The planets and the reckoning of time

[theplains]

I had a question on these verses.

Abraham 3:4 - "And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the 
manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one 
revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years 
according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the 
Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob."

Abraham 3:5 - "And the Lord said unto me: The planet which is the lesser light, lesser than that 
which is to rule the day, even the night, is above or greater than that upon which thou standest 
in point of reckoning, for it moveth in order more slow; this is in order because it standeth 
above the earth upon which thou standest, therefore the reckoning of its time is not so many as 
to its number of days, and of months, and of years."

What is the context and meaning?

Thanks,
Jim

[JAHS]

It means in Kolob time I am only 94 minutes old. 

[kllindley]

I have always understood this to be a passage teaching that time is relative and that our mortal perceptions are not the same as God's. 

I arrived at the conclusion at age 19 that this passage is not intended to be a literal explanation of God's time versus Earth time. I have not believed it since. 

[JAHS]

14 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I have always understood this to be a passage teaching that time is relative and that our mortal perceptions are not the same as God's. 

I arrived at the conclusion at age 19 that this passage is not intended to be a literal explanation of God's time versus Earth time. I have not believed it since. 

I tend to agree. We use time here on earth and in the physical universe to help us plan and live our lives. Time really means nothing to God. There will be no clocks or calendars in the Celestial Kingdom.

[Nofear]

It is easy for us to adopt a contemporary way of thinking about Abraham's astronomy. It's probably not the right way to go and so the question may not be asking the right thing either.

And I Saw the Stars – The Book of Abraham and Ancient Geocentric Astronomy

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

It means in Kolob time I am only 94 minutes old. 

Yet when the Lord says he is coming quickly it still takes hours.

Edit: I apologize for this post being inane.

Edited October 25, 2018 by The Nehor

[mapman]

4 hours ago, theplains said:

I had a question on these verses.

Abraham 3:4 - "And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the 
manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one 
revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years 
according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the 
Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob."

Abraham 3:5 - "And the Lord said unto me: The planet which is the lesser light, lesser than that 
which is to rule the day, even the night, is above or greater than that upon which thou standest 
in point of reckoning, for it moveth in order more slow; this is in order because it standeth 
above the earth upon which thou standest, therefore the reckoning of its time is not so many as 
to its number of days, and of months, and of years."

What is the context and meaning?

Thanks,
Jim

I don't know how literally to take all of this, but the point of the passage seems to be to compare the hierarchy of stars to the great chain of being described afterwards. See verses 17 and 18: "Now, if there be two things, one above the other, and the moon be above the earth, then it may be that a planet or a star may exist above it... Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other..."

The light of the stars is described as emanating from the throne of God (Facsimile 2, fig. 5) outwards to all the stars. The stars closer to the throne of God are described as being created first, to be governing stars, to measure longer periods of time, and as "great ones" among the stars. Similarly, among the intelligences described later in the chapter there is God who is at the head of the chain, then come the "noble and great ones" who were to be rulers and prophets. Like the light that is said to be emanated out to all the stars, his priesthood also emanates out, I presume through the noble and great intelligences (Facsimile 2, fig. 7: "Represents God sitting upon his throne, revealing through the heavens the grand Key-words of the Priesthood").

[Gray]

4 hours ago, theplains said:

I had a question on these verses.

Abraham 3:4 - "And the Lord said unto me, by the Urim and Thummim, that Kolob was after the 
manner of the Lord, according to its times and seasons in the revolutions thereof; that one 
revolution was a day unto the Lord, after his manner of reckoning, it being one thousand years 
according to the time appointed unto that whereon thou standest. This is the reckoning of the 
Lord’s time, according to the reckoning of Kolob."

Abraham 3:5 - "And the Lord said unto me: The planet which is the lesser light, lesser than that 
which is to rule the day, even the night, is above or greater than that upon which thou standest 
in point of reckoning, for it moveth in order more slow; this is in order because it standeth 
above the earth upon which thou standest, therefore the reckoning of its time is not so many as 
to its number of days, and of months, and of years."

What is the context and meaning?

Thanks,
Jim

If Kolob maintains a constant speed of 99.9999499999999% of the speed of light, God will a experience 1 year passage of time while we experience 1000 years, due to time dilation effects. Nudge up the speed a bit more and you'll get 1 day per 1000 years.

