Red Heifer: Coming of the Messiah?

[Stargazer]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That sounds like a solid and reliable source.

Thanks for writing that.  It impelled to do some more looking.  

This is NOT the article I was thinking of -- but it says much the same thing as the one I remember reading.  It's from Nature, which is, I think, somewhat authoritative and a solid and reliable source.

Carbon emissions 'will defer Ice Age'

This earlier Discover mag article might be the one I was thinking of, but it also might be using the data from Nature.  I'm not sure.

Was Earth Headed for the Mother of All Ice Ages Before Global Warming?

On the other hand, looking further I found an article from 2002 that said we could be heading for a new glaciation period soon precisely because of the global warming.  

 

[PacMan]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You may have noticed the citations from Exodus and Deuteronomy give the Levites "forever" status.   Sacrifice may have been suspended, but not their status as lineal priests forever.  Even the D&C recognizes that, or have you not read that part of the D&C?

Just as an aside, the reason why Roman Catholic priests cannot be excommunicated, but can only be suspended from priestly function (even if they commit rape or murder), is that they are Melchizedek priests "forever."  Even in Hell.

Robert, if you're referring to D&C 84:18, the Aaronic Priesthood "continueth and abideth forever with the priesthood which is after the holiest order of God."  For this reference to be consistent with D&C 13, it doesn't mean that it exists independently forever but will at some point exist as subsumed by the Melchizedek Priesthood.

I did not know about the Catholic position.  For your view to be correct in terms of the Levites, the Catholic view would have to be correct.  Indeed, "forever" is inconsistent with excommunication as you are using the phrase.

In any event, the right to an office does not invalidate the associated keys.  So unless your position is that priesthood keys exist outside the church, I find your position doctrinally problematic:

Joseph F. Smith: “The Priesthood in general is the authority given to man to act for God. . . .  t is necessary that every act performed under this authority shall be done at the proper time and place, in the proper way, and after the proper order.  The power of directing these labors constitutes the keys of the Priesthood.  In their fulness, the keys are held by only one person at a time, the prophet and president of the Church.”  Gospel Doctrine, 136-37.

Even so, thank you for sharing your insight.

Edited September 10, 2018 by PacMan

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, PacMan said:

Robert, if you're referring to D&C 84:18, the Aaronic Priesthood "continueth and abideth forever with the priesthood which is after the holiest order of God."  For this reference to be consistent with D&C 13, it doesn't mean that it exists independently forever but will at some point exist as subsumed by the Melchizedek Priesthood.

The Exodus and Deuteronomy citations I gave are not referring to the Melchizedek priesthood, but only to the lineal priesthood of Aaron.  The matter of lasting forever refers to all the generations of those Levites in this life.  The D&C validates that lineal authority, something most Mormons cannot even imagine.  Those who think that they are in control of the Jews erroneously substitute supercessionism.

4 hours ago, PacMan said:

I did not know about the Catholic position.  For your view to be correct in terms of the Levites, the Catholic view would have to be correct.  Indeed, "forever" is inconsistent with excommunication as you are using the phrase.

The RC view is in error (I do not agree with canon law), and Melchizedek priesthood should be removable under the appropriate circumstances.  I only mentioned it to indicate how strongly the Roman Catholics take the notion of a forever priesthood.  Of course, in this life, only Jesus has that priesthood forever. On the other side, it is another matter entirely.

4 hours ago, PacMan said:

In any event, the right to an office does not invalidate the associated keys.  So unless your position is that priesthood keys exist outside the church, I find your position doctrinally problematic:

Joseph F. Smith: “The Priesthood in general is the authority given to man to act for God. . . .  t is necessary that every act performed under this authority shall be done at the proper time and place, in the proper way, and after the proper order.  The power of directing these labors constitutes the keys of the Priesthood.  In their fulness, the keys are held by only one person at a time, the prophet and president of the Church.”  Gospel Doctrine, 136-37.

....................................

True enough, but only for the Mormons.  There are always other sheep not of this fold, and the Jews do not function under LDS controls, except to the extent that Joseph Smith formally authorized the final gathering of the Jews and the building of their temple -- by them, not the Mormons.  Since the Jews have their own priests (Aaronic and Levitical), they have no need of supervision by some outside group of supercessionists.  Carefully read Romans 11.  The times of the Gentiles is nearly at an end.

[The Nehor]

19 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Thanks for writing that.  It impelled to do some more looking.  

This is NOT the article I was thinking of -- but it says much the same thing as the one I remember reading.  It's from Nature, which is, I think, somewhat authoritative and a solid and reliable source.

