Sacrament shooting

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Unaffiliated said:

Should we be allowed to bring concealed handguns to church for protection?

Over 80 years ago, my Dad (who never owned a gun) met my Mom for the first time in Fallon, Nevada.  They were both visiting friends.

Today in Nevada, LDS men who brandish guns and violate the law are given pardons.

[Jeanne]

Although I know where some of you live...my first thought this morning was that all of you were okay and was not affected by this horrible tragedy.  But we are all affected.  Very sad.

[HappyJackWagon]

8 hours ago, osteotome said:

A police officer friend once told me if a shooter entered the chapel the best defense would be for everyone to engage him such as everyone begin throwing hymn books, chairs etc at him and subduing him. Having people packing would also help. 

This story is terrible and I'm thankful it didn't turn out even worse. It could have been MUCH worse. After a shooting at another non-lds church we had a discussion on this board about how to protect against that kind of a tragedy.

As awful as this event  is, I actually woke up this morning more concerned about the reactions of leaders and members to this kind of event. Will SLC react by changing policies about carrying at church or will they leave it to each ward/stake to address the safety issue? It's this 2nd possibility that scares me the most as I feel an overreaction by certain wards/stakes could put people at greater risk than a one-off shooter like this.

While I have no problem with law enforcement carrying at church I worry about individuals carrying weapons and stepping in to be a hero. What if this shooter had been engaged by someone with a weapon. Instead of leaving he may have opened fire and taken out more people. We'll never know. But law enforcement doesn't just know how to use the weapon, they are trained on what to do and what NOT to do. When to engage, and when not to engage. I don't have any law enforcement in my ward but I know a LOT of members who have conceal carry permits and it scares me to think they will be packing to help "protect" the congregation.

In the previous thread I was on the fence about whether it would be better or not to allow conceal carry at church, but now that it's out of the realm of theory and into reality, I feel much more strongly about it. I know how hot headed some of my conceal carry ward members are. I know how a couple of them fancy themselves skilled as professionals (which they're not) and would love the opportunity to be a hero. I can envision a ward like mine (ultra conservative, gun-loving) and have 50 weapons at church next Sunday. I can even envision the bishopric coming up with a plan to have certain members designated as the conceal/carry protectors, which again, I think puts us at greater risk.

That's a long-winded way of saying, I hope the church makes a statement of policy that would keep wards/stakes from coming up with their own safety plans. I don't want a "gun-free" zone sticker on the front windows of the church, but I also don't want non-professional gun enthusiasts tasked with protecting me and my family.

[poptart]

32 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This story is terrible and I'm thankful it didn't turn out even worse. It could have been MUCH worse. After a shooting at another non-lds church we had a discussion on this board about how to protect against that kind of a tragedy.

As awful as this event  is, I actually woke up this morning more concerned about the reactions of leaders and members to this kind of event. Will SLC react by changing policies about carrying at church or will they leave it to each ward/stake to address the safety issue? It's this 2nd possibility that scares me the most as I feel an overreaction by certain wards/stakes could put people at greater risk than a one-off shooter like this.

While I have no problem with law enforcement carrying at church I worry about individuals carrying weapons and stepping in to be a hero. What if this shooter had been engaged by someone with a weapon. Instead of leaving he may have opened fire and taken out more people. We'll never know. But law enforcement doesn't just know how to use the weapon, they are trained on what to do and what NOT to do. When to engage, and when not to engage. I don't have any law enforcement in my ward but I know a LOT of members who have conceal carry permits and it scares me to think they will be packing to help "protect" the congregation.

In the previous thread I was on the fence about whether it would be better or not to allow conceal carry at church, but now that it's out of the realm of theory and into reality, I feel much more strongly about it. I know how hot headed some of my conceal carry ward members are. I know how a couple of them fancy themselves skilled as professionals (which they're not) and would love the opportunity to be a hero. I can envision a ward like mine (ultra conservative, gun-loving) and have 50 weapons at church next Sunday. I can even envision the bishopric coming up with a plan to have certain members designated as the conceal/carry protectors, which again, I think puts us at greater risk.

That's a long-winded way of saying, I hope the church makes a statement of policy that would keep wards/stakes from coming up with their own safety plans. I don't want a "gun-free" zone sticker on the front windows of the church, but I also don't want non-professional gun enthusiasts tasked with protecting me and my family.

