Sacrament shooting

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As far as I can tell, “active shooter situations” don’t occur at gun shows or in police stations. 

The deranged killers don’t expect to survive themselves — suicide by cop, as it were — but their goal is to take out as many victims as they can before they get stopped. It goes without saying that’s easier in a “gun-free” zone. 

Terrorists target police stations regularly. Surely they know the police they are targeting are going to be armed. 

[Scott Lloyd]

9 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Terrorists target police stations regularly. Surely they know the police they are targeting are going to be armed. 

lI’m specifically referring to “active shooter situations” of the sort that occur at schools, theaters and public events. CFR that these occur regularly at police stations. 

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

lI’m specifically referring to “active shooter situations” of the sort that occur at schools, theaters and public events. CFR that these occur regularly at police stations. 

Not regularly, but they happen (such as the attack on a Dallas Police station in 2015). 

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Not regularly, but they happen (such as the attack on a Dallas Police station in 2015). 

Link?

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Link?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_attack_on_Dallas_police

[Bernard Gui]

21 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Actually, when I posed the question, I really thought that there was a certain protection in those prayers of dedications..this is what I was taught.  I did not mean to question anything about something so devastating as this situation was...but I had kind of a hope that somewhere...sometime..God could intervene in places of worship where blessings had incurred.  It was an innocent question..but I think people expect me to be very derisive..and I really do have sincere questions.  I have to be so careful here..more so than others.

You once hoped that God would intervene to protect blessed spaces, but this event proves he doesn’t? How could you know that God has intervened nowhere at no time? 

Edited July 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Not regularly, but they happen (such as the attack on a Dallas Police station in 2015). 

 

8 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Link?

Never mind. I found this: 

http://interactives.dallasnews.com/2016/dpd-shooting/

Are there other examples of active shooters at police stations? I know you admitted they don’t happen regularly, but I wonder if this one is anomalous. 

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You once had a hope that God might intervene to protect blessed spaces, but this event proves he doesn’t? How could you know that God has intervened nowhere at no time? 

On occasion, the slaying of righteous people is not prevented. The Book of Mormon teaches this. The Crucifixion exemplifies this. It depends on the purposes of God. Our will, no matter how justified we think it might be, will not nullify God’s purposes. 

[clarkgoble]

55 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

As far as I can tell, “active shooter situations” don’t occur at gun shows or in police stations. 

The deranged killers don’t expect to survive themselves — suicide by cop, as it were — but their goal is to take out as many victims as they can before they get stopped. It goes without saying that’s easier in a “gun-free” zone. 

Actually suicide by cop happens more than most of us would suspect where cops congregate. Not common in absolute terms, but relative to expectations much more common than many think. Saw some surprising statistics on that but for the life of me I can't find it now. However a quick google finds lots of examples. That ignores other places police in a local area might congregate such as a particular restaurant. Of course many other examples of suicide by cop don't necessarily take place where police congregate. They may just create an incident where they attempt to get shot.

Getting back to the original story, I did some searching and it looks like there's an LDS Chapel shooting about every decade. Again not common in absolute terms but more frequent than I'd have suspected.

Edited July 26, 2018 by clarkgoble

[jkwilliams]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

Never mind. I found this: 

http://interactives.dallasnews.com/2016/dpd-shooting/

Are there other examples of active shooters at police stations? I know you admitted they don’t happen regularly, but I wonder if this one is anomalous. 

It's not a question of admitting anything. I was just noting that sometimes these things happen when the shooter knows very well the potential victims are likely to be armed. By logic alone, shooters would choose locations and events that are less likely to be protected by armed individuals, but obviously, logic isn't much of a factor in many of these situations. The Baton Rouge shooter knew his victims would be armed, presumably, as would the Lakewood shooter. 

[Amulek]

11 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Are there other examples of active shooters at police stations? I know you admitted they don’t happen regularly, but I wonder if this one is anomalous. 

There might be others, but none that I can think of off the top of my head. The most common sort of police station shootings are more of the drive-by scenario rather than what you would normally think of as an active shooter situation. 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Actually suicide by cop happens more than most of us would suspect where cops congregate. Not common in absolute terms, but relative to expectations much more common than many think. Saw some surprising statistics on that but for the life of me I can't find it now. However a quick google finds lots of examples. That ignores other places police in a local area might congregate such as a particular restaurant. Of course many other examples of suicide by cop don't necessarily take place where police congregate. They may just create an incident where they attempt to get shot.

Getting back to the original story, I did some searching and it looks like there's an LDS Chapel shooting about every decade. Again not common in absolute terms but more frequent than I'd have suspected.