Carbon emissions 'will defer Ice Age'

This earlier Discover mag article might be the one I was thinking of, but it also might be using the data from Nature.  I'm not sure.

Was Earth Headed for the Mother of All Ice Ages Before Global Warming?

On the other hand, looking further I found an article from 2002 that said we could be heading for a new glaciation period soon precisely because of the global warming.  

 

The first article says that it is possible that CO2 might have staved off  in an ice age in the next few millennia (not sure I buy that as it is based on timing of the last ice age which is weak evidence) but the ending is perhaps the most poignant. It says even if it did hold off an ice age we currently have enough CO2 to prevent it and we are still warming. In other words, we could stop right now and be fine. Spoiler: We are not going to. So climate change ahead! Enjoy your mega hurricanes. The people in the Carolinas thank us all.

Edited September 11, 2018 by The Nehor

[clarkgoble]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Enjoy your mega hurricanes. The people in the Carolinas thank us all.

If only environmentalists would have compromised and embraced nuclear power in the 80's and 90's when it could have prevented a lot of this...

I do agree we're apt to have more hurricanes because of warming, but I believe the Carolina one is expected to be cat 3 before landfall. Worse than that area usually gets, but not really that unexpected. Of course still quite some time in hurricane season. But it definitely is frustrating that this was a catastrophe we could easily have avoided had all sides been willing to compromise. I also blame Gore who had good intentions but managed to polarize the issue back when many GOP were willing to go on record believing global warming. After that, partially due to the politics of the tied election, it became difficult if not impossible for GOP figures to admit they believed in warming.

Although I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the red heifer. The group doing all that isn't terribly respected by most in the Orthodox tradition and without Orthodox support the temple rites won't be restored in Israel. The Orthodox see that only being done by the Messiah. The Temple Institute follows Maimonides who thought the Jews should do it themselves. (Although this reading of Maimonides is itself contested) We should also note they've found red heifers before. They aren't that uncommon. However on the basis of the code in Leviticus 22 traditionally applied to the heifer they found previous heifers unsuitable after initially saying they did meet requirements. All of this is itself tied up in controversy over the temple mount and the obvious issue of the Dome of the Rock being there. Somewhat understandably many Muslims object to the Temple Institute's preparations.  

Edited September 11, 2018 by clarkgoble

[The Nehor]

52 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

If only environmentalists would have compromised and embraced nuclear power in the 80's and 90's when it could have prevented a lot of this...

I do agree we're apt to have more hurricanes because of warming, but I believe the Carolina one is expected to be cat 3 before landfall. Worse than that area usually gets, but not really that unexpected. Of course still quite some time in hurricane season. But it definitely is frustrating that this was a catastrophe we could easily have avoided had all sides been willing to compromise. I also blame Gore who had good intentions but managed to polarize the issue back when many GOP were willing to go on record believing global warming. After that, partially due to the politics of the tied election, it became difficult if not impossible for GOP figures to admit they believed in warming.

 

If we could get a good nuclear waste disposal site going then yes, we need more nuclear power. There is a lot of fear about them but modern nuclear power points are incredibly safe. We just refuse to build any and while the Moron in Chief is on his quixotic quest to bring back coal as our primary power source I do not believe this will change.

Edit: In case I get a CFR on being a moron he just commented on the incoming hurricane with “It’s tremendously big and tremendously wet. Tremendous amounts of water.” which once again proves my theory that we literally chose a retard to lead us.

Edited September 11, 2018 by The Nehor

[clarkgoble]

18 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

If we could get a good nuclear waste disposal site going then yes, we need more nuclear power.

There's plenty of good sites - particularly in Utah and Nevada. There's just a "not in my back yard" mentality. Although given all the radioactive medical waste we have not to mention existing nuclear power waste we still need a storage facility. Many of the "temporary" sites (often having been "temporary" for decades) are unsafe long term. It's worth noting that what finally killed the Nevada storage facility was Harry Reid following perhaps understandable pressure from his constituents. 

As I recall France until recently had over 90% of its power from nuclear energy. Most of Europe got considerable power. While now wind and solar are becoming effective enough to replace oil, realistically the only real choice in the 80's and 90's was nuclear power. It's no longer cost effective so it's not really a legitimate source anymore. However had liberals compromised with conservatives on the issue we could likely have significantly slowed warming until we could really replace oil for everything.

Edited September 11, 2018 by clarkgoble

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

There's plenty of good sites - particularly in Utah and Nevada. There's just a "not in my back yard" mentality. Although given all the radioactive medical waste we have not to mention existing nuclear power waste we still need a storage facility. Many of the "temporary" sites (often having been "temporary" for decades) are unsafe long term. It's worth noting that what finally killed the Nevada storage facility was Harry Reid following perhaps understandable pressure from his constituents. 

As I recall France until recently had over 90% of its power from nuclear energy. Most of Europe got considerable power. While now wind and solar are becoming effective enough to replace oil, realistically the only real choice in the 80's and 90's was nuclear power. It's no longer cost effective so it's not really a legitimate source anymore. However had liberals compromised with conservatives on the issue we could likely have significantly slowed warming until we could really replace oil for everything.

We had a site mostly built in Utah and then after all the money was spent some Utah politicians who previously agreed to it threw a fit and it got shut down. A stupid boondoggle. If I remember right the Germans avoid nuclear power and then import all their power....from French nuclear plants.

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

The first article says that it is possible that CO2 might have staved off  in an ice age in the next few millennia (not sure I buy that as it is based on timing of the last ice age which is weak evidence) but the ending is perhaps the most poignant. It says even if it did hold off an ice age we currently have enough CO2 to prevent it and we are still warming. In other words, we could stop right now and be fine. Spoiler: We are not going to. So climate change ahead! Enjoy your mega hurricanes. The people in the Carolinas thank us all.

The people in the Carolinas are just as much at "fault" for climate change as anyone else. We affect the environment simply by existing. And the environment has been affecting us for our entire existence. If you think it's possible for humankind to, first of all, understand the full complexity of this planet's climate, and secondly, think it's possible for us to do anything intentionally substantive about it, well, you're entitled to your opinion. But I have the feeling that you're wrong on both counts.

It is what it is. Just understand what's coming, and do what you feel will best prepare yourself for it. You're in control only of your own reactions to what occurs to you. To imagine otherwise is delusion.

[Bernard Gui]

12 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Although I'm not sure what any of that has to do with the red heifer. The group doing all that isn't terribly respected by most in the Orthodox tradition and without Orthodox support the temple rites won't be restored in Israel. The Orthodox see that only being done by the Messiah. The Temple Institute follows Maimonides who thought the Jews should do it themselves. (Although this reading of Maimonides is itself contested) We should also note they've found red heifers before. They aren't that uncommon. However on the basis of the code in Leviticus 22 traditionally applied to the heifer they found previous heifers unsuitable after initially saying they did meet requirements. All of this is itself tied up in controversy over the temple mount and the obvious issue of the Dome of the Rock being there. Somewhat understandably many Muslims object to the Temple Institute's preparations. 

IYO, who speaks authoritatively for Judaism today? 

Most Muslims would not be happy with LDS beliefs about the Jerusalem temple, either.

[theplains]

On 9/9/2018 at 12:48 PM, Stargazer said:

Yep, the bow was a sign of God's covenant not to flood us out again.

As for what I quoted Joseph as saying, this was not an inaccurate retelling of the bow being a sign of the no-flood covenant.  This was a sign of a lack of a bow, meaning no rain anywhere for a year -- which would mean famine and great distress -- and he wasn't misquoting Genesis, he was prophesying of a future event.  I know you don't believe Joseph was a prophet, so there's no point in discussing the matter, is there?  Just look to the future for its fulfillment, and if it never happens, well then...

There is famine and great distress in many parts of Africa right now, and I see bows frequently after it rains. Maybe the
bow has to disappear from all worldwide sightings ...

 

[Stargazer]

On 9/12/2018 at 10:48 PM, theplains said:

There is famine and great distress in many parts of Africa right now, and I see bows frequently after it rains. Maybe the
bow has to disappear from all worldwide sightings ...

 

Famine has been a feature of life, like forever.

You don't believe in miracles?

 

[clarkgoble]

On 9/11/2018 at 2:40 PM, The Nehor said:

We had a site mostly built in Utah and then after all the money was spent some Utah politicians who previously agreed to it threw a fit and it got shut down. A stupid boondoggle. If I remember right the Germans avoid nuclear power and then import all their power....from French nuclear plants.

Nope. Before the Japanese catastrophe the Germans used a lot of nuclear power. Both their own and power bought from other countries. Due to public fears after the disaster in Japan the Germans decided to phase out all nuclear power. That's more doable today due to increases in the effectiveness of alternative power like wind and solar. However it most definitely will raise prices in Germany.

I think at this stage new nuclear power plants make no sense. However back in the 80's and 90's that simply wasn't the case. A huge switch to nuclear, particularly in the United States, would have greatly affected carbon levels in the atmosphere.

[clarkgoble]

On 9/12/2018 at 2:35 AM, Bernard Gui said:

IYO, who speaks authoritatively for Judaism today? 