My last job in insurance was a commercial property adjuster, we'd receive all kinds of nasty grams and the ocasional death threat over storage units that were insured at 2,5 and 10k, wow the entitlement of some people.  That being said, something we learned, mass shooter insurance is a thing now, they actually have policies to cover the legal fallout if a disgruntled employee shows up and shoots the office up, sure makes you look at contemporary American society with disgust doesn't it?  Not sure what caused this guy to snap, but this i'm pretty sure is related to the 800 lbs. gorilla in the room everyone is choosing to ignore, our toxic culture.  Look at the family disfunction, lack of respect for anything, selfishness, apathy and overall lack of care for the poor.  I'm sure there was some church yesterday that was citing Sodom and Gomorah and their honosexual tendancies, yet i'm willing to bet they glossed over Ezekiel and St. Paul's talk on how it was their lack of charity, selfishness, government corruption and over all apathy towards each other that led to their demise.  When I lived in WA my old barber (Was a marine) and I used to talk about things like the shooting they had at a mall in tacoma, plenty of armed people yet no one did anything.  I love firearms, but I wonder just how much time a lot of people who have them spend at the range, when things go wrong things unfold like they did at the mall, they do nothing.  Could have been worse, could have had people shooting at anything that moved.

You know, some of the best advise I was ever given was don't make anyone hate you, they'll hold a grudge and look for the first chance of revenge they can.  It can be ruining you, your career or going after your loved ones, there is no limit to some peoples depravity.  No idea what pushed this guy to the brink, we may never know but if I was someone in his ward i'd be thinking long and hard, maybe it's time to find a smaller ward/place of worship?  Someplace where I can really get to know everyone?  Sounds silly, but IRL i get to know the crazies, hope is if they decide to snap one day i'd be spared.  That and I know what it's like to be stepped on, I feel for them.

Way I see it, we'll keep seeing more and more of this, gun confiscation won't work we'll end up like the UK which has things like stabbing and now acid attacks.  At least a bullet wound is quick, if it's 9mm you have a chance of survival.  With a knife attack you're done, acid, well not going there.  A lot needs to change in American society and sadly, those who claim to be religious (from what i've seen) don't seem to really care as much as they should.  The attitudes I used to run into, "Oh i'm Gods elect!  I have a temple recommend and am wealthy I can step on as many gentiles as I want!  I know the church is true!"  or the even more vocal remarks from evangelicals will just add fuel to the fire.  Maybe team up with someone like Catholic Charities and actually do something to combat urban poverty, family disfunction and a lot of the misery we see in the USA nowadays?  The homeless working families you see in places like Seattle, Portland and a lot of California?  The holier than thou double standard aka I'm not perfect just forgiven attitude makes religious people an easy group to hate and in our current society no ones going to care how much you suffer.  As someone who is utterly disgusted with contemporary American Christianity, would following Christs primary commandment perhaps be a step in the right direction?  A little less hate and a little more love for the least of these? 

Edited July 23, 2018 by poptart

[HappyJackWagon]

8 minutes ago, poptart said:

My last job in insurance was a commercial property adjuster, we'd receive all kinds of nasty grams and the ocasional death threat over 2-10k storage units.  That being said, something we learned, mass shooter insurance is a thing now, they actually have policies to cover the legal fallout if a disgruntled employee shows up and shoots the office up, sure makes you look at contemporary American society with disgust doesn't it?  Not sure what caused this guy to snap, but this i'm pretty sure is related to the 800 lbs. gorilla in the room everyone is choosing to ignore, our toxic culture.  Look at the family disfunction, lack of respect for anything, selfishness, apathy and overall lack of care for the poor.  I'm sure there was some church yesterday that was citing Sodom and Gomorah and their honosexual tendancies, yet i'm willing to bet they glossed over Ezekiel and St. Paul's talk on how it was their lack of charity, selfishness, government corruption and over all apathy towards each other that led to their demise.  When I lived in WA my old barber (Was a marine) and I used to talk about things like the shooting they had at a mall in tacoma, plenty of armed people yet no one did anything.  I love firearms, but I wonder just how much time a lot of people who have them spend at the range, when things go wrong things unfold like they did at the mall, they do nothing.  Could have been worse, could have had people shooting at anything that moved.

