bathroom in the main hallway that visitors have to walk past.  It is embarrassing to me if the toilet seat is up, especially since that toilet often doesn't fully flush and has impossible to remove mineral stains.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Calm

[pogi]

3 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Toilet seats belong closed--all the way. 

Well, that is one sex's perspective anyway , which just reinforces rule #1

Quote

1.      The female always makes the rules

 

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2018 by pogi

[pogi]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

But even so, I have never complained even after a middle of the night bum dip in cold water because I didn't notice the seat up

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Stupidest argument ever.

Hey honey! You're a big boy! Learn to work the garage door! If I leave it open when I go to work just get over it! The cupboard doors? Yeah, I like them open all the time--you close them! Your desk  and dresser drawers? Leave em open baby!

Toilet seats belong closed--all the way. Unless you clean it before and after you use it, keep it closed at all times. No one wants to see inside a toilet.

My dad taught me that. He said "always close the black hole of Calcutta!" I still leave it open part of the time, but having inadvertantly sat on a gaping, cold, porcelain edge from time to time (or, as @Calm puts it, had a "bum dip," ROFL), I try to make sure the ring, at least, is down.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

48 minutes ago, Calm said:

I have never understood the humor of this type of joke.  It is so demeaning of the men and of the women and is so uncharitable to a relationship that is supposed to be celestial for church members.

I understand the humor because my loving and beloved late wife seemed to truly believe "the female is always right" thing. I think she would even have admitted to it. And for all I know she might even have been right about it, in her case. It doesn't make our relationship any less celestial to admit that we have faults.

Every individual has their own "thing". 

And I've met men who couldn't admit they were wrong about anything, too. It's a common failing.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Stargazer

[Calm]

6 hours ago, JAHS said:

To be fair I have to follow up with the Rules according to men: 

1. Learn to work the toilet seat. You’re a big girl. If it’s up, put it down We need it up, you need it down. You don’t hear us complaining about you leaving it down.

-----Actually I have heard my husband complain about it.  And there is so much more complaining about women complaining than there are women complaining, so men appear to be obsessed with this topic to me.

1. Sunday sports. It’s like the full moon or the changing of the tides! Let it be. 

-----Never bothered me, great time to go read a book.

1. Shopping is NOT a sport. And no, we are never going to think of it that way.

-----Yeah, right.  It is my husband that goes to the store to pick up eggs or milk when we get semiclose to needing it and spends hours reading labels and trying stuff out and coming home with gadgets I have to then find space to put since his idea of organizing is every left on the countertop easy to be seen...except then it gets buried.  I stopped doing shopping eons ago since he would go out anyway.

And my dad and camping gear!  How many friends spend hours and days debating hunting rifles. Just go buy the one that works like you want.  Skip he bells and whistles you will never use.

1. Crying is blackmail.

----Yeah, I hate it when my husband goes all mushy eye on me.

1. Ask for what you want. Let us be clear on this one: Subtle hints do not work! Strong hints do not work! Obvious hints do not work!
Just say it!

-----😥Ever think you miss the point because you aren't actually listening?  Too busy watching the commercials as well?  What I find interesting is I can write out instructions, fill out calendars with dates and times and yet the next week or even day I am asked to repeat the same thing.  I am not your secretary.

1. Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers to almost every question.

-----And would this work at work if you are asked to supply info on inventory needs or judge the effectiveness of a product or procedure?  Somehow I doubt it.  From what I have seen, the excess of meetings and paperwork at work or church is not a result of women demanding them.

1. Come to us with a problem only if you want help solving it. That’s what we do. Sympathy is what your girlfriends are for.

-----Fine by me.  Please do the same though.  Don't start complaining about work or being cut off on the drive or being told to shut up by someone else.  Your problem is with them, not me.

1. A headache that lasts for 17 months is a problem. See a doctor.

-----Same with back pain or colds.  Don't sulk around for months on end making everyone around you miserable and then brag about how stoic you are.

1. Anything we said 6 months ago is inadmissible in an argument. In fact, all comments become null and void after 7 days.