Judaism isn't centralized. You typically have pretty diverse movements, each with their own conception of authoritative leaders. Often these are tied to geographic regions. So there was a recent controversy because orthodox Rabbis in Israel had made some decisions that conflicted with American ones. And of course orthodox Rabbis frequently dismiss the positions of conservative or reform Judaism Rabbis. Islam is similar in that way. So authority is soft rather than formal typically and one gains authority because of respect. Although both traditions also have councils that can have more formal authority for some groups and getting on the council gives one soft power.

It's actually very analogous to what happens within say Evangelicalism.

Edited September 14, 2018 by clarkgoble

[The Nehor]

15 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Nope. Before the Japanese catastrophe the Germans used a lot of nuclear power. Both their own and power bought from other countries. Due to public fears after the disaster in Japan the Germans decided to phase out all nuclear power. That's more doable today due to increases in the effectiveness of alternative power like wind and solar. However it most definitely will raise prices in Germany.

I think at this stage new nuclear power plants make no sense. However back in the 80's and 90's that simply wasn't the case. A huge switch to nuclear, particularly in the United States, would have greatly affected carbon levels in the atmosphere.

Yeah, I knew they built quite a few but they are unwilling to build them now. They import a lot of their power instead....from nuclear plants. The reason the US was not building was for similar reasons.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

Judaism isn't centralized. You typically have pretty diverse movements, each with their own conception of authoritative leaders. Often these are tied to geographic regions. So there was a recent controversy because orthodox Rabbis in Israel had made some decisions that conflicted with American ones. And of course orthodox Rabbis frequently dismiss the positions of conservative or reform Judaism Rabbis. Islam is similar in that way. So authority is soft rather than formal typically and one gains authority because of respect. Although both traditions also have councils that can have more formal authority for some groups and getting on the council gives one soft power.

It's actually very analogous to what happens within say Evangelicalism.

Indeed. I was asking because of a comment about the legitimacy of the Temple Institute.

[clarkgoble]

14 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Indeed. I was asking because of a comment about the legitimacy of the Temple Institute.

Basically the Orthodox don't accept the Temple Institute and the Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox have a lot of power in Israel - particularly in Jerusalem. Nothing will get done with respect to the Temple if the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox oppose it.

Edited September 14, 2018 by clarkgoble

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

Basically the Orthodox don't accept the Temple Institute and the Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox have a lot of power in Israel - particularly in Jerusalem. Nothing will get done with respect to the Temple if the Orthodox and Ultra-Orthodox oppose it.

That’s pretty much how I see it. There will have to be some earth-shaking events before all these things gets sorted out. Do you see the Church having any significant role in this?

[Alaris]

On 9/9/2018 at 11:41 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Biblical law requires that a red heifer be killed and burned, then the ashes spread on the ritually unclean Temple Mount, before a Jew can enter the Mount.  Once that has been done, construction of the new temple can begin.  It is God's commandment.  His Law.

Hey Robert, 

Do you mind sharing the source here? Thank you. 

[Exiled]

The 2nd coming is forever in the future. So, the red heifer is merely a coincidence.

[Calm]

57 minutes ago, Alaris said:

Hey Robert, 

Do you mind sharing the source here? Thank you. 

Numbers 19:1-10

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Alaris said:

Hey Robert, 

Do you mind sharing the source here? Thank you. 

The OP cites https://www.templeinstitute.org/events.htm , which is a good place to begin the discussion (Numbers 19:1-10).  See also the Wikipedia article on it at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_heifer .

[MiserereNobis]

On 9/10/2018 at 5:53 PM, PacMan said:

I did not know about the Catholic position.  For your view to be correct in terms of the Levites, the Catholic view would have to be correct.  Indeed, "forever" is inconsistent with excommunication as you are using the phrase.

Catholic ordination is indelible (like baptism), meaning it cannot be taken away. A priest can be laicized (defrocked), which means he is not allowed to act as a priest, wear vestments, be called father, etc, but that doesn't remove the fact that he is a priest. A laicized priest can also be reinstated.

A laicized priest is still under the obligation of celibacy, unless he has also been released from that by the Pope. Almost all laicized priests are also released from celibacy.

[CMZ]

On 9/8/2018 at 2:30 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

They already hold the priesthood of Aaron and of the lesser Levites by right of lineage.  They will build their temple and offer sacrifices there without consulting LDS authorities.  What takes place after that is another matter.

Does this mean they are born with the priesthood or that they have the right to receive the priesthood?

[CMZ]

Where does the idea originally come from that a red heifer is an indicator that the Second Coming is near?