I noticed the search term you used was “shooting near police station”. What I had in mind was an active shooter inside the facility, the sort of thing that transpires in schools and theaters. That’s not the same thing as a drive-by attack or a crime of passion that happens to occur outside the station. 

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, Amulek said:

There might be others, but none that I can think of off the top of my head. The most common sort of police station shootings are more of the drive-by scenario rather than what you would normally think of as an active shooter situation. 

 

That’s pretty much what I thought. 

[Bernard Gui]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

On occasion, the slaying of righteous people is not prevented. The Book of Mormon teaches this. The Crucifixion exemplifies this. It depends on the purposes of God. Our will, no matter how justified we think it might be, will not nullify God’s purposes. 

I was going to raise the issue of Alma and Amulek being forced to witness the slaughter of their faithful followers and the destruction of the wicked at the coming of Christ among other examples one way or the other....because these events were documented by participants, but I just wanted to focus on the question of how would we know that God has never intervened....how would we know of intervention if it happened?

Once while serving as bishop, I got a late night call for help from someone in a troubled neighborhood in Tacoma. I woke up my counselor and we drove over to the apartment. The building was dark. As we sat in the car looking at the address, we simultaneously felt a very strong warning not to go in. We left. What was in there? I don’t know. Did God  intervene to protect two servants who were trying to do His errand? I believe he did.

On the other hand, I recall the story of President McKay and his brother traveling to Idaho to help some flood victims. They were driving in his brother’s convertible. They came to a covered bridge. The Spirit warned them not to cross it. They got out and looked it over and decided it was sound, so they went across. What they missed was the rope strung inside the bridge. It almost decapitated President McKay. He was seriously injured. If God really wanted to protect them, he should have pulled the spark plug wires so their car wouldn’t start.

[Scott Lloyd]

11 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

It's not a question of admitting anything. I was just noting that sometimes these things happen when the shooter knows very well the potential victims are likely to be armed. By logic alone, shooters would choose locations and events that are less likely to be protected by armed individuals, but obviously, logic isn't much of a factor in many of these situations. The Baton Rouge shooter knew his victims would be armed, presumably, as would the Lakewood shooter. 

Logic also would direct that someone intent on killing as many as possible would pick a location where few if any are likely to be armed. 

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I noticed the search term you used was “shooting near police station”. What I had in mind was an active shooter inside the facility, the sort of thing that transpires in schools and theaters. That’s not the same thing as a drive-by attack or a crime of passion that happens to occur outside the station. 

Again, it makes sense that the expectation that potential targets are heavily armed is a deterrent to these kinds of situations, but these attacks are quite often not the result of logic and planning but are products of rage or delusion. 

[HappyJackWagon]

I'm quite certain that many will hate this article, but I think it provides some food for thought. It's basic claim is that Mormons are, in general, a gun loving people, and there are consequences of that gun-loving culture. I think she's overstating, and obviously this recent shooting happened in Nevada, not Utah, but still, I think there may be some valid points. Many are against gun control and find it uncouth to even mention it in the aftermath of a tragedy, but as long as there are tragedies, people will continue to ask and wonder how they can be prevented.

She quoted Pres. Nelson's comments after Parkland-

Quote

"I think of Alaina Petty, a fourteen-year-old Latter-day Saint whose life was snuffed out by that sniper’s bullet. It’s natural for you and others to say: ‘How could God allow things like that to happen?’ Well, God allows us to have our agency, and men have passed laws that allow guns to go to people who shouldn’t have them.”

Quote

and the article further states-

"But there’s a pretty big “on the other hand.” Many Mormons are deeply and vocally supportive of the Second Amendment. The “LDS Liberty Products” website says this stance dates back to the Mormon pioneers, who relied on guns for hunting and protection."

https://religionnews.com/2018/07/24/mormons-and-guns-its-time-to-set-limits/

Personally, I don't see it as a Mormon fascination with guns as much as I see it as a national cultural fascination with guns, yet Utah's (obviously very Mormon) ranks last in gun protection measures. So maybe she has a point.

Quote

For each of the 28 possible measures, states could earn one point. Liberal-leaning Massachusetts received the highest score, with 24 out of 28 possible gun control measures enacted by the legislature.

Utah received the lowest score, with zero points.

 

[jkwilliams]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Logic also would direct that someone intent on killing as many as possible would pick a location where few if any are likely to be armed. 

I believe I said that. 