-----As long as the same rules apply for me, great.  Funny how the men in my life act like I never change or learn anything and just because I had to skip out once, I got the you aren't reliable or trustworthy for the rest of my life or theirs (thankfully this is not my husband) 

1. If you won’t dress like the Victoria’s Secret girls, don’t expect us to act like soap opera guys.

------I gag at the thought.

1… If you think you’re fat, you probably are.

----I find it remarkable that so many fat guys think they are not though...at least judging by the women they think should be attracted to them.

1. If something we said can be interpreted two ways and one of the ways makes you sad or angry, we meant the other one.

-----Great.

1. You can either ask us to do something or tell us how you want it done. Not both. If you already know best how to do it, just do it yourself

-----I do.  Better use of my time and energy.

1. Whenever possible, please say whatever you have to say during commercials

----Old school with the pause buttons which I hope men are mostly capable of figuring out how to use.  Also don't expect to get my attention immediately if you are only willing to fit your comments between your tv shows.

1. Christopher Columbus did not need directions and neither do we.

-----I just love the extra half hour or more sitting in the car on my bruised tailbone.  Maybe I should start insisting on driving to save us both time, but then you would have to be the bored passenger all the time, that just wouldn't be right, would it?

1. ALL men see in only 16 colors, like Windows default settings. Peach, for example, is a fruit, not a color. Pumpkin is also a fruit. We have no idea what mauve is.

-----Who cares?  I choose my own colors.

1. If it itches, it will be scratched. We do that.

-----Again, who cares.  Stop obsessing about what others think.

1. If we ask what is wrong and you say "nothing," we will act like nothing’s wrong. We know you are lying, but it is just not worth the hassle.

-----I love when men think they are mindreaders and yet are too lazy to make use of that awesome talent.  So much easier to just assume a woman is thinking what you want them to be thinking.  And please on your end act like nothing is wrong when you say nothing instead of sulking all day.

1. If you ask a question you don’t want an answer to, expect an answer you don’t want to hear.

-----who asks questions they don't want answered?  Projection perhaps (I am thinking a good many of these rules are pure projection).

1. When we have to go somewhere, absolutely anything you wear is fine…Really.

-----Doesn't really matter to me what you care about what I wear.

1. Don’t ask us what we’re thinking about unless you are prepared to discuss such topics as NASCAR, baseball, the shotgun formation, or monster trucks.

-----Strange to be so proud of having such limited attention and awareness of life, but your choice.  Easy enough on my part to find more intelligent conversation or a good book to read.

1. You have enough clothes.

1. You have too many shoes.

-----why are you obsessing about what someone else has?  Isn't your life interesting enough to focus on?

1. I am in shape. Round is a shape.

-----As long as you don't care what shape I am in, I don't care what shape you are in.

1. If you have any questions, please refer to rule #1.

-----Humor instead of logic....how predictable.
 

 

Edited November 16, 2018 by Calm

[MustardSeed]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

I admit I never read the original list because I got the gyst early. Couldn’t finish this one cuz honestly  Calm your response was just depressing as all hail.  

i cant wait to go home, sit on the toilet in whatever state it’s in and chill with my imperfect husband. 

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I understand the humor because my loving and beloved late wife seemed to truly believe "the female is always right" thing. I think she would even have admitted to it. And for all I know she might even have been right about it, in her case. It doesn't make our relationship any less celestial to admit that we have faults.

Every individual has their own "thing". 

And I've met men who couldn't admit they were wrong about anything, too. It's a common failing.

Well, my grandmother would even tell us "you know I am right" until we agreed with " yes, you are right".

But then my dad...having her example...was constantly telling us "you don't have to reinvent the wheel", his way of saying " father knows best".  And then he would get frustrated we were too nervous to try something without his support or when some of us returned to the nest when we were unable to solve our own problems because he hadn't given us the opportunity to experiment on our own before reality hit (thank goodness, God doesn't operate that way).

From what I have seen, that level of arrogance or self centeredness is nongender specific.

And he typical response is to insist, perhaps silently, the person is wrong...thus ending up with the opposite response that one wants.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Calm