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Benjamin Seeker

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Everything posted by Benjamin Seeker

  1. Your approach is an oversimplification and an untrue negative stereotype. I understand the defensive position it comes from, but it’s so unsympathetic and tone-deaf it’s mind-numbing.
  2. In many cases its more like an invested-so-much-into-it-and-still-connected-to-many-others-in-the-church-and-feel-like-they-can-now-more-freely-express-themselves attitude.
  3. I agree that it’s hard to subscribe to the literal interpretation of Mormonism after your personal views have transformed, and I don’t subscribe to literalism. I was just offering an example that I thought did a good job of illustrating the literalist’s need for literalism as I was just telling our forum philosopher.
  4. I believe fearless is questioning how Churchistrue’s apologetics could fit into Mormonism. If you remember, Churchistrue started this conversation offering non-literal approaches as a kind of apologetics, and so our discussion has ensued...
  5. I understand. I was trying to find a simple example that showed the typical literalist’s definite need for literalism (to keep the dialogue going as I said).
  6. I’ll step in to help further the dialogue. I think the point is that even without historical evidence there needs to be literal truth to get the promised literal result. So, if Christ didn’t literally rise from the grave, neither will I.
  7. And I’m not worried about literal salvation, so that’s where we part ways! Jesus is a more meaningful symbolic figure for me than Sam Gamgee because he is how my family and community express faith. His life and teachings are the language of Christian faith that I inherited. I don’t believe literally, but I use the language of Christianity to express my faith, at least partly. Let me correct myself and clarify how I feel. This is what I just wrote in explanation to Calm: When I was saying that people argue against inspired-fiction because it undermines the church’s truth claims, I
  8. I think JS probably believed everything he taught and said he experienced. While I believe spiritual experiences really happen, I don’t think they generally represent concrete reality. I’d be happy to get into that if you’re interested. So I believe JS believed he was visited by Moroni, and I also think JS experienced something real. However, I don’t believe that Moroni was/is a literal person. When I was saying that people argue against inspired-fiction because it undermines the church’s truth claims, I actually agree with them. I think the church’s truth claims are fairly rigid and lite
  9. A symbolic Christ is inspiring in my life. I’ll never be a 100%-in Mormon, but I do derive meaning and spiritual belonging from my membership and participation. All of the arguments against inspired fiction or any kind of non-literalist interpretation because they undermine truth claims are simply not sound. I and others like me are living proof that non-literalist interpretations can work fine within Mormonism. Alright? I’ll go back and hide under my rock now.
  10. I found this quote in a document assembled by scholar Brian Hales and possibly Don Bradley (Don helped with research for Joseph Smith’s Polygamy). The document is here: http://mormonpolygamydocuments.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/MF0081.doc
  11. My mind went to Magic as well, which would be a hilarious but awesome church policy.
  12. That’s a fair point about the revelation’s wording. Good debate!
  13. It’s also worth noting in the connection I’ve explained above, JS thought of consecration as a form of tithing. See his 1832 letter to Phelps: “It is conterary to the will and commandment of God that those who receive not the inherttenc [inheritance] by consecration agree[a]ble to his law which he has given that he may tithe his people to prepare them against the day of vengence and burning should have there names enrolled with the people of God.”
  14. The connection I was remembering to D&C is actually the connection between the collection of surplus properties as defined in 119 (tithing) and 42 (consecration). Both sections demand the collection of surplus properties. 119 says for paying debts and laying the foundation of Zion, and 42 says that the surplus goes to the storehouse for the care of the poor. The JST Gen. 14 was received months after section 42 and uses a similar concept of surplus and collection for the poor. The close date of the revelation and translation is how I had put the two together in my mind. Honestly, I think t
  15. I’m redigging into the issue finding the sources (I may be mistaken on D&C). Here is one of the earliest sources on tithing, JST Genesis 14: 38 Him whom God had appointed to receive tithes for the poor. 39 Wherefore, Abram paid unto him tithes of all that he had, of all the riches which he possessed, which God had given him more than that which he had need.
  16. As I’m sure you well know, many of the church programs and services that we enjoy today we’re started on a local level. A thread of interesting or new ideas about tithing doesn’t have to be seen as ark steadying. It can be seen as a good exercise in inspiration. Have an idea of your own instead of pissing on the parade.
  17. Tithing in the Book of Mormon and Bible and early sections of the D&C is principally focused towards caring for the poor and needy. It was a later development that put building as the focus of tithing. I’m not sure what policy or revelation put fast offerings as the primary driver of helping the needy. Anyhow, doctrinally speaking, it’s very easy to make the case that the original conception of tithing was to take care of the poor, and it was expanded on from there.
  18. I’m thinking of something less insular than fast offerings and more local and hands on than a donation to the humanitarian fund. 👍
  19. I think the Bishop’s store house is great. It is however a bit insular.
  20. As far as the day inspiration piece goes, not to sound like a jerk, but it’s not necessarily inspiration that makes the financial clock tick. For example, JS was a very inspired prophet, yet from what I understand, he sucked at the financial piece. Also, if we can chock the current financial success the church is having today to inspiration, what in the world was happening for the first 150 years?
  21. In light of the recent discussion on tithing and it being the holiday season, I wanted to start a discussion on what reasonable minds would put on their tithing-related Christmas wish-list. Here is what’s on mine: I would like to see more local humanitarian aid. For example, how cool would it be if certain chapels ran a soup kitchen or something like that? Lots of poor non-Mormon and Mormon hungry souls could be helped. I would love to experience more beautiful places to worship. Our chapels are generally uninspiring imho, partly due to economizing. Custodians! ; ) Actuall
  22. It sounds like you won’t feel a loss of trust should the allegations be true. Others, as this thread had already demonstrated, will.
  23. Propping up for profit ventures is one of the allegations. When the church does that with profit made from invested tithing funds, there can be justifiable loss of trust.
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