You know, some of the best advise I was ever given was don't make anyone hate you, they'll hold a grudge and look for the first chance of revenge they can.  It can be ruining you, your career or going after your loved ones, there is no limit to some peoples depravity.  No idea what pushed this guy to the brink, we may never know but if I was someone in his ward i'd be thinking long and hard, maybe it's time to find a smaller ward/place of worship?  Someplace where I can really get to know everyone?  Sounds silly, but IRL i get to know the crazies, hope is if they decide to snap one day i'd be spared.  That and I know what it's like to be stepped on, I feel for them.

Way I see it, we'll keep seeing more and more of this, gun confiscation won't work we'll end up like the UK which has things like stabbing and now acid attacks.  At least a bullet wound is quick, if it's 9mm you have a chance of survival.  With a knife attack you're done, acid, well not going there.  A lot needs to change in American society and sadly, those who claim to be religious (from what i've seen) don't seem to really care as much as they should.  The attitudes I used to run into, "Oh i'm Gods elect!  I have a temple recommend and am wealthy I can step on as many gentiles as I want!  I know the church is true!"  or the even more vocal remarks from evangelicals will just add fuel to the fire.  Maybe team up with someone like Catholic Charities and actually do something to combat urban poverty, family disfunction and a lot of the misery we see in the USA nowadays?  The homeless working families you see in places like Seattle, Portland and a lot of California?  The holier than thou double standard aka I'm not perfect just forgiven attitude makes religious people an easy group to hate and in our current society no ones going to care how much you suffer.  As someone who is utterly disgusted with contemporary American Christianity, would following Christs primary commandment perhaps be a step in the right direction?  A little less hate and a little more love for the least of these? 

There's often a tendency to chalk these kinds of things up to a "crazy guy with a gun". And maybe that truly is the case but hopefully more can be learned about the motivations. Either way, it leaves a lot of people feeling vulnerable at church and leaders will do something. The question is, which leaders and what will they do? American society has many problems as you suggest, but I don't see that arming everyone is a great solution. I definitely don't want my ward members armed for the random event something like this happens.

[poptart]

11 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

There's often a tendency to chalk these kinds of things up to a "crazy guy with a gun". And maybe that truly is the case but hopefully more can be learned about the motivations. Either way, it leaves a lot of people feeling vulnerable at church and leaders will do something. The question is, which leaders and what will they do? American society has many problems as you suggest, but I don't see that arming everyone is a great solution. I definitely don't want my ward members armed for the random event something like this happens.

I like the Israeli, Swiss, German, pft a good chunk of Europe option, everyone serves.  In every Swiss household there's atleast one automatic assault rifle, and the gov't pays for the ammo at many of their marksmanship competitions.  That being said, more is spent on mental health and their societies on a whole are a lot more stable than ours.  In Germany businesses are closed by law on Sundays and holidays, abortion is pretty much illegal after the first trimester, divorce/out of wedlock births are quite a bit lower and communities are still pretty stable.  Not saying we should be like the Germans but hey, there was a time not too long ago we weren't too different.  I know Utah was one of the last places in the USA to allow businesses to open on Sunday, greed trumping culture and values, real shame.  Also, even if everyone is armed you still have the same problem, toxic culture.  What happens if one of the armed people snaps and starts shooting?  You'll have a Yosimitie sam style gun fight.  Like I said, why not try fixing American culture?  Winning hearts and minds is much more practical in the long run.  I'd be finding out just what pushed this guy so far that he decided to shoot up a church.  That Baptist Church in Texas that was shot up?  The nutcase shooter wasn't treated very nicely by a few in the congregation.  Not saying you can control people, but i've seen it before, an elder/pastor on a power trip or a pastors wife/someone in authority who is a bit too judgmental.  Big suprise, no one really talked about that, it was all about guns and the failure of our mental health system but mostly guns.  Considering that guy was a vet they should be grateful, he could have done much more damange than he did. 

Edited July 23, 2018 by poptart

[Rain]

20 minutes ago, poptart said:

My last job in insurance was a commercial property adjuster, we'd receive all kinds of nasty grams and the ocasional death threat over storage units that were insured at 2,5 and 10k, wow the entitlement of some people.  That being said, something we learned, mass shooter insurance is a thing now, they actually have policies to cover the legal fallout if a disgruntled employee shows up and shoots the office up, sure makes you look at contemporary American society with disgust doesn't it?  Not sure what caused this guy to snap, but this i'm pretty sure is related to the 800 lbs. gorilla in the room everyone is choosing to ignore, our toxic culture.  Look at the family disfunction, lack of respect for anything, selfishness, apathy and overall lack of care for the poor.  I'm sure there was some church yesterday that was citing Sodom and Gomorah and their honosexual tendancies, yet i'm willing to bet they glossed over Ezekiel and St. Paul's talk on how it was their lack of charity, selfishness, government corruption and over all apathy towards each other that led to their demise.  When I lived in WA my old barber (Was a marine) and I used to talk about things like the shooting they had at a mall in tacoma, plenty of armed people yet no one did anything.  I love firearms, but I wonder just how much time a lot of people who have them spend at the range, when things go wrong things unfold like they did at the mall, they do nothing.  Could have been worse, could have had people shooting at anything that moved.

