Stargazer Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 On 7/27/2018 at 5:48 PM, jkwilliams said: Earlier in the thread, the suggestion was made that mass shooters avoid areas where there are likely to be armed people, suggesting that the possible presence of guns can be a deterrent. That's what I was responding to. The guy who opened fire at the cinema in Colorado where that Batman movie was playing? He came clad in body armor, apparently because he had considered the possibility of return fire -- this was in Colorado, a CCW state, so it seems a surety that it didn't deter him. But just because it didn't deter this particular guy, doesn't mean that it wouldn't deter some other guy. The thing about the Colorado shooting that bothered me (aside from the shooting itself) was that nobody was carrying. In that huge crowd, nobody with a CCW who was exercising the privilege? Or someone was carrying, and exercised the better part of valor option. I wouldn't judge someone who decided the target was not worth the risk, that's their lookout, but ... I didn't (and still don't) go to the movies very often, but back when I did, in Washington state, I was invariably armed. Just in case. Here in the UK I don't have that option. Here, if you get attacked, call 999 of course, but be sure you don't talk too rudely to your attacker or they might charge you with a crime. 1
Stargazer Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 On 7/27/2018 at 5:48 PM, jkwilliams said: Earlier in the thread, the suggestion was made that mass shooters avoid areas where there are likely to be armed people, suggesting that the possible presence of guns can be a deterrent. That's what I was responding to. Just to add to what I wrote above, deterrence may fail, and in that event, someone who is armed might very well put a stop to further bloodshed. There was a Texas church shooting recently where exactly that occurred (although the good guy wasn't at church at the time but was next door to it when the shooting occurred).
Anijen Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 1 minute ago, Stargazer said: The guy who opened fire at the cinema in Colorado where that Batman movie was playing? He came clad in body armor, apparently because he had considered the possibility of return fire -- this was in Colorado, a CCW state, so it seems a surety that it didn't deter him. But just because it didn't deter this particular guy, doesn't mean that it wouldn't deter some other guy. The thing about the Colorado shooting that bothered me (aside from the shooting itself) was that nobody was carrying. In that huge crowd, nobody with a CCW who was exercising the privilege? Or someone was carrying, and exercised the better part of valor option. I wouldn't judge someone who decided the target was not worth the risk, that's their lookout, but ... I didn't (and still don't) go to the movies very often, but back when I did, in Washington state, I was invariably armed. Just in case. Here in the UK I don't have that option. Here, if you get attacked, call 999 of course, but be sure you don't talk too rudely to your attacker or they might charge you with a crime. Clarification: (1) "Colorado, a CCW state," All states are CCW states. However, each state will regulate how, when, where, they can carry. They also regulate if training is or is not required (it is here in Nebraska). Colorado happens to be a very regulated gun control state (not as much as California, but it is still). Additionally, the city of Denver has stricter gun control than the rest of the state, (like Chicago has very strict gun control laws more so than the state they are in). (2) nobody was carrying Nobody was carrying because that particular theatre did not allow any guns on their premises (concealed or open carry).
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stargazer said: Ummm. Not necessarily. A Washington state concealed carry permit entails absolutely no training whatsoever. It only indicates that they ran a background check on you and found nothing to indicate that you were legally unqualified. And interestingly, not having mandatory training doesn't seem to have caused any trouble. Oregon requires training. I've taken it. It's pathetic. Again, Oregon CCP holders don't seem to be any more problem than Washington's. That's the idea. Create doubt. I seem to recall that prison interviews indicate that crims prefer to meet armed police than armed civilians in their professional activities. Likely because the civies are more likely to open fire. I know it’s required in Utah, because I have a very close acquaintance who received his cc permit not long ago. I guess I assumed it was a federal requirement. I think background checks are more important than training, because they are apt to screen out those with a background of mental illness or criminal behavior. Edited July 29, 2018 by Scott Lloyd 1
Anijen Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I know it’s required in Utah, because I have a very close acquaintance who received his cc permit not long ago. I guess I assumed it was a federal requirement. I think background checks are more important than training, because they are apt to creep out those with a background of mental illness or criminal behavior. Background checks are a requirement in every single state, not only to get a CCP, but also just to purchase a firearm from any dealer or store (e.g. Sheels or Cabellas). Training is an additional requirement but is decided upon by each state, Nebraska you need two days of training (16 hours). Utah has probably the most popular and is definitely the most accepted permit in other states (I believe a Utah permit is allowed in 40 states now). The reason Utah is the most accepted CCP in other states is because, Utah will run a back ground check on a continuous basis for each CCP holder (even out-of-state). My name has been going through the background check at least once a month for the last 15 years (I live in Nebraska). I like the background checks, but I also believe training should be up there in importance. A gun is not that good if you are not trained with it and do not know how to use it... Edited July 29, 2018 by Anijen 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 27 minutes ago, Anijen said: Background checks are a requirement in every single state, not only to get a CCP, but also just to purchase a firearm from any dealer or store (e.g. Sheels or Cabellas). Training is an additional requirement but is decided upon by each state, Nebraska you need two days of training (16 hours). Utah has probably the most popular and is definitely the most accepted permit in other states (I believe a Utah permit is allowed in 40 states now). The reason Utah is the most accepted CCP in other states is because, Utah will run a back ground check on a continuous basis for each CCP holder (even out-of-state). My name has been going through the background check at least once a month for the last 15 years (I live in Nebraska). I like the background checks, but I also believe training should be up there in importance. A gun is not that good if you are not trained with it and do not know how to use it... The auto-correct sabotaged me. I meant to say “screen out,” not “creep out.” 2