 

[The Nehor]

16 minutes ago, Gray said:

If Kolob maintains a constant speed of 99.9999499999999% of the speed of light, God will a experience 1 year passage of time while we experience 1000 years, due to time dilation effects. Nudge up the speed a bit more and you'll get 1 day per 1000 years.

 

So that is what he meant when he said he comes quickly?

[Gray]

8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So that is what he meant when he said he comes quickly?

His name during his mortal life was Wally West.

[strappinglad]

Well, the moon does take just under 30 earth days to rotate once so it does move that way slower than the earth and hence has fewer " days" than the earth. Sort of.

[theplains]

On 10/25/2018 at 12:10 AM, strappinglad said:

Well, the moon does take just under 30 earth days to rotate once so it does move that way slower than the earth and hence has fewer " days" than the earth. Sort of.

How is the moon greater than the Earth as the beginning of verse 5 says?

Thanks,
Jim

[The Nehor]

On 10/24/2018 at 11:07 PM, Gray said:

His name during his mortal life was Wally West.

His Spirit World name is Godot.

[Tacenda]

Joseph was making it a little easier to think of his beloved brother Alvin who had passed on, and how he won't have to wait so long before reunited? I think Joseph did his very best for the living, to understand the great beyond and make being Christian a little better, vs. the scary non LDS Christian's thoughts. Okay, that sounded funny. But honestly, have come to believe that Joseph thought he was getting inspiration while at the same time trying to pull his family out of the rut they were in. Maybe my comments belong elsewhere? 

Plains, I really like how you bring up these questions! 

[JLHPROF]

On 10/24/2018 at 9:38 PM, Gray said:

If Kolob maintains a constant speed of 99.9999499999999% of the speed of light, God will a experience 1 year passage of time while we experience 1000 years, due to time dilation effects. Nudge up the speed a bit more and you'll get 1 day per 1000 years.

 

Is that accurate math?  If so I find that absolutely fascinating.

[Gray]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Is that accurate math?  If so I find that absolutely fascinating.

According to an online time dilation calculator I found, yes. I didn't feel like figuring out the precise speed to get 1 day/1000 years. As you approach light speed. a very minor change in speed has a big effect on time dilation.

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

According to an online time dilation calculator I found, yes. I didn't feel like figuring out the precise speed to get 1 day/1000 years. As you approach light speed. a very minor change in speed has a big effect on time dilation.

The idea that God's time equates that closely to the speed that light travels is intriguing.

[Garden Girl]

I've always read the following scriptures in conjunction with those on "time." ... 

Isaiah 55:7 - 9  "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts... For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord... For as the heavens are higher than  the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

GG

[SeekerB]

On 10/24/2018 at 9:38 PM, Gray said:

If Kolob maintains a constant speed of 99.9999499999999% of the speed of light, God will a experience 1 year passage of time while we experience 1000 years, due to time dilation effects. Nudge up the speed a bit more and you'll get 1 day per 1000 years.

 

To me, it is simpler to think that we are in a region of space where time is slowed down to 1 1/000 of the time that exists where God dwells.  That allows all of us to have a long mortal probation, yet be gone only a short time.

[clarkgoble]

4 hours ago, SeekerB said:

To me, it is simpler to think that we are in a region of space where time is slowed down to 1 1/000 of the time that exists where God dwells.  That allows all of us to have a long mortal probation, yet be gone only a short time.

The simpler yet is just to assume they're referring to something that appears like a 1000 year orbit from earth or possibly bigger. The north star(s) for instance have a 26,000 year precession which is why the north star in ancient days was different from today.

I've no idea what Abr 3 is referring to, although the reference is 2 Peter 3 clearly. While the figure comes up in later texts I think it's unclear where 2 Peter gets it from other than just a long cycle compared to a day. Although it was common to take days in Genesis 1 as 1000 years. I'm not sure we know when that starts. 

[mbh26]

I don't think the laws of physics are the same in our mortal dimension as the spirt world or even God's resurrected world.  Such laws we now experience are,

1.  Nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.  

2.  An object cannot be in two places at the same time.  

 

[clarkgoble]

5 hours ago, mbh26 said:

I don't think the laws of physics are the same in our mortal dimension as the spirt world or even God's resurrected world.  Such laws we now experience are,

1.  Nothing can travel faster than the speed of light.  

2.  An object cannot be in two places at the same time.  

Why assume it's an other dimension or someplace "else." If it's not then the idea that the laws are different in the spirit world makes no sense. Now it could of course simply be a type of matter we're not familiar with.