You know, some of the best advise I was ever given was don't make anyone hate you, they'll hold a grudge and look for the first chance of revenge they can.  It can be ruining you, your career or going after your loved ones, there is no limit to some peoples depravity.  No idea what pushed this guy to the brink, we may never know but if I was someone in his ward i'd be thinking long and hard, maybe it's time to find a smaller ward/place of worship?  Someplace where I can really get to know everyone?  Sounds silly, but IRL i get to know the crazies, hope is if they decide to snap one day i'd be spared.  That and I know what it's like to be stepped on, I feel for them.

Way I see it, we'll keep seeing more and more of this, gun confiscation won't work we'll end up like the UK which has things like stabbing and now acid attacks.  At least a bullet wound is quick, if it's 9mm you have a chance of survival.  With a knife attack you're done, acid, well not going there.  A lot needs to change in American society and sadly, those who claim to be religious (from what i've seen) don't seem to really care as much as they should.  The attitudes I used to run into, "Oh i'm Gods elect!  I have a temple recommend and am wealthy I can step on as many gentiles as I want!  I know the church is true!"  or the even more vocal remarks from evangelicals will just add fuel to the fire.  Maybe team up with someone like Catholic Charities and actually do something to combat urban poverty, family disfunction and a lot of the misery we see in the USA nowadays?  The homeless working families you see in places like Seattle, Portland and a lot of California?  The holier than thou double standard aka I'm not perfect just forgiven attitude makes religious people an easy group to hate and in our current society no ones going to care how much you suffer.  As someone who is utterly disgusted with contemporary American Christianity, would following Christs primary commandment perhaps be a step in the right direction?  A little less hate and a little more love for the least of these? 

The church and some of our members on their own are already doing this. That's just with CC. Members of our church also work with Lutheran Social Services and many others.

I'm not saying that I don't agree with much of what you are saying. There is so much going wrong in our society and the societies all over the world. I'm just saying we need to know that we and many other good people in and out of churches may be doing more than most people know about. 

One of the sweetest things I have seen was mormons, catholics, lutherans, central christians and muslims working together to help a family. I even snapped a picture of it because it reminded me of the good in the world.

[poptart]

2 minutes ago, Rain said:

The church and some of our members on their own are already doing this. That's just with CC. Members of our church also work with Lutheran Social Services and many others.

I'm not saying that I don't agree with much of what you are saying. There is so much going wrong in our society and the societies all over the world. I'm just saying we need to know that we and many other good people in and out of churches may be doing more than most people know about. 

One of the sweetest things I have seen was mormons, catholics, lutherans, central christians and muslims working together to help a family. I even snapped a picture of it because it reminded me of the good in the world.

That makes me feel a bit better, I hope more of this happens.  I give the Mormon church credit, they're done a lot for LGBT rights in Utah, even Elder Holland has had talks where he tells people to be nice to them.  TBH, i'd get the word out a bit more, know it kinda goes against what the New Testament says about doing good deeds quietly, but there are so many that give religion a bad name it's poisoned a lot of people, it takes a lot more good to counter a little bad so the more positive vibes you put out there the better. 

[revelstoked]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

As awful as this event  is, I actually woke up this morning more concerned about the reactions of leaders and members to this kind of event. Will SLC react by changing policies about carrying at church or will they leave it to each ward/stake to address the safety issue? It's this 2nd possibility that scares me the most as I feel an overreaction by certain wards/stakes could put people at greater risk than a one-off shooter like this.

For reference here is the current church-wide policy (handbook 2, section 21.2.4)

Quote

 

21.2.4 Firearms Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law.

 

 

 

I was in a previous ward where a church shooting (non-lds) had happened and the stake presidents in the area did a full security assessment.  There was a discussion of who might be allowed to concealed carry at church and the conclusion was only active service police officers should.  There were other members of the ward who wanted to (and who had licenses) but were not in law enforcement but the direct request was for them not to. 

