Royalty in the loins of Ham

[theplains]

I had some questions on these verses.

Abraham 1:11 - "Now, this priest had offered upon this altar three virgins at one time, who 
were the daughters of Onitah, one of the royal descent directly from the loins of Ham."

What does it mean that royalty existed in the loins of Ham but not in the sons of Noah's
other sons?

Abraham 1:20,23-24 - "And the Lord broke down the altar of Elkenah, and of the gods of the land, 
and utterly destroyed them, and smote the priest that he died; and there was great mourning 
in Chaldea, and also in the court of Pharaoh; which Pharaoh signifies king by royal blood
... The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the 
daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is 
forbidden; When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons 
in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land."
  
How does Pharaoh signify king by royal blood when Egypt signifies that which is forbidden?  How 
was the curse preserved in Ham when 1:11 says royalty came from the loins of Ham?

Thanks,
Jim

[JLHPROF]

Just now, theplains said:

I had some questions on these verses.

Abraham 1:11 - "Now, this priest had offered upon this altar three virgins at one time, who 
were the daughters of Onitah, one of the royal descent directly from the loins of Ham."

What does it mean that royalty existed in the loins of Ham but not in the sons of Noah's
other sons?

Abraham 1:20,23-24 - "And the Lord broke down the altar of Elkenah, and of the gods of the land, 
and utterly destroyed them, and smote the priest that he died; and there was great mourning 
in Chaldea, and also in the court of Pharaoh; which Pharaoh signifies king by royal blood
... The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the 
daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is 
forbidden; When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons 
in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land."
  
How does Pharaoh signify king by royal blood when Egypt signifies that which is forbidden?  How 
was the curse preserved in Ham when 1:11 says royalty came from the loins of Ham?

Thanks,
Jim

Because the descendants of Ham had two bloodlines, just like the rest of us.  One royal, one cursed.

[nuclearfuels]

6 minutes ago, theplains said:

I had some questions on these verses.

Abraham 1:11 - "Now, this priest had offered upon this altar three virgins at one time, who 
were the daughters of Onitah, one of the royal descent directly from the loins of Ham."

What does it mean that royalty existed in the loins of Ham but not in the sons of Noah's
other sons?

Abraham 1:20,23-24 - "And the Lord broke down the altar of Elkenah, and of the gods of the land, 
and utterly destroyed them, and smote the priest that he died; and there was great mourning 
in Chaldea, and also in the court of Pharaoh; which Pharaoh signifies king by royal blood
... The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the 
daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is 
forbidden; When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons 
in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land."
  
How does Pharaoh signify king by royal blood when Egypt signifies that which is forbidden?  How 
was the curse preserved in Ham when 1:11 says royalty came from the loins of Ham?

Thanks,
Jim

JLHPROF is correct.

Noah and his seed were authentic royalty through the presithood and foreordination.

Kings of Egypt claimed royalty through their other bloodline, which was an attempt to subvert the truths Noah taught

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, theplains said:

I had some questions on these verses.

Abraham 1:11 - "Now, this priest had offered upon this altar three virgins at one time, who 
were the daughters of Onitah, one of the royal descent directly from the loins of Ham."

What does it mean that royalty existed in the loins of Ham but not in the sons of Noah's
other sons?

Abraham 1:20,23-24 - "And the Lord broke down the altar of Elkenah, and of the gods of the land, 
and utterly destroyed them, and smote the priest that he died; and there was great mourning 
in Chaldea, and also in the court of Pharaoh; which Pharaoh signifies king by royal blood
... The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the 
daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is 
forbidden; When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons 
in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land."
  
How does Pharaoh signify king by royal blood when Egypt signifies that which is forbidden?  How 
was the curse preserved in Ham when 1:11 says royalty came from the loins of Ham?

Thanks,
Jim

You can't have forbidden royal blood?

All royals are automatically good guys?

 

[Calm]

Quote

What does it mean that royalty existed in the loins of Ham but not in the sons of Noah's
other sons?

Where does it say the other sons' lines didn't have royalty?

[Benjamin Seeker]

10 hours ago, theplains said:

I had some questions on these verses.

Abraham 1:11 - "Now, this priest had offered upon this altar three virgins at one time, who 
were the daughters of Onitah, one of the royal descent directly from the loins of Ham."

What does it mean that royalty existed in the loins of Ham but not in the sons of Noah's
other sons?