Or, if one buys into inflationary models in physics, he may live in a different brane or bubble universe where the second order laws are different due to different types of symmetry breaking.

To explain many apparent laws meaning the types of matter and how they interact are due to how matter "froze" out in the very, very early universe. If we were to rewind the clock back then we might have a very different sort of universe - one where life might not even be possible. The analogy to freezing is because when you freeze water to get different sorts of structures. Those structures define symmetries. (Think of the patterns in the ice) The same sort of thing goes on with matter with the forming of basic particles. The fundamental laws (relativity and quantum mechanics) are the same but the structures of matter are different.

[mbh26]

On ‎10‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 6:52 PM, clarkgoble said:

Why assume it's an other dimension or someplace "else." If it's not then the idea that the laws are different in the spirit world makes no sense. Now it could of course simply be a type of matter we're not familiar with.

Or, if one buys into inflationary models in physics, he may live in a different brane or bubble universe where the second order laws are different due to different types of symmetry breaking.

To explain many apparent laws meaning the types of matter and how they interact are due to how matter "froze" out in the very, very early universe. If we were to rewind the clock back then we might have a very different sort of universe - one where life might not even be possible. The analogy to freezing is because when you freeze water to get different sorts of structures. Those structures define symmetries. (Think of the patterns in the ice) The same sort of thing goes on with matter with the forming of basic particles. The fundamental laws (relativity and quantum mechanics) are the same but the structures of matter are different.

I suppose Clark.  This is above my pay grade.  I think of star trek movies where they're skyping from one galaxy to another.  This is impossible because these people are in fact many light years apart.  As my physics professor at BYU opined, "I can't believe God is limited to travel at the speed of something that can be measured in the fourth floor of the Eyering center on campus."  

Reading near death experiences and trying to get an idea what the spirit world is like, it seems like spirits and God are not limited to being in one place at one time.  I get the impression that time doesn't exist but is rather something God invented for our mortal lives.  Eben Alexandr's experience talks about dark matter and things we don't really see as mortals.  I could see more complex law explaining the laws of physics for both realms similar to how Einstein's equations simplify to Newton's laws when you're talking about macroparticles at low speeds.  

[The Refiner's Fire]

I would like to give my somewhat speculative thougt on the matter, trying to see the teaching on the celestial bodies Abraham received from the Lord in context and seeing what they might entail symbolicly beyond the description of actual stars.

I will try to do it with the description to Facsimile 2 in the book of Abraham:

Quote

Fig. 1. Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God. First in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. The measurement according to celestial time, which celestial time signifies one day to a cubit. One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth, which is called by the Egyptians Jah-oh-eh.
Fig. 2. Stands next to Kolob, called by the Egyptians Oliblish, which is the next grand governing creation near to the celestial or the place where God resides; holding the key of power also, pertaining to other planets; as revealed from God to Abraham, as he offered sacrifice upon an altar, which he had built unto the Lord.
Fig. 3. Is made to represent God, sitting upon his throne, clothed with power and authority; with a crown of eternal light upon his head; representing also the grand Key-words of the Holy Priesthood, as revealed to Adam in the Garden of Eden, as also to Seth, Noah, Melchizedek, Abraham, and all to whom the Priesthood was revealed.
Fig. 4. Answers to the Hebrew word Raukeeyang, signifying expanse, or the firmament of the heavens; also a numerical figure, in Egyptian signifying one thousand; answering to the measuring of the time of Oliblish, which is equal with Kolob in its revolution and in its measuring of time.
Fig. 5. Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob.
Fig. 6. Represents this earth in its four quarters.
Fig. 7. Represents God sitting upon his throne, revealing through the heavens the grand Key-words of the Priesthood; as, also, the sign of the Holy Ghost unto Abraham, in the form of a dove.
Fig. 8. Contains writings that cannot be revealed unto the world; but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God.
Fig. 9. Ought not to be revealed at the present time.
Fig. 10. Also.
Fig. 11. Also. If the world can find out these numbers, so let it be. Amen.

Figures 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, and 21 will be given in the own due time of the Lord.
The above translation is given as far as we have any right to give at the present time.

So centrally we have Kolob (the first creation) which is nearest to the throne of God, together with Oliblish. Both are equally near to the Celestial and both have the time of the Celestial.

Next in the hierarchy is Kae-e-vanrash which is described as the „governing key“ through which gives its light to Enish-Go-On-Dosh (which at least to the Egyptians is the sun).