Anijen Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said: The auto-correct sabotaged me. I meant to say “screen out,” not “creep out.” been there brother.... so many times, especially when using my phone
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Anijen said: Background checks are a requirement in every single state, not only to get a CCP, but also just to purchase a firearm from any dealer or store (e.g. Sheels or Cabellas). Training is an additional requirement but is decided upon by each state, Nebraska you need two days of training (16 hours). Utah has probably the most popular and is definitely the most accepted permit in other states (I believe a Utah permit is allowed in 40 states now). The reason Utah is the most accepted CCP in other states is because, Utah will run a back ground check on a continuous basis for each CCP holder (even out-of-state). My name has been going through the background check at least once a month for the last 15 years (I live in Nebraska). I like the background checks, but I also believe training should be up there in importance. A gun is not that good if you are not trained with it and do not know how to use it... Would you feel competent in confronting an assailant in an active-shooter situation? Edited July 29, 2018 by Scott Lloyd
strappinglad Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) Gun training should be consistent and constant. Even then, there are stories of LEOS whose training should be better than most, firing many shots during an incident and hitting no one. Adrenalin wrecks havoc with accurate shooting. Of course there is the other side of the coin. Perp X aims a cell phone at officers and receives 30 direct hits. Edited July 29, 2018 by strappinglad 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 49 minutes ago, strappinglad said: Gun training should be consistent and constant. Even then, there are stories of LEOS whose training should be better than most, firing many shots during an incident and hitting no one. Adrenalin wrecks havoc with accurate shooting. Of course there is the other side of the coin. Prep X aims a cell phone at officers and receives 30 direct hits. “Prep X”? Is that like Preparation H? Just kidding. I’m guessing you meant “Perp X” as in Perpetrator X.
strappinglad Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: “Prep X”? Is that like Preparation H? Just kidding. I’m guessing you meant “Perp X” as in Perpetrator X It's either dyslexia or fat fingers .. Fixed it. Edited July 29, 2018 by strappinglad
Anijen Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Would you feel competent in confronting an assailant in an active-shooter situation? I hope never to have that choice. Honestly, I have never been in a situation like that. This is why practice, practice, and more practice will help. I am 90% sure I would use deadly force if the attacker was also using deadly force, especially if it were against my family. I'd like to say 100%, but I just can't say with absolution. 2
Calm Posted July 29, 2018 Posted July 29, 2018 6 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: Would that be a shalaylee? Learning from my experience, you might be surprised by what you are capable of doing in a threatening situation. I have no military experience and would not compare a school lockdown with war, but my son Bellicosso is a combat veteran and has talked a little bit about this human reaction to threat. Looks a lot like this, but is actual wood....gorgeous colors. https://www.chkadels.com/ProductDetail.aspx?itemno=36 UC2970&sourcecode=GOCHPL&gclid=CjwKCAjwy_XaBRAWEiwApfjKHu1uEmGSmC7m62Wt7PZoxdeEwEG8bku3FoGG3vxhRD_iXXXFbykwYRoC_t0QAvD_BwE My husband brings home walking sticks when he can from where he travels. Plus I pick up interesting ones I run into every now and then. Last two we got was an antique dragon headed cane from Thailand my sister in law found for us (too off balance for a fight) and a long Masai walking stick from Kenya that got lost in the transition but was eventually tracked down and delivered to us at 10 PM...long day for that driver. I need to find a good way of displaying them besides an umbrella stand. Something that sets off color and texture while pulling together the varied styles. It is possible it is indecision having too many options that freezes me in verbal confrontations and physical ones that are clear cut crisis, I might be able to respond to, especially if someone else was involved and I could focus on them...hopefully I will never need to find out. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 5 hours ago, Calm said: Looks a lot like this, but is actual wood....gorgeous colors. https://www.chkadels.com/ProductDetail.aspx?itemno=36 UC2970&sourcecode=GOCHPL&gclid=CjwKCAjwy_XaBRAWEiwApfjKHu1uEmGSmC7m62Wt7PZoxdeEwEG8bku3FoGG3vxhRD_iXXXFbykwYRoC_t0QAvD_BwE My husband brings home walking sticks when he can from where he travels. Plus I pick up interesting ones I run into every now and then. Last two we got was an antique dragon headed cane from Thailand my sister in law found for us (too off balance for a fight) and a long Masai walking stick from Kenya that got lost in the transition but was eventually tracked down and delivered to us at 10 PM...long day for that driver. I need to find a good way of displaying them besides an umbrella stand. Something that sets off color and texture while pulling together the varied styles. It is possible it is indecision having too many options that freezes me in verbal confrontations and physical ones that are clear cut crisis, I might be able to respond to, especially if someone else was involved and I could focus on them...hopefully I will never need to find out. Collecting walking sticks, what an interesting hobby.