There is more to security than simply being able to safely handle and fire a weapon. There is situational training and experience in knowing when and how to act or not act to resolve a situation, because the wrong actions make make it worse.   

Edited July 23, 2018 by revelstoked

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This story is terrible and I'm thankful it didn't turn out even worse. It could have been MUCH worse. After a shooting at another non-lds church we had a discussion on this board about how to protect against that kind of a tragedy.

As awful as this event  is, I actually woke up this morning more concerned about the reactions of leaders and members to this kind of event. Will SLC react by changing policies about carrying at church or will they leave it to each ward/stake to address the safety issue? It's this 2nd possibility that scares me the most as I feel an overreaction by certain wards/stakes could put people at greater risk than a one-off shooter like this.

While I have no problem with law enforcement carrying at church I worry about individuals carrying weapons and stepping in to be a hero. What if this shooter had been engaged by someone with a weapon. Instead of leaving he may have opened fire and taken out more people. We'll never know. But law enforcement doesn't just know how to use the weapon, they are trained on what to do and what NOT to do. When to engage, and when not to engage. I don't have any law enforcement in my ward but I know a LOT of members who have conceal carry permits and it scares me to think they will be packing to help "protect" the congregation.

In the previous thread I was on the fence about whether it would be better or not to allow conceal carry at church, but now that it's out of the realm of theory and into reality, I feel much more strongly about it. I know how hot headed some of my conceal carry ward members are. I know how a couple of them fancy themselves skilled as professionals (which they're not) and would love the opportunity to be a hero. I can envision a ward like mine (ultra conservative, gun-loving) and have 50 weapons at church next Sunday. I can even envision the bishopric coming up with a plan to have certain members designated as the conceal/carry protectors, which again, I think puts us at greater risk.

That's a long-winded way of saying, I hope the church makes a statement of policy that would keep wards/stakes from coming up with their own safety plans. I don't want a "gun-free" zone sticker on the front windows of the church, but I also don't want non-professional gun enthusiasts tasked with protecting me and my family.

Sometimes I wonder if we'll become like the wild west and people will go indoors when there is a shootout. Or seeing everyone toting guns like the western movies. Yes, these are sad days for sure.

[Flyonthewall]

Here is a facebook post about this:

This is not something you expect to happen to you when you go to church on Sunday.

As we sat in church today...... John decided to do a terrible thing.

Sacrament was past and the children had sang primary songs about the Pioneers coming across the plains.

John stood up and opened fire on his home teacher and ministering brother he called his friend.

Drugs and mental illness are a big part of his decision to take the life of his friend.

Our whole ward has been in lock down since about 12:50 today until about 4:30.

Many witnessed him doing this as it was right there in front of us.

When the shots rang out they were distinct loud and I counted, I think 6 or 7 shots.

It was so unexpected and so sudden, you had no time to react.
Fathers and mothers and children dropped to the floor then ran out of the chapel as we were directed to all huddled in one place away from the area.

John ran out with men running after him

In front of families, friends and children, John decided to do this terrible thing.

So as you might suspect this has been a terrible ordeal for the whole Ward, the city and especially the family that just had their father, husband and grandpa taken from them.

Please send all your prayers of comfort to those that have gone through this and especially this family.

Please pray for the children too that they may be able to get past this and have some peace to be able to sleep tonight.

"

Suggests drugs and mental illness played a major part in this...

Edited July 23, 2018 by Flyonthewall

[HappyJackWagon]

9 minutes ago, revelstoked said:

For reference here is the current church-wide policy (handbook 2, section 21.2.4)

I was in a previous ward where a church shooting (non-lds) had happened and the stake presidents in the area did a full security assessment.  There was a discussion of who might be allowed to concealed carry at church and the conclusion was only active service police officers should.  There were other members of the ward who wanted to (and who had licenses) but were not in law enforcement but the direct request was for them not to. 

There is more to security than simply being able to safely handle and fire a weapon. There is situational training and experience in knowing when and how to act or not act to resolve a situation, because the wrong actions make make it worse.   

I think that policy is just as it should be. I hope it sticks. I already know of many in my ward who conceal/carry at church.

[Flyonthewall]

Here is a facebook post about this:

"

This is not something you expect to happen to you when you go to church on Sunday.

As we sat in church today...... John decided to do a terrible thing.