Abraham 1:20,23-24 - "And the Lord broke down the altar of Elkenah, and of the gods of the land, 
and utterly destroyed them, and smote the priest that he died; and there was great mourning 
in Chaldea, and also in the court of Pharaoh; which Pharaoh signifies king by royal blood
... The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the 
daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is 
forbidden; When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons 
in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land."
  
How does Pharaoh signify king by royal blood when Egypt signifies that which is forbidden?  How 
was the curse preserved in Ham when 1:11 says royalty came from the loins of Ham?

Thanks,
Jim

In JS’ BoA theology, Pharaoh both has a royal lineage through Ham that is cursed from the priesthood. I think this is pretty self explanatory. Apparently, the text doesn’t require priesthood to do the pharaoh job.

Edited September 23, 2018 by Benjamin Seeker

[strappinglad]

I just happen to be reading Nibley's " Abraham in Egypt " He goes into all this Ham stuff in depth. I recommend it to anyone who thinks that there are any neat answers to the Egyptian rituals or stories. Scholars are in agreement about Egyptian things. They all agree they are bemused and unsure about much of them. At least that is what I have deduced so far. Men are portrayed as women. Women are both the mother and the wife of some gods. A god/pharaoh can be white or black ( at the same time) .  Metaphors within metaphors. Such fun !!

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I just happen to be reading Nibley's " Abraham in Egypt " He goes into all this Ham stuff in depth. I recommend it to anyone who thinks that there are any neat answers to the Egyptian rituals or stories. Scholars are in agreement about Egyptian things. They all agree they are bemused and unsure about much of them. At least that is what I have deduced so far. Men are portrayed as women. Women are both the mother and the wife of some gods. A god/pharaoh can be white or black ( at the same time) .  Metaphors within metaphors. Such fun !!

You mean like Adam being God AND the literal Father of Jesus with the Virgin Mary as his mother?

Who would think of Adam as the Husband of Mary?

Or that white people become black when cursed, and then get white again through being good?

Yeah those crazy Egyptians.....

 

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

Oops

 

Edited September 23, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Robert F. Smith]

14 hours ago, theplains said:

.......................

Abraham 1:11 - "Now, this priest had offered upon this altar three virgins at one time, who 
were the daughters of Onitah, one of the royal descent directly from the loins of Ham."

What does it mean that royalty existed in the loins of Ham but not in the sons of Noah's
other sons?

The text does not say that royalty cannot exist elsewhere among other peoples.  It is specifying only that three daughters of Onitah were royal princesses, and thus very valuable burnt sacrifices.  How and why they were Hamitic is not explained, only the bare fact of their royal status.  We know of royal sacrifices from biblical and secular history also:  On the Moabite Mesha Stele the king tells of his blood sacrifice of his eldest son to his god Chemish/Chemosh (2 Ki 1:1, 3:27, ).  The effort of such royal sacrifices is to gain the approval of the god and to prevent problems (2 Chron 33:6, Amos 2:1, Micah 6:6-8, Ps 106:37-39).  Jesus is another instance of a royal sacrifice which turns away the anger of God.

14 hours ago, theplains said:

Abraham 1:20,23-24 - "And the Lord broke down the altar of Elkenah, and of the gods of the land, 
and utterly destroyed them, and smote the priest that he died; and there was great mourning 
in Chaldea, and also in the court of Pharaoh; which Pharaoh signifies king by royal blood
... The land of Egypt being first discovered by a woman, who was the daughter of Ham, and the 
daughter of Egyptus, which in the Chaldean signifies Egypt, which signifies that which is 
forbidden; When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons 
in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land."
  
How does Pharaoh signify king by royal blood when Egypt signifies that which is forbidden?  How 
was the curse preserved in Ham when 1:11 says royalty came from the loins of Ham?........................

Royalty is dynastic and the word "pharaoh" means "dynasty, great-house."  Kingship is established by lineal descent, and has nothing to do with priesthood.  The king of Egypt is considered to be the authentic king.  The curse against him holding the priesthood stems from an obscure incident in which God was offended by his predecessor Ham (Gen 9:18-27, Lev 18:6-7).