[clarkgoble]

17 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I noticed the search term you used was “shooting near police station”. What I had in mind was an active shooter inside the facility, the sort of thing that transpires in schools and theaters. That’s not the same thing as a drive-by attack or a crime of passion that happens to occur outside the station. 

I think that's partially because it's hard to get inside a police station. Even the Provo police station is a locked door and bullet proof glass where you slip cheques or credit cards down a slot where it's impossible to shoot a gun. I suspect that's true in most locations. They have a reasonable amount of security that other locations don't. Were that not true I suspect we'd see more shootings in police stations rather than near them.

As is with a few exceptions a shooting in a police station is typically because an officer didn't secure their firearm and an arrestee grabs it. Part of the problem is that many older police stations just weren't designed for safety or security. Police Magazine seems to have a surprisingly long list of shootings or stabbings in police stations though.

Edited July 26, 2018 by clarkgoble

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, jkwilliams said:

Again, it makes sense that the expectation that potential targets are heavily armed is a deterrent to these kinds of situations, but these attacks are quite often not the result of logic and planning but are products of rage or delusion. 

Hmm. The incidents I hear about seem to involve considerable scheming and planning, however deranged the killer might be. 

[clarkgoble]

3 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm quite certain that many will hate this article, but I think it provides some food for thought. It's basic claim is that Mormons are, in general, a gun loving people, and there are consequences of that gun-loving culture. I think she's overstating, and obviously this recent shooting happened in Nevada, not Utah, but still, I think there may be some valid points. Many are against gun control and find it uncouth to even mention it in the aftermath of a tragedy, but as long as there are tragedies, people will continue to ask and wonder how they can be prevented.

I suspect Mormonism's ties to gun culture reflect more our location (the west) and our ties to Republicanism that arose in the post war era. So there's a feedback loop there.

That said, I tend to be pretty skeptical of gun control. I'd have much more sympathy if the people pushing gun control would also push alcohol control since alcohol is so closely tied with violence particularly domestic violence. As I recall a staggering number of murders are tied to recent alcohol use. And I definitely think we need more laws on domestic violence including regular inspections of those convicted. Likewise those pushing limiting gun rights are perfectly fine with extremely permissive free speech right even when media are being irresponsible with reporting of mass shootings or other violence highly incentivizing copycats.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I think that's partially because it's hard to get inside a police station. Even the Provo police station is a locked door and bullet proof glass where you slip cheques or credit cards down a slot where it's impossible to shoot a gun. I suspect that's true in most locations. They have a reasonable amount of security that other locations don't. Were that not true I suspect we'd see more shootings in police stations rather than at them.

Even so, police stations I’ve been in have at least a reception area where the public is freely admitted. 

[clarkgoble]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Even so, police stations I’ve been in have at least a reception area where the public is freely admitted. 

Yes, but typically there aren't as many police there. It does happen as some of the stories I linked to above suggest. So I'm not saying they don't happen. Again look at that list of shootings from Police Magazine. I suspect the number would be higher if more police stations were open like the ones you mentioned rather than how say both Provo and Orem have theirs. Even a lot of the shootings from that list are people shooting from the parking lot at the building simply due to the security of design.

Edited July 26, 2018 by clarkgoble

[jkwilliams]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Hmm. The incidents I hear about seem to involve considerable scheming and planning, however deranged the killer might be. 

From what I've seen, most of these incidents target specific people and places not because they are easy but because the shooter has a specific reason for targeting them. School shootings, for example, are not often committed by someone with no connection to the school. It's usually a student (occasionally a faculty member) with rage or resentment towards the other students and faculty. But, as I've said, you're quite right that the expectation of armed resistance is a likely deterrent, at least to those thinking rationally.

[HappyJackWagon]

8 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I suspect Mormonism's ties to gun culture reflect more our location (the west) and our ties to Republicanism that arose in the post war era. So there's a feedback loop there.

That said, I tend to be pretty skeptical of gun control. I'd have much more sympathy if the people pushing gun control would also push alcohol control since alcohol is so closely tied with violence particularly domestic violence. As I recall a staggering number of murders are tied to recent alcohol use. And I definitely think we need more laws on domestic violence including regular inspections of those convicted. Likewise those pushing limiting gun rights are perfectly fine with extremely permissive free speech right even when media are being irresponsible with reporting of mass shootings or other violence highly incentivizing copycats.

I agree about being part of the western/republican culture.

However, I think you are overstating the comparison between guns and alcohol/free speech. IMO there should be safety restrictions on all of those things, but guns are literally an instrument designed to cause death. The others may result in that but it's not their design.