jkwilliams Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 Just now, poptart said: The Inuit have issues, it's sad. That's great that you are doing this. Kudos to you.
ksfisher Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 32 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: Exactly, but how many people know this policy. I feel like bringing a little attention to it would be a good thing. I'm very aware of bishops who know the policy but choose not to share or enforce it. While I was on the HC a bishop in a ward where I was assigned encouraged conceal carry. When I brought it up to the SP he didn't seem terribly concerned and nothing changed in that ward. They all had good intentions but didn't see the practical necessity of informing or upholding that policy. After an event like the shooting on Sunday, it seems a restatement would be useful. In the past I would say that the "no guns in church" policy was one of those things that went without saying. With things in the world as weird as they're getting I'm not so sure anymore. I've only been aware of two people carrying a gun a church. One was a police officer. The other pretty much stopped coming after we became aware of it. 1
poptart Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: That's great that you are doing this. Kudos to you. Mom and I look nothing alike, it was her family that was always the kindest. After having to grow up with in a violent abusive household with someone who had a fradulent church, who lied to his own family here and tried to blackball me with everyone he knew, well, i'm soured to life in the lower 48s. I always liked Western Canada and Alaska more, it's different and not nearly as crowded. The Tlingit culture is amazing, Always wanted to go to one of their potlatches. Mom fits right in looks wise, funny thing is they reminded her of the Ainu in northern Japan.
Jeanne Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 Have a question....churches and temples are dedicated in the LDS faith. Where is the protection?
jkwilliams Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 Just now, Jeanne said: Have a question....churches and temples are dedicated in the LDS faith. Where is the protection? Bad things happen all the time in church buildings. I'm not sure dedication is intended to be a protection that outweighs people's agency. 2
Jeanne Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Bad things happen all the time in church buildings. I'm not sure dedication is intended to be a protection that outweighs people's agency. Thank you. I have probably not completely understood the reasons for dedications. But thank you...Yes, bad things happen...not to blame anyone or anything...but trying to understand all the whys and whyfores...hard. My biggest concern is for the children who were there and the trauma that will be with them. Edited July 23, 2018 by Jeanne
jkwilliams Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Thank you. I have probably not completely understood the reasons for dedications. But thank you...Yes, bad things happen...not to blame anyone or anything...but trying to understand all the whys and whyfores...hard. My biggest concern is for the children who were there and the trauma that will be with them. No kidding. I can't imagine how traumatic that must have been for them.
poptart Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 13 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Bad things happen all the time in church buildings. I'm not sure dedication is intended to be a protection that outweighs people's agency. The temple in Fort Collins has cameras everywhere and an iron fence, they're pretty secure.
jkwilliams Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 Just now, poptart said: The temple in Fort Collins has cameras everywhere and an iron fence, they're pretty secure. Stuff gets stolen from lockers in the temple all the time, unfortunately. 1
poptart Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 1 minute ago, jkwilliams said: Stuff gets stolen from lockers in the temple all the time, unfortunately. ......wonderful..... You guys need someone like krampus, and maybe a few thuggy elders to beat the crap out of thieves. Go prostelyze in Oakland, i'd say 5 points here but they gentrified it, even montbello is getting calm.
Amulek Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 6 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: As awful as this event is, I actually woke up this morning more concerned about the reactions of leaders and members to this kind of event. Will SLC react by changing policies about carrying at church or will they leave it to each ward/stake to address the safety issue? It's this 2nd possibility that scares me the most as I feel an overreaction by certain wards/stakes could put people at greater risk than a one-off shooter like this. I don't see any reason why the church would change its current policy. And, honestly, I can't really think of any similar situation in the past where something like this has triggered a transformation of a church wide policy into a local rule. Quote I know how hot headed some of my conceal carry ward members are. I know how a couple of them fancy themselves skilled as professionals (which they're not) and would love the opportunity to be a hero. I can't really speak to how "hot headed" some of the people in your ward are, but how do you know how skilled they are compared to professionals? Have you spent much time at the range with your ward members? With professionals? Honestly just curious. 2
Robert F. Smith Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 7 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: ................................... As awful as this event is, I actually woke up this morning more concerned about the reactions of leaders and members to this kind of event. Will SLC react by changing policies about carrying at church or will they leave it to each ward/stake to address the safety issue? It's this 2nd possibility that scares me the most as I feel an overreaction by certain wards/stakes could put people at greater risk than a one-off shooter like this. While I have no problem with law enforcement carrying at church I worry about individuals carrying weapons and stepping in to be a hero. What if this shooter had been engaged by someone with a weapon. Instead of leaving he may have opened fire and taken out more people. We'll never know. But law enforcement doesn't just know how to use the weapon, they are trained on what to do and what NOT to do. When to engage, and when not to engage. I don't have any law enforcement in my ward but I know a LOT of members who have conceal carry permits and it scares me to think they will be packing to help "protect" the congregation................................ Nonsense.. The LDS Church has a rock hard policy of no guns at church, except for law enforcement. In fact that is state law in Utah. That also includes no guns on campus at BYU. You don't need to guess as to who pushed to have those laws adopted by the Utah state legislature. The Church has less influence in other states, but does not favor individual concealed carry rights at Church. Does that threaten the lives of some members in certain circumstances? Perhaps. But the policy is clear and is not even remotely in line with paranoid fantasy. The idiotic theories of Cliven Bundy do not apply to the First Presidency and Twelve.
jkwilliams Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, poptart said: ......wonderful..... You guys need someone like krampus, and maybe a few thuggy elders to beat the crap out of thieves. Go prostelyze in Oakland, i'd say 5 points here but they gentrified it, even montbello is getting calm. Who are you referring to as "you guys"? I'm a spy, remember? 1
poptart Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Who are you referring to as "you guys"? I'm a spy, remember? Less talk more krampus.
Avatar4321 Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 41 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Have a question....churches and temples are dedicated in the LDS faith. Where is the protection? Dedicated places can be desecrated
Calm Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, USU78 said: Monstrous. They sounded like they were anti gun control by the way, used the phrase " harsh gun laws". Edited July 23, 2018 by Calm
Popular Post JAHS Posted July 23, 2018 Popular Post Posted July 23, 2018 37 minutes ago, Jeanne said: 41 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Bad things happen all the time in church buildings. I'm not sure dedication is intended to be a protection that outweighs people's agency. Thank you. I have probably not completely understood the reasons for dedications. But thank you...Yes, bad things happen...not to blame anyone or anything...but trying to understand all the whys and whyfores...hard. My biggest concern is for the children who were there and the trauma that will be with them. Dedications and even prayers are a means of recognizing God's hand in all things and our dependence on Him and dedicating ourselves to using the building for His purposes. We pray for protection of the building and ourselves to let God know of our desires and where our hearts are. People are still going to have the agency to do bad things and tornadoes, floods, and fires are still going to happen that might destroy the buildings, but the fact that they are dedicated means that no matter what happens God will help us get through it all and recover from it. And we only hear of the bad things that happen in dedicated buildings. What we don't know is how many bad things did not happen because the building was dedicated? 5
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Calm said: They sounded like they were anti gun control by the way used the phrase " harsh gun laws". I see no qualitative difference between this and using school shootings as an occasion to push for stricter gun control.
strappinglad Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 Dedication does not mean that there is a divine force field placed around it. Graves get dedicated but that does not stop the body therein from deteriorating. The Nauvoo temple was burned , the Kirtland temple was used as a livestock shelter, the temple in Jerusalem was wiped out. You can dedicate your home, but if you leave a pan of grease cooking on the stove the Spirit may prompt you to go turn it off but if you don't listen , I doubt the Lord will get a box of baking soda and douse the flames. 1
Tacenda Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: Dedicated places can be desecrated Sadly, here in Utah we've had many churches in the Cottonwood Heights and West Jordan areas. https://www.ksl.com/article/46352331/4-lds-churches-vandalized-in-cottonwood-heights https://www.good4utah.com/news/local-news/teenage-prank-or-hate-crime-another-lds-church-building-vandalized/1306691256 Edited July 23, 2018 by Tacenda
Scott Lloyd Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 39 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Stuff gets stolen from lockers in the temple all the time, unfortunately. And bottom feeders sneak in and record temple ceremonies, them post them on the Internet. 1
Jeanne Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, JAHS said: Dedications and even prayers are a means of recognizing God's hand in all things and our dependence on Him and dedicating ourselves to using the building for His purposes. We pray for protection of the building and ourselves to let God know of our desires and where our hearts are. People are still going to have the agency to do bad things and tornadoes, floods, and fires are still going to happen that might destroy the buildings, but the fact that they are dedicated means that no matter what happens God will help us get through it all and recover from it. And we only hear of the bad things that happen in dedicated buildings. What we don't know is how many bad things did not happen because the building was dedicated? Thank you. I have wondered about this in understanding even in dedication to graves. So this is interesting to me. Bad things happen...whether dedications or not..I just wanted to understand. In regards to graves of course, my thoughts were more of protection. Edited July 23, 2018 by Jeanne
strappinglad Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: And bottom feeders sneak in and record temple ceremonies, them post them on the Internet. If only there was a benevolent order , that would reach out and compensate these types for their actions.
Anijen Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 44 minutes ago, jkwilliams said: Stuff gets stolen from lockers in the temple all the time, unfortunately. Emphasis mine, "...all the time," I doubt that. I have never had anything stolen, never heard of someone's stuff getting stolen. I'm sure it has happened, but not all the time (not even close to some of the time, probably not even rarely). 2
JAHS Posted July 23, 2018 Posted July 23, 2018 17 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Thank you. I have wondered about this in understanding even in dedication to graves. So this is interesting to me. Bad things happen...whether dedications or not..I just wanted to understand. In regards to graves of course, my thoughts were more of protection. To me dedication of a grave sort of puts closure to the whole ordeal of the funeral process. It's a comfort to those who morn that the ground is now a hallowed place where they can come and quietly reflect on the memories of their loved ones who have passed.
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