The figurative meaning of "Egypt" as "forbidden" can be found in Lev 18:3, Deut 7:25-26, Isa 19:18, Ezek 20:7.  In addition, Ham = Egypt (Gen 10:6 Mizraim = Egypt, Ps 78:51).   For their part, the Egyptians called their land “the good, holy, and glorious land” (nfrt, wʿbt, špśt); so the Israelites used the Egyptian word for “holy” wʿbt, to mean “taboo, forbidden, abomination” (Hebrew twʿbh; Albright, From the Stone Age to Christianity, 321; confirmed personally to me by Antonio Loprieno).  It was with this in mind that Philo and the rabbis used the term “Egypt” as a code word of opprobrium for Christians or heathens in general (Philo, trans. F. Colson, Loeb Classical Library (1967), “Index,” X:303-305; Conf. 36; De Abrahamo, §98; F. Rosenthal, JNES, 18:82-83.).

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, strappinglad said:

I just happen to be reading Nibley's " Abraham in Egypt " He goes into all this Ham stuff in depth. I recommend it to anyone who thinks that there are any neat answers to the Egyptian rituals or stories. Scholars are in agreement about Egyptian things. They all agree they are bemused and unsure about much of them. At least that is what I have deduced so far. Men are portrayed as women. Women are both the mother and the wife of some gods. A god/pharaoh can be white or black ( at the same time) .  Metaphors within metaphors. Such fun !!

No Egyptologist would share this nihilistic and chaotic view.

[strappinglad]

It is said about lawyers, that if there are 10 of them in a room and they are asked a legal question, they will provide at least 10 opinions , all of them being valid for some aspect and defendable . Is that because the law is chaotic ? No, it is because it is complex.

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The text does not say that royalty cannot exist elsewhere among other peoples.  It is specifying only that three daughters of Onitah were royal princesses, and thus very valuable burnt sacrifices.  How and why they were Hamitic is not explained, only the bare fact of their royal status.  We know of royal sacrifices from biblical and secular history also:  On the Moabite Mesha Stele the king tells of his blood sacrifice of his eldest son to his god Chemish/Chemosh (2 Ki 1:1, 3:27, ).  The effort of such royal sacrifices is to gain the approval of the god and to prevent problems (2 Chron 33:6, Amos 2:1, Micah 6:6-8, Ps 106:37-39).  Jesus is another instance of a royal sacrifice which turns away the anger of God.

Royalty is dynastic and the word "pharaoh" means "dynasty, great-house."  Kingship is established by lineal descent, and has nothing to do with priesthood.  The king of Egypt is considered to be the authentic king.  The curse against him holding the priesthood stems from an obscure incident in which God was offended by his predecessor Ham (Gen 9:18-27, Lev 18:6-7).

The figurative meaning of "Egypt" as "forbidden" can be found in Lev 18:3, Deut 7:25-26, Isa 19:18, Ezek 20:7.  In addition, Ham = Egypt (Gen 10:6 Mizraim = Egypt, Ps 78:51).   For their part, the Egyptians called their land “the good, holy, and glorious land” (nfrt, wʿbt, špśt); so the Israelites used the Egyptian word for “holy” wʿbt, to mean “taboo, forbidden, abomination” (Hebrew twʿbh; Albright, From the Stone Age to Christianity, 321; confirmed personally to me by Antonio Loprieno).  It was with this in mind that Philo and the rabbis used the term “Egypt” as a code word of opprobrium for Christians or heathens in general (Philo, trans. F. Colson, Loeb Classical Library (1967), “Index,” X:303-305; Conf. 36; De Abrahamo, §98; F. Rosenthal, JNES, 18:82-83.).

Thanks Bob.

You are amazing to be able to come up with this stuff on short notice.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Thanks Bob.

You are amazing to be able to come up with this stuff on short notice.

I cribbed it from my Bof Abraham commentary.

[sunstoned]

21 hours ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

In JS’ BoA theology, Pharaoh both has a royal lineage through Ham that is cursed from the priesthood. I think this is pretty self explanatory. Apparently, the text doesn’t require priesthood to do the pharaoh job.

 

There is evidence that Ham was of a royal linage of Egypt through a Pharaoh. Which somehow this linage was transported to the new world (Jaredites or Nephites?).

Quote

I have translated a portion of them, and they contain the history of the person with whom they were found. He was a descendant of Ham, through the loins of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and that he received his kingdom from the Ruler of heaven and earth

                                                                                                                                                                                   Joseph Smith  translation of the Kinderhook Plates.

[Benjamin Seeker]

20 minutes ago, sunstoned said:

 

There is evidence that Ham was of a royal linage of Egypt through a Pharaoh. Which somehow this linage was transported to the new world (Jaredites or Nephites?).

                                                                                                                                                                                   Joseph Smith  translation of the Kinderhook Plates.

Super strange right? But it’s a pretty fun coincidence that one of the fake symbols on the kinder hook plates lined up with that symbol from the GAEL. Must have made JS pretty excited.

[cinepro]

19 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

Super strange right? But it’s a pretty fun coincidence that one of the fake symbols on the kinder hook plates lined up with that symbol from the GAEL. Must have made JS pretty excited.

Since the papyri had been on public display and the facsimiles had possibly been published by then, they might have been familiar with them.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I cribbed it from my Bof Abraham commentary.

Yeah but you wanna know what I know about the Royalty of Ham?

THIS is what I know about the Royalty of Ham!

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

 

There is evidence that Ham was of a royal linage of Egypt through a Pharaoh. 

I think you have it reversed.

[theplains]

On 9/22/2018 at 5:27 PM, Calm said:

Where does it say the other sons' lines didn't have royalty?

Well, it says Ham and doesn't mention the other two sons.

[theplains]

On 9/23/2018 at 5:34 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Royalty is dynastic and the word "pharaoh" means "dynasty, great-house."  Kingship is established by lineal descent, and has nothing to do with priesthood.  The king of Egypt is considered to be the authentic king.  The curse against him holding the priesthood stems from an obscure incident in which God was offended by his predecessor Ham (Gen 9:18-27, Lev 18:6-7).

What specifically was the curse on Ham?  Not having the priesthood or something else?

Jim

[Robert F. Smith]

31 minutes ago, theplains said:

What specifically was the curse on Ham?  Not having the priesthood or something else?.......

The Yahwistic and sacerdotal Book of Abraham deals with the authority and right to exercise priesthood within a legitimate cultus, i.e., legitimate versus illegitimate priesthood lineage (Richard Bushman is admirably clear on this in his Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (2005), 287-289).  There appear to be the sort of traditions and priestly emphases to be expected in a late (post-6th century B.C.) redaction of Abraham’s story by a tradent heavily influenced by the Jewish Priestly (P) tradition.  

Quote

BofA 1:21-22,24,27, "Now this king of Egypt was a descendant from the loins of Ham, and was a partaker of the blood of the Canaanites by birth.  From this descent sprang all the Egyptians, and thus the blood of the Canaanites was preserved in the land. . . .   thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land. . . . Now, Pharaoh being of that lineage by which he could not have the right of Priesthood, notwithstanding the Pharaohs would fain claim it from Noah, through Ham, therefore my father was led away by their idolatry;"

Abraham considered intermarriage with Canaanites as improper (Genesis 24:3-4, Abraham 1:21-22), and Abraham and the Israelites generally traced their early ancestry to Aram (Genesis 31:20, Deuteronomy 26:5 [KJV “Syrian” in error for both]; 1QapGn 17:9, Jubilees 9:5), i.e., to Padan-Aram ∥Aram-Naharaim, i.e., to Harran and Nahor in north Syria, and to the home of Uncle Laban the Aramean (Genesis 24:10, 28:2-7, 31:18,20,24 [KJV “Syrian” twice in error], 46:15, Judges 3:8 [KJV “Mesopotamia” in error]).  Abraham 1:23 properly forbids the abominations of Egypt (Egypt and Canaan in Leviticus 18:3, Deuteronomy 7:25-26, Isaiah 19:18, Ezekiel 20:7).

Biblically,  Hām is used in direct collocation with the eponym Mizrayim “Egypt; Two-Borders (literally)” (Genesis 10:6), and both are part of a synonymous parallel pair meaning “Egypt” (“land of Ham” ∥”Egypt,” Psalms 78:51, 105:23,27, 106:21-22), which is a parallel pair faithfully employed by the Book of Abraham (1:21-25).  Thus is “Hamitic” used by modern scholars to refer to Egypt and to the Egyptian linguistic super-phylum ( F. M. Cross, Canaanite Myth and Hebrew Epic, 249; Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar, 3rd ed., 2; cf. E. Lefébure, “Le Cham et l’Adam Égyptiens,” TSBA, IX (1893):167-181.).  

Gerhard Von Rad argued that, in Genesis 10,    

Quote

the table of nations connects Canaan with Ham . . . .  For Canaan, peopled predominantly by Semites, was still nominally under Egyptian control, when it was settled by Israel.  And even the Hittites are reckoned as Canaanites.  Von Rad, Genesis, 142; cf. 140.