Stargazer Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 16 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Would you feel competent in confronting an assailant in an active-shooter situation? Feeling competent or not, nobody knows how they're going to handle themselves in the actual event, until the event occurs, regardless of the weapon (or no weapon). I spent 8 years in the US Army, and was an expert rifle marksman, expert grenade thrower, and had been drilled in close combat tactics. I definitely knew which end of the rifle the bullet emerged from. But I was never called upon to use these skills in reality (thank goodness) and though I could say I felt competent, I had no idea if I would do well if ever called upon.
Stargazer Posted July 30, 2018 Posted July 30, 2018 17 hours ago, Anijen said: Clarification: (1) "Colorado, a CCW state," All states are CCW states. However, each state will regulate how, when, where, they can carry. They also regulate if training is or is not required (it is here in Nebraska). Colorado happens to be a very regulated gun control state (not as much as California, but it is still). Additionally, the city of Denver has stricter gun control than the rest of the state, (like Chicago has very strict gun control laws more so than the state they are in). It turns out that you're right! I hadn't know that all states are CCW states. But there's a world of difference between "shall issue" and "may issue". Here's a map: Some of those "may issue" places are effectively "mostly not issue", as you point out. 17 hours ago, Anijen said: (2) nobody was carrying Nobody was carrying because that particular theatre did not allow any guns on their premises (concealed or open carry). Ah ha. The classic "gun free zone". Really works, doesn't it? To make it really "gun free" they would have to run all customers through a metal detector. And then again, the guy that did the shooting didn't come through the normal entrance. And how many customers would willingly go through the botheration of a security screen with all that implies? I usually wait for a film to come out on DVD these days. Having to go through such a screen would remove my last incentive for attending a theatre. An interesting article I found, from the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, Volume 13, Number 2, Summer 2008. The author, Dr. Jacob Deakins, is responding to a piece by a Dr. Windermute that appeared in the New England Journal of Medicine. Dr. Deakins writes: "Wintermute focuses on recent shootings in our public places—neglecting to mention that most of these occurred in “gun free” zones, effectively eliminating any chance of resistance to thwart the intended mayhem. What more could someone bent on this type of act hope for?" "Take the example of the Dec 5, 2007 Omaha mall shooting. The “gun free” zone even applied to the mall security guards, so there was no one to meet force with force, perhaps preventing further death. In the days that followed there were multiple Internet and blog postings by patrons of this mall. One such anonymous poster said:" "I am not allowed to carry a gun at all in Westroads Mall. If the laws did not oppress my rights … I certainly would have had it in the mall. Honestly, and as God as my witness, when I saw him shooting and as I watched for a few seconds trying to figure out what he was going to do and what I should do, the thought that went through my head was, “If I had a gun, I have a perfect shot.” "The next public shooting occurred on Dec 9 in Colorado.Aman entered the Youth With A Mission training center and killed two, wounding two others. Several hours later he went to New Life Church in Colorado Springs. He murdered two sisters at the entrance, and was preparing to enter the building and campus, which was occupied by thousands at the time. He was met, however, by a member of the church’s volunteer security force, Jeanne Assam, a private citizen who was armed with her handgun. She fired while being fired upon, and once the murderer was wounded he took his own life, likely sparing numerous other innocent lives." 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 On 7/29/2018 at 2:25 PM, Scott Lloyd said: The auto-correct sabotaged me. I meant to say “screen out,” not “creep out.” Actually, Scott, I'm pretty sure you creep out a fair number of people on a pretty regular basis, but not to worry: I still think you're a nice guy. 1
Jeanne Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 50 minutes ago, Maestrophil said: Any news on a motive? This is the biggest question right here..I would really like to know what was in this guys head and the whys...it will never make sense..but then sense has nothing to do with trying to understand. This has been so crazy and sad.
Amulek Posted July 31, 2018 Posted July 31, 2018 59 minutes ago, Maestrophil said: Any news on a motive? Not that I am aware of. The court has ordered a mental health evaluation at the request of his public defender (link), but nothing new has been released in terms of motive so far as I can tell. Might not be any further info until the case goes to trial.
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