In Grammar and Alphabet of the Egyptian Language, part of his notes during the translation process of the book of Abraham, Joseph Smith writes:

Quote

Oliblish, Enish-go-on-dosh, and Kaii-ven-rash, are the three grand central powers that govern all the other creations, which have been sought out by the most aged of all the fathers, since the beginning of the creation, by means of the Urim and Thummim: The names of the other twelve of the fixed stars are: Kolob, Limdi, Zip, Vusel, Venisti, Waine, Wayoh-ox-oan, oansli, Shible, Shineflis, flis, os. The Egyptian names of the fifteen moving planets are: Oanisis, Flosisis, floese, Abbesels, Eleash, Subble, Slundlo, Carroam, Crashmakraw, obblesisim, Izinsbah, missel.

Quote

Kli flosisis signifies Kolob in its motion, which is swifter than the rest of the twelve fixed stars; going before, being first in motion, being delegated to have power over others to regulate others in their time

Quote

Jah-oh-eh The earth under the governing <powers> of oliblish, Enish go on dosh, and Kae-e van rash, which are the grand governing key or in other words, the governing power, which governs the fifteen fixed stars <(twelve [2 words illegible])> that belong governs the earth, sun, & moon, (which have their power <in> one,) with the other twelve moving planets of this system. Oliblish=Enish go on dosh, and Kaii , en rash, are the three grand central stars which powers that govern all the other creations, which have been sought out by the most aged of all the fathers, since the begining of the creation, by means of the urim and Thummim: The names of the other twelve of the fixed stars are: Kolob, Limdi, Ziss, Vurel, Venisti, Waine, Wagah=ox=oan, oansli, Keble Shineflis, flis, ots. The Egyptian names, of the fifteen moving planets are: Oan isis, Flos-isis, flo’ese: Abbesele, Ele ash, Sabble, Slundlo, ear roam, Crash ma kraw, obbles isim, Izinsbah. missel

So Jah-oh-eh is goverend by Ki-flosises which we learn is Kolob in motion or the motion of Kolob. Also by Hah-ko-kau-beam and Ka-i-vanrash/Enish-go-on-dosh.

Additionally, we have twelve fixed stars of which Kolob is one of, as well as 15 moving planets.

I cannot make sense of everything, but all in all it seems to me that it is an analogy Abraham got for the Egyptians to explain the Gospel through the stars. I say that because we get a very close comparison later with Jesus being the nearest to the throne of God.

If we say Kolob=Jesus, Oliblish=Holy Ghost, Answer to Raukeeyang=Influence of the Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit, Ka-i-vanrash=Melchezedik Priesthood, Enish-go-on-dosh=Aaronic Priesthood, Ki-flosises=Jesus' Atonement. The 15 moving planets could be the 12 Apostles and the Presidency. Then I still do not know what about the other fixed stars and what about Hah-ko-kau-beam. Plus there is more to be revealed.

But for me it makes sense, even if not in the way like I wrote it but generally that is an analogy of the Gospel, given the context of Abraham 3 and how the Egyptians were very focused on stars. Plus Abraham only had the Aaronic Priesthood when he was in Egypt in the beginning and I believe he was already like a God to them. So „The Sun“ (not the actual sun, but the sun the Egyptians worshipped, Enish-Go-On-Dosh) could be the Aaronic priesthood and it receives its light through the grand governing key, the Melchezidek Priesthood, Ka-i-vanrash. Jesus and the Holy Ghost are equally near to God thus being Kolob and Oliblish. The Holy Ghost has the influence of the Holy Spirit, answering. With the Apostles/presidency and the fixed stars and plantes I am very unsure as with the rest of the stars.

 

Like I said, just a little speculation, but perhaps someone has some insights 🌞

[Kevin Christensen]

This bit in one of Nibley's essays on the Facsimiles, which in turn sent me off to read de Santilana's Hamlet's Mill.

Quote

 In the Book of Abraham these ideas are best expressed by the word Kolob, the cosmic governing power to which Figs. 1 and 2 are most closely related, Prof. L. C. Zucker suggested that Joseph Smith's "Kolob...may be a variant of Kokob," (Zucker), he being apparently unaware of the Arabic word qalb, "Heart" which does not have an equivalent root in Hebrew. To follow Lane's Dictionary:

    qlb, v. to alter, change, invert, turn upside down, turn over and over go flip-flop.

    n. "Heart", hence intellect or intelligence.

    adj. genuine or pure in respect of origin or lineage, 'holding a middle place among his people.'