Sacrament was past and the children had sang primary songs about the Pioneers coming across the plains.

John stood up and opened fire on his home teacher and ministering brother he called his friend.

Drugs and mental illness are a big part of his decision to take the life of his friend.

Our whole ward has been in lock down since about 12:50 today until about 4:30.

Many witnessed him doing this as it was right there in front of us.

When the shots rang out they were distinct loud and I counted, I think 6 or 7 shots.

It was so unexpected and so sudden, you had no time to react.
Fathers and mothers and children dropped to the floor then ran out of the chapel as we were directed to all huddled in one place away from the area.

John ran out with men running after him

In front of families, friends and children, John decided to do this terrible thing.

So as you might suspect this has been a terrible ordeal for the whole Ward, the city and especially the family that just had their father, husband and grandpa taken from them.

Please send all your prayers of comfort to those that have gone through this and especially this family.

Please pray for the children too that they may be able to get past this and have some peace to be able to sleep tonight.

"

Suggests drugs and mental illness played a major part in this...

 

 

Sorry - editing functions have changed since I last used them

Edited July 23, 2018 by Flyonthewall

[clarkgoble]

Despite appearances crime and especially murder and attempted murder are way, way, way down. Ditto school shootings. It just doesn't seem that way due to the way the press and social media function on us psychologically. So we're not turning into the wild west. If anything we're moving farther away from it each year.

[Tacenda]

4 minutes ago, Flyonthewall said:

Here is a facebook post about this:

"

This is not something you expect to happen to you when you go to church on Sunday.

As we sat in church today...... John decided to do a terrible thing.

Sacrament was past and the children had sang primary songs about the Pioneers coming across the plains.

John stood up and opened fire on his home teacher and ministering brother he called his friend.

Drugs and mental illness are a big part of his decision to take the life of his friend.

Our whole ward has been in lock down since about 12:50 today until about 4:30.

Many witnessed him doing this as it was right there in front of us.

When the shots rang out they were distinct loud and I counted, I think 6 or 7 shots.

It was so unexpected and so sudden, you had no time to react.
Fathers and mothers and children dropped to the floor then ran out of the chapel as we were directed to all huddled in one place away from the area.

John ran out with men running after him

In front of families, friends and children, John decided to do this terrible thing.

So as you might suspect this has been a terrible ordeal for the whole Ward, the city and especially the family that just had their father, husband and grandpa taken from them.

Please send all your prayers of comfort to those that have gone through this and especially this family.

Please pray for the children too that they may be able to get past this and have some peace to be able to sleep tonight.

"

Suggests drugs and mental illness played a major part in this...

I feel for members out there. The man who bought our previous home moved from a ward where he was Elders Quorum president and they told us a story that had happened the night before where someone he had tried to help showed up drugged out and begging for money right in front of his family during the night. Sounds like the man shot was the shooter's friend and home teacher. It's like people have to be careful to not get too close to anyone for fear there are going to be consequences that aren't good. It'll force people to have a hands off approach out of safety concerns.

[Calm]

In most cases, getting close to someone may help lower the likelihood of violence.

When drugs plus mental health issues are involved...sad to say, likely a person who needed help and his hometeacher was doing what he could.

Just got a push survey on gun control.  Love they are targeting Mormons.

What is needed is better mental health laws and support, imo..

Edited July 23, 2018 by Calm

[ksfisher]

4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's a long-winded way of saying, I hope the church makes a statement of policy that would keep wards/stakes from coming up with their own safety plans. I don't want a "gun-free" zone sticker on the front windows of the church, but I also don't want non-professional gun enthusiasts tasked with protecting me and my family

Something like this?

Firearms Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law.   https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies?lang=eng#21.2.4   As you've stated, I don't want anyone other than a trained law enforcement professional carrying a gun at my ward either.

Edited July 23, 2018 by ksfisher

[strappinglad]

We in Canada just had a mass shooting in Toronto. 15 shot, 2 dead, plus gunman dead. He just walked down a busy street and randomly shot people ages 10-60. The kneejerk reaction, mayor says no one in Toronto needs a gun. Of course , this comes about 3 months after a van ran over and killed about a dozen people. I guess no one in Toronto needs a van either. Stupidity has no bounds.

[USU78]

53 minutes ago, Calm said:

Just got a push survey on gun control.  Love they are targeting Mormons.

Monstrous.

[mnn727]

14 hours ago, Unaffiliated said:

Should we be allowed to bring concealed handguns to church for protection?

I just went through an active shooter class at work. The problem with concealed carry is that when the cops do come you need to make sure the gun is put away as they're going to "take out" anyone with a gun.

[HappyJackWagon]

57 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Something like this?

Firearms Churches are dedicated for the worship of God and as havens from the cares and concerns of the world. The carrying of lethal weapons, concealed or otherwise, within their walls is inappropriate except as required by officers of the law.   https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/selected-church-policies?lang=eng#21.2.4   As you've stated, I don't want anyone other than a trained law enforcement professional carrying a gun at my ward either.

Exactly, but how many people know this policy. I feel like bringing a little attention to it would be a good thing. I'm very aware of bishops who know the policy but choose not to share or enforce it. While I was on the HC a bishop in a ward where I was assigned encouraged conceal carry. When I brought it up to the SP he didn't seem terribly concerned and nothing changed in that ward.

They all had good intentions but didn't see the practical necessity of informing or upholding that policy. After an event like the shooting on Sunday, it seems a restatement would be useful.

[juliann]

4 hours ago, poptart said:

   Maybe team up with someone like Catholic Charities and actually do something to combat urban poverty, family disfunction and a lot of the misery we see in the USA nowadays?  The homeless working families you see in places like Seattle, Portland and a lot of California?  The holier than thou double standard aka I'm not perfect just forgiven attitude makes religious people an easy group to hate and in our current society no ones going to care how much you suffer.

I have yet to find a person who criticizes humanitarian services that knows the first thing about what is being done. First, the church works through volunteers. Are you signing up? Cause guess what, if you are real good at it you can even get new programs going. And yes! They do work with other agencies.  You could do something like this:

My sister and BIL went on a humanitarian mission to Fiji because of rampant diabetes there. They discovered that removing limbs was the first line of defense and that they were sawed of instead of doing skin flaps so it would heal. They also didn't have prosethetics. So he got together with a University of Utah guy who created a really cheap one and the church is buying them and sending them along with wheelchairs. They get whatever they ask for. Now they are going to spend 2 months a year there to keep it going. They just got back from a visit where they witnessed the first flap amputation in Fiji after my BIL trained them. 

I'm only trying to make the point that it is better to err on the side of caution when you criticize. And also realize that the church doesn't add the cost of what these two people would cost if hired when they declare what is spent on humanitarian services. 

 

[poptart]

9 minutes ago, juliann said:

I have yet to find a person who criticizes humanitarian services that knows the first thing about what is being done. First, the church works through volunteers. Are you signing up? Cause guess what, if you are real good at it you can even get new programs going. And yes! They do work with other agencies.  You could do something like this:

My sister and BIL went on a humanitarian mission to Fiji because of rampant diabetes there. They discovered that removing limbs was the first line of defense and that they were sawed of instead of doing skin flaps so it would heal. They also didn't have prosethetics. So he got together with a University of Utah guy who created a really cheap one and the church is buying them and sending them along with wheelchairs. They get whatever they ask for. Now they are going to spend 2 months a year there to keep it going. They just got back from a visit where they witnessed the first flap amputation in Fiji after my BIL trained them. 

I'm only trying to make the point that it is better to err on the side of caution when you criticize. And also realize that the church doesn't add the cost of what these two people would cost if hired when they declare what is spent on humanitarian services. 

 

Ok, you caught my interest.  I'm in the process of rebooting my career, once i'm settled and moms in a good spot, I wanted to help out on the reservations in the pacific northest, esp. Canada and Alaska.  I've always had a soft spot for natives and being im part polynesian, well big suprise lol.  Medical services are tough to get up there and i'm going back to school for my RN, partially career and more so to take care of mom.  We had a bad enough life due to my drunk, violent mean father, I'm making sure the rest of her life is pleasant. 

[juliann]

5 minutes ago, poptart said:

Ok, you caught my interest.  I'm in the process of rebooting my career, once i'm settled and moms in a good spot, I wanted to help out on the reservations in the pacific northest, esp. Canada and Alaska.  I've always had a soft spot for natives and being im part polynesian, well big suprise lol.  Medical services are tough to get up there and i'm going back to school for my RN, partially career and more so to take care of mom.  We had a bad enough life due to my drunk, violent mean father, I'm making sure the rest of her life is pleasant. 

That's awesome! 

[poptart]

5 minutes ago, juliann said:

That's awesome! 

The Inuit have issues, it's sad.