The conception of Adam's children

[theplains]

I had a few questions on this passage in Moses.

Moses 6:55 says, "And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even
so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to
prize the good."

How were Cain, Abel, and Adam's other children conceived in sin?  How did sin conceive in Abel's heart as
he was growing up?

Thanks,
Jim

[CV75]

5 minutes ago, theplains said:

I had a few questions on this passage in Moses.

Moses 6:55 says, "And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even
so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to
prize the good."

How were Cain, Abel, and Adam's other children conceived in sin?  How did sin conceive in Abel's heart as
he was growing up?

Thanks,
Jim

What does the Bible say about it?

[Robert F. Smith]

Psalm 14:3,
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 

Isaiah 53:6,
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10-23,
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
.....................
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

[cinepro]

1 hour ago, theplains said:

I had a few questions on this passage in Moses.

Moses 6:55 says, "And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even
so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to
prize the good."

How were Cain, Abel, and Adam's other children conceived in sin?  How did sin conceive in Abel's heart as
he was growing up?

Thanks,
Jim

Here ya' go...

 

Quote

Moses 6:55. What Does “Thy Children Are Conceived in Sin” Mean?

Elder Bruce R. McConkie indicated that the phrase “conceived in sin” means “born into a world of sin” (see A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, 101).

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/35852_eng.pdf?lang=eng

 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Psalm 14:3,
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 

Isaiah 53:6,
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Romans 3:10-23,
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

17 And the way of peace have they not known:

18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.

19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
.....................
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

These are great descriptors of our fallen condition, the symptoms of having been conceived in sin and then having sin conceived in our hearts, but do not explain how we are conceived in sin, and how sin conceives in our hearts.

Adam and Eve were not conceived in sin, so this description applies only to their posterity. Being conceived in sin refers to being born into a temporal estate of spirit and element where willful disobedience unto sin is possible. Eden was not such an estate; only transgression was possible.

In any case, all fall short of the glory of God because of sin (Adam and Eve fell short of the glory of God for other reasons—it was a different world), but James explains how sin is conceived in our hearts. A lack of wisdom leads to vulnerability such as double-mindedness (e.g. lust and charity in the same mind). Children developmentally lack wisdom, and as they grow up this lack of wisdom allows a place for both lust and charity, resulting in double-mindedness. Once they are old enough to choose to act on lust or charity, they pull away from or draw toward God. This is a similar pattern that was followed in Eden (or the Eden story, depending on your persuasion!), but Adam and Eve in their lack of wisdom were not acting on lust or charity but on merely pleasant (innocent) inclinations, which are all they knew (2 Nephi 2:23). Their quest for wisdom was not a bad thing.

45 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Here ya' go...

 

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

......................................

Adam and Eve were not conceived in sin, so this description applies only to their posterity. Being conceived in sin refers to being born into a temporal estate of spirit and element where willful disobedience unto sin is possible. Eden was not such an estate; only transgression was possible..........................

By George, I think you've got it!!

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

I had a few questions on this passage in Moses.

Moses 6:55 says, "And the Lord spake unto Adam, saying: Inasmuch as thy children are conceived in sin, even
so when they begin to grow up, sin conceiveth in their hearts, and they taste the bitter, that they may know to
prize the good."

How were Cain, Abel, and Adam's other children conceived in sin?  How did sin conceive in Abel's heart as
he was growing up?

Thanks,
Jim

Kind of like some people are conceived in Utah.

The usual way.

[theplains]

On 7/14/2018 at 5:01 PM, CV75 said:

Their quest for wisdom was not a bad thing.

I would say both Adam and Eve were created with some level of intelligence and ability to understand and perform
the instructions given to them by God, otherwise what He said could be construed as confusing to them. 

I know from LDS theology that one inability they possessed was that they could not procreate. Does this mean they
were unable to have sexual relations before the Fall solely for pleasure?

Would Adam and Eve have forever remained without wisdom if they had remained obedient to God?

Jim

[CV75]

46 minutes ago, theplains said:

I would say both Adam and Eve were created with some level of intelligence and ability to understand and perform
the instructions given to them by God, otherwise what He said could be construed as confusing to them. 

I know from LDS theology that one inability they possessed was that they could not procreate. Does this mean they
were unable to have sexual relations before the Fall solely for pleasure?

Would Adam and Eve have forever remained without wisdom if they had remained obedient to God?

Jim

Adam and Eve were not given moral choices in Eden (if one want to quibble that indeed they were given moral agency in anticipation of their eventual endowment of wisdom, it was functionally just plain old agency at that pre-Fall period).

Multiplying and replenishing the earth and having dominion over it have moral ramifications in our world, but did not in theirs. Morality is a function of defining and knowing good from evil. Adam and Eve did not possess this gift. Intelligence and ability to understand and perform instructions are not the same as wisdom, which in Genesis is represented as knowing good from evil. So Adam and Eve had some level of intelligence, ability and understanding, and understood the instructions, but not in terms of good and evil.

It seems to me that Adam and Eve lived as spouses in every respect, but not as parents.

It seems to me that God could and would have given Adam and Eve wisdom on other terms eventually (for those who believe the way things played out were not within the realm of His comprehension and foreordained redemption—1 Peter 1:20). But for all I know, the way things are recorded in Genesis are the way He planned or anticipated the eventuality it in the first place.

Why do you keep asking the same questions over and over?

[snowflake]

On 7/14/2018 at 2:53 PM, CV75 said:

What does the Bible say about it?

Roman's 5:12

¹² Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned

 

[theplains]

On 7/16/2018 at 1:31 PM, CV75 said:

Morality is a function of defining and knowing good from evil.

It seems to me that Adam and Eve lived as spouses in every respect, but not as parents.

It seems from your answer that you believe they engaged in sexual relations for pleasure then.

Gospel Principles, in chapter 4, says "In our premortal life we had moral agency."   Besides following Satan's
plan, which was supposedly evil and rejected in favour of Christ's plan to save mankind, would you speculate
on what other evil choices spirit children had to choose for or against?

Thanks,
Jim

 

[JAHS]

"For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam" (Moses 3:19)

Like the rest of us Cain and Abel were a "natural man" and that is how sin could be conceived in their hearts. But there is a way out of it as the scripture above continues:

"and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord"

 

[CV75]

11 minutes ago, theplains said:

It seems from your answer that you believe they engaged in sexual relations for pleasure then.

Gospel Principles, in chapter 4, says "In our premortal life we had moral agency."   Besides following Satan's
plan, which was supposedly evil and rejected in favour of Christ's plan to save mankind, would you speculate
on what other evil choices spirit children had to choose for or against?

Thanks,
Jim

 

I would say that sexual relations as spouses allows for many kinds of pleasure, and not just sexual, even in a place and condition like Eden.

Given what I've said about agency and moral agency as they are manifest in the various conditions, spheres, and estates God's children inhabit along the plan of salvation (how they are sometimes the same, or differ, or change from one into the other), I hope you understand the nuance of my speculation that we made no other moral choice, as spirit children in the presence of God and with what was said in council (see Abraham 3), than whom to follow.

You aren't answering my questions, so I'll stop answering yours until you do.