    "A certain bright star (Alpha Scorpio) in the 18th mansion of the Moon...

    "There are also 3 similar appellations of other stars, esp. Regulus, called qalb al-asad, the heart of the Lion.

    An ancient saying among the Arabs: izza tala' al-Qalb .ja-a 'shita ka-l-Ka1b "When the Heart-star rises winter comes like the Dog-star" - A pun on the words qalb, heart, and Kalb, Dog. Arabic KLB is pronounced like Qalb and also denotes "the Constellation of Canis Maj. and its principal star Sirius," Also Canis Minor and its principal star Procyon. Also the star in the head of Hercules.

It is quite clear that the idea of a dominant super star was common, also that in time there arose inevitable disagreement among the experts as to which star it might be. Amid all the KLB names the overwhelming preference goes to the big boys: Antares is Qlb and Sirius for Klb, of course, for everyone knows that Sirius is the Dog-star, and Klb in all Semitic languages is the word for dog. For the Egyptians the Heart-star par excellence was Canopus, the next brightest star to Sirius, which they designated by drawing a heart as the bob on a cosmic plumb-line. G. E. de Santillana has followed this up:

    "...the determinative sign for 'heart' often figures as the plumb line coming from a well-known astronomical surveying device. the merkhet [Lit. the "informer,"] that which causes to know!. Evidently 'heart' is same thing very specific, as it were the 'center of gravity.' And this may lead in quite another direction. The Arabs preserved a name far Canopus--besides calling the star Kalb at-teiman ('heart of the south'):

    Suhail el wetn, 'Canopus Ponderosus, the heavy-weighting Canopus," i.e., "Canopus was the weight at the end of the plumb-line...(p. 73) by means of which this depth [of the universe] was measured." (p.271) Of all the stars it alone was taken for static, exempted from the Precession" (p. 269, N. 16). Hence it is "the primordial star. 'presented under the form of an Egg that contained all the things that were to be born...caIled 'l'etoile immobile'. It is near the Great Cloud which marks the South Pole of the ecliptic, and is NOT to be sought in the North." (p.269).

The Arabic wazn means "scales" rather than heavy, and this suggests the ape who sits atop the centerpost of a balance, and holds the plumb-line making sure that it is upright. This is the figure that also tells time for the Egyptians, measuring the hours of water clocks. All of which suggests the presence at the center of all Hypocephali of the two apes that face each other in a sense of perfect balance. Are they Canopus symbols?

For the Egyptians "the heart is the organ that directs the body...the function of all the senses originates in the heart, which represents the totality of life and the manifestation of life, the essence of every personality" (de Buck). It is Re "whose intelligent heart created all things, who follows one eternal course according to the laws which he has established for all time," G. Nagel, who quotes the passages finds "this mention of 'the intelligent heart' most strange" (Nagel), but it makes good sense! and is found elsewhere in the ancient world, as in the Mahavairochana,' "the Great Sun Buddha," "the Personification of the heart and light of the Universe..." (Jos. Campbell). In the Babylonian Ennilma a Enish the star Nibiru corresponds closely to Kolob (7:126ff). "I was begotten of the members and created in the HEART of the Great God...He made me in his own heart...I am he who is in the Circle" says a C.T. (I, 314ff). "Since the most sacred place of the ancestors 1ies in the middle point of the earth, corres

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Hugh-Nibley/TrFac.html

The important bits are that Canopus (aka Qalb and not at all a stretch for Kolob) was, of all the stars, taken as exempt from the Precession of the Equinoxes (the 26,000 year wobble that Clark mentions, and that Joseph Campbell discusses as encoded in the ages of the Patriarchs in Genesis), and therefore, from the perspective of an observer on earth, everything else rotates around it.  The main point of the Astronomy discourse to help explain the difference between God's intelligence, and our own.   The image of the Precession with the stars rotating around static Kolob is like a large scale metaphor for Lehi's vision of numberless concourses of angels (the angels, of course, being associated with stars, something Margaret Barker discusses in various places).  I did a PowerPoint on this stuff about ten years or so ago, for a Single Adult Fireside.

It's interesting that Canopus is located in the rudder of the Argo, and because of it's stability and brightness is still used for satellites to take their bearings.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA