FunOnlineMan Posted July 17, 2018 Author Posted July 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, USU78 said: That's because you don't value the invitation to covenant. When was I invited? Was it by ambiguous missive as well?
USU78 Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 Just now, FunOnlineMan said: When was I invited? Was it by ambiguous missive as well? You reject the invitation, don't you, so what difference does it make how it was delivered? 1
Storm Rider Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: Great question. I’m not sure it’s my place to answer, since I’m not a believer, but I started this jalopy thread, so there’s nowhere for me to hide, I guess. I think in this light, it’s to perfectly prepare children for adulthood. I think the answer is vital to comprehending the question and to identify its bias. Some parents have a very distinct manner is raising children to be adults while another has a conflicting method. Which is the correct method? Within LDS theology, God's objective is to create a process that we might become like him. Not simply by waving the magical wand and kaboom, you are a god, but one that teaches and forms a change of heart; one that years for holiness and that seeks to become like him. Though it is true it is through his grace that we can truly become like him there is this requirement of desire. Now, if we are going to try and identify what is and what is not the best method of mortal parenting....then that is the rabbit hole too far. Humans are not good at finding agreement unless it is an agreement to disagree. 2
Maidservant Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: If I recall correctly, I think the sensitive issue you’ve raised here is that moms just don’t get mentioned enough, right? Nope. What I meant is that the heavenly model--that we see, anyway--involves father's taking care of their kids. Meaning, that is what heavenly Father does, yea? 😊 Quote The thing about the heavenly parenting model, is that it’s beyond parenting with love and logic, it’s beyond exploratory learning. It’s a complete distancing of yourself from the equation to make sure you don’t ruin the children. So, you teach the one kid using 90% modeling, then that kid writes down a confusing story about a guy getting eaten by a whale or something. I was thinking more along the lines of Christ and his modeling. And I was also saying that parents always model who they are. Quote So should I just scrap the notion that god is a usable example of a father then? Because placing his example so far out of reach as to make it unattainable would also make it useless. And I'm getting about here that you weren't actually asking about parenting or a gospel question (my bad--I actually thought you wanted parenting ideas! wow, way off.), but that you already feel betrayed and abandoned by God or by the God you understand, and that your current conclusion is that he sucks as a parent. Okay. THAT'S a different conversation. One that starts like this, at least for me: I, too, feel abandoned and betrayed by God. Jesus did too, if I recall. In the New Testament: "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?" Hurts, yea? I also think that my experience of God is not parental, and I wonder why that appellation (Father) is involved. So I'm still on a journey to understand all that. Some of what I think I understand brings me closer to understand that fatherhood; some of what I am learning leads me in other very interesting personal revelations that may have very little to do with fatherhood per se. The way that you are talking is not of a person who has actual questions (although that may be in there somewhere), but of someone who already has answers and is lashing out. I think if I was hurt that deeply, I would lash out too. As Neale Donald Walsch in his book Conversations With God: "All action [is the] reaction [of] defense against loss. You seek to defend yourself against the loss of God." By the way . . . in coming to earth . . . we aren't babies. It's more like going to college. This is the advanced course. Edited July 17, 2018 by Maidservant 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 4 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: You tell them these insane ideas yourself. You don’t tell the neighbor kid to tell them or pick your favorite son to show them by perfect example a life without Xbox. You may tell the neighbour kid something if your own child just isn't listening. I've certainly been in that situation many times, including as Young Men president. 'Hamba, my son doesn't seem to listen to me. At all. But he seems to listen to you, at least sometimes. Could you please help him to understand _____?' Other times, I've been the child who never heard my mum's voice until a brother said, 'Mate, Mum is calling you'. Quote God’s preferred method of communication isn’t enough to sustain a meaningful relationship. I find that it is. Completely. Edited July 17, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 2
Robert F. Smith Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 8 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: I finally made it to posting strength. Hello. Anyway… •God is our perfect parent in heaven. A perfect parent should exemplify only perfect parental attributes. If I pattern my parenting as closely after the heavenly parenting model as I possibly can, I should expect to end up as close to being the perfect parent as I possibly can. If I were to even attempt to follow the heavenly parenting model, what would it look like? And would you prescribe this as a viable parenting system? In loco parentis𐐛 A Latin term meaning "in [the] place of a parent" or "instead of a parent." Refers to the legal responsibility of some person or organization to perform some of the functions or responsibilities of a parent. 𐐎𐐸𐐪𐐻 𐐨𐑅 𐐻𐐸𐐩 𐑅𐐻𐐪𐐻𐐭𐑅 𐐬𐑁 𐐬𐐭𐑉 𐐩𐐪𐑉𐐻𐐸𐑊𐐷 𐐹𐐪𐐩𐑌𐐻𐑅, 𐐪𐑌𐐼 𐐶𐐸𐐪𐐻 𐐬𐑁 𐐬𐐭𐑉 𐐸𐐩𐐪𐑂𐐩𐑌𐑊𐐷 𐐹𐐪𐑉𐐩𐑌𐑅?
strappinglad Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 Some think that we are spirit ' children ' . I think we have been around a long time as spirits and know quite a bit. We have, however, spent quite a bit of time in Dad's house and a good neighborhood. In order to progress we needed to get out into the big bad world. During my mission ( well before the electronic tsunami) , my communication with my parents was a letter every couple of weeks and a call on mother's day. This life is a human experience for a spiritual being. It's like a mission in that communication can be limited on purpose. Even Christ, who was in continuous contact with the Father, reached a point in which He felt alone and forsaken . Again, we are not spiritual babies. We needed to and WANTED to " leave the nest " Was there no other way? Apparently not.
Calm Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Maidservant said: By the way . . . in coming to earth . . . we aren't babies. It's more like going to college. This is the advanced course. My speculation is God hides himself from us to give us a chance to decide who we want to be outside of his shadow, like parents who accept that it is best for their child to go to a college out of state instead of the local community college so they can stay at home and be fed and clothed and cared for like the rest of their childhood. The distance allows their child to make choices without aleays first wondering "is this what Dad and Mom would want me to do? Will I get in trouble if I make this choice? Will I get rewarded?" Away from home, we can all decide "is this what I want for me? Is this what is most important to me?" Not sure so much if it is college or preschool though. Edited July 17, 2018 by Calm 2
Bernard Gui Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 7 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: 7 hours ago, Storm Rider said: What do you think the objective is of "perfect" parenting? Great question. I’m not sure it’s my place to answer, since I’m not a believer, but I started this jalopy thread, so there’s nowhere for me to hide, I guess. I think in this light, it’s to perfectly prepare children for adulthood. A noble goal, but good luck with that one. What is adulthood? How does one become an adult? Do the kids have any choice in the matter? What if they don’t want to accept your idea of adulthood or reject the path you recommend to them? How does one know when he has become an adult? Seems to me we would have to know the answers to questions like these before we could pass judgement on the worth of God’s parenting. Also, we should keep in mind that we have very little to do with God the Father in this life because..... https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/04/the-father-and-the-son?lang=eng It would probably be more fruitful to look to Jesus as our parental exemplar since he is our Father, too, and the one with which we almost exclusively respond. There’s plenty of stuff to look at there. We could start with the notion of loving our children so much that we would be willing to give our life for them. 4
bluebell Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 11 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: Sorry, I replied to this earlier, but I think I tried to get too fancy with the quote boxes, because I don’t see that it posted anywhere. Unless this lost rejoinder surfaces, we can only assume it was an elegant treatise about something very sophisticated. Anyway, I don’t see how we can model after him in these attributes you describe. I don’t see these parenting attributes in the god of Israel. How much personal experience do you have with Him? These are the attributes I see in His parenting of me. 2
HappyJackWagon Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 17 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: I finally made it to posting strength. Hello. Anyway… •God is our perfect parent in heaven. A perfect parent should exemplify only perfect parental attributes. If I pattern my parenting as closely after the heavenly parenting model as I possibly can, I should expect to end up as close to being the perfect parent as I possibly can. If I were to even attempt to follow the heavenly parenting model, what would it look like? And would you prescribe this as a viable parenting system? If you follow that model you should do the following: 1- ship your kids out of country to boarding school, or maybe just an empty field, in the most remote area of the planet you can find. 2- Do not communicate directly with you child, even if they call, or write begging for help 3- Send a 90 year old man to occasionally tell them what you would like them to know and do The end. Piece of cake. But be sure to emphasize that if they ever want to see you again, they must earn your acceptance through personal worthiness Edited July 17, 2018 by HappyJackWagon 1
Kenngo1969 Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 16 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: ... I am maybe making the examples too absurd, but I hope you can see what I’m getting at. ... Yes, you are, Fungi, and no, I have no idea what you're getting at. Welp, on to the next thread! 1
Bernard Gui Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said: If you follow that model you should do the following: 1- ship your kids out of country to boarding school, or maybe just an empty field, in the most remote area of the planet you can find. 2- Do not communicate directly with you child, even if they call, or write begging for help 3- Send a 90 year old man to occasionally tell them what you would like them to know and do The end. Piece of cake. But be sure to emphasize that if they ever want to see you again, they must earn your acceptance through personal worthiness Quote Nobody loves me, but my mother, And she could be jivin` too. Hey! Nobody loves me, but my mother, And she could be jivin` too. Quote It's a hard-knock life for usIt's a hard-knock life for us 'Stead of treated We get tricked 'Stead of kisses We get kicked It's the hard-knock life Don't if feel like the wind is always howl'n? Don't it seem like there's never any light!Once a day, don't you wanna throw the towel in? It's easier than puttin' up a fight No one's there when your dreams at night get creepyNo one cares if you grow or if you shrink Empty belly lifeRotten smelly lifeFull of sorrow lifeNo tomorrow life Santa Claus we never see Santa Claus, what's that? Who's he? No one cares for you a smidge When you're God’s kid It's the hard-knock life Edited July 17, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1
mfbukowski Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said: 1- ship your kids out of country to boarding school, or maybe just an empty field, in the most remote area of the planet you can find. Ah, Utah! I get it now! I would prefer boarding school. But of course he gives us a red telephone hidden under a rock that nobody looks for instead. I mean it really couldn't be that EZ could it? The test is finding the red telephone. Then once you find it you have a constant companion. Keep looking guys! Edited July 17, 2018 by mfbukowski
HappyJackWagon Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Ah, Utah! I get it now! I would prefer boarding school. But of course he gives us a red telephone hidden under a rock that nobody looks for instead. I mean it really couldn't be that EZ could it? The test is finding the red telephone. And instead of hearing a voice on the other end of the line you will be left to interpret your feelings to understand what you think God might be telling you. Actual, clear communication would be far too easy. Even the emissary he sends to communicate will do so in vague ways on a fairly infrequent basis, and it won't really be to you specifically, it will be to everyone, via satelite
FunOnlineMan Posted July 17, 2018 Author Posted July 17, 2018 13 hours ago, USU78 said: You reject the invitation, don't you, so what difference does it make how it was delivered? How can I reject it? I never received it.
Bernard Gui Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 11 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: How can I reject it? I never received it. That could be true since we don’t do altar calls in the LDS Church. Maybe we should start. 2
Bernard Gui Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 26 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said: And instead of hearing a voice on the other end of the line you will be left to interpret your feelings to understand what you think God might be telling you. Actual, clear communication would be far too easy. Even the emissary he sends to communicate will do so in vague ways on a fairly infrequent basis, and it won't really be to you specifically, it will be to everyone, via satelite Has this been your experience with prayer and scripture reading? There’s not just one emissary. Edited July 17, 2018 by Bernard Gui
pogi Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: So should I just scrap the notion that god is a usable example of a father then? Because placing his example so far out of reach as to make it unattainable would also make it useless. Right, I would say scrap it. The problem is, which version of God are you going to emulate? Everybody views God differently, and trying to emulate his example from scriptures can be a bad idea. I don't know if you have read the old-testament, but a literalist trying to emulate the example of God in relation to his children would be disastrous! God sees the BIG picture, and he sees the heart of man. We don't. Edited July 17, 2018 by pogi 1
FunOnlineMan Posted July 17, 2018 Author Posted July 17, 2018 14 hours ago, Maidservant said: And I'm getting about here that you weren't actually asking about parenting or a gospel question (my bad--I actually thought you wanted parenting ideas! wow, way off.), but that you already feel betrayed and abandoned by God or by the God you understand, and that your current conclusion is that he sucks as a parent. Okay. THAT'S a different conversation. One that starts like this, at least for me: I, too, feel abandoned and betrayed by God. Jesus did too, if I recall. In the New Testament: "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?" Hurts, yea? I also think that my experience of God is not parental, and I wonder why that appellation (Father) is involved. So I'm still on a journey to understand all that. Some of what I think I understand brings me closer to understand that fatherhood; some of what I am learning leads me in other very interesting personal revelations that may have very little to do with fatherhood per se. The way that you are talking is not of a person who has actual questions (although that may be in there somewhere), but of someone who already has answers and is lashing out. I think if I was hurt that deeply, I would lash out too. As Neale Donald Walsch in his book Conversations With God: "All action [is the] reaction [of] defense against loss. You seek to defend yourself against the loss of God." By the way . . . in coming to earth . . . we aren't babies. It's more like going to college. This is the advanced course. Hi, I would never turn down free parenting advice. You have the point now. I think he sucks as a parent. That’s harsh language to use about the deity of the group, though, so I sort of came at it from this angle. When I set this whole thing out for people I often get accused of being bitter against god or hurt or whatever. I get asked how my relationship with my own father is, etc., and I get why. But is that to say my criticisms against god as a parent are blurred by the direct result of his parenting? If so, that doesn’t make my assertions on what is evident about our father/son relationship weaker or “lashing out.” I’m saying, as Cinepro states above, that god sucks so bad as a parent, a vast number of his children don’t even think he exists. There are other vast numbers of guys in pajama pants and fedoras who think believing in him is a sign of mental disorders or a lack of intelligence. We don’t even know in which direction to lash. A billion or so people would probably say east, so maybe over there. The reason that god is referred to as a father is because the Bible says so, right? I know I’m not on one of those message boards, but the reason we even conceive of god as a father is because god told somebody else to leave us a note. That’s not even how good roommates treat each other, and that’s my whole gripe, for the purposes of this online discussion board. As for the Walsch quote, it presupposes a belief in god, which has not been shown to be a necessary part of human existence. And I plan to give my kids big embarrassing hugs and kisses when I drop them off for college and bother them with my attention and farty old dad advice as much as possible well into their own fart dad old age if possible, because I love them. 3 hours ago, bluebell said: How much personal experience do you have with Him? These are the attributes I see in His parenting of me. None. That’s the whole angle here. I see no evidence of him in my life. Not even anecdotal. I don’t see evidence of him in the lives of my family and friends who I know believe strongly in him either. So I take the position that he doesn’t exist. If he did exist as presented in Judeo-Christian models, he’d be a terrible father. 9 hours ago, Bernard Gui said: A noble goal, but good luck with that one. What is adulthood? How does one become an adult? Do the kids have any choice in the matter? What if they don’t want to accept your idea of adulthood or reject the path you recommend to them? How does one know when he has become an adult? Seems to me we would have to know the answers to questions like these before we could pass judgement on the worth of God’s parenting. Also, we should keep in mind that we have very little to do with God the Father in this life because..... https://www.lds.org/ensign/2002/04/the-father-and-the-son?lang=eng It would probably be more fruitful to look to Jesus as our parental exemplar since he is our Father, too, and the one with which we almost exclusively respond. There’s plenty of stuff to look at there. We could start with the notion of loving our children so much that we would be willing to give our life for them. It is a noble goal, yes. Perfect anything would realistically take more than luck. To your questions, these are hypothetical, yes? And do I understand you correctly here, that we shouldn’t criticize god’s worth as a father because we don’t fully understand the journey we’re on? I don’t think him using his “beloved” son as a stand in makes him any less of an indifferent father. 1 hour ago, HappyJackWagon said: And instead of hearing a voice on the other end of the line you will be left to interpret your feelings to understand what you think God might be telling you. Actual, clear communication would be far too easy. Even the emissary he sends to communicate will do so in vague ways on a fairly infrequent basis, and it won't really be to you specifically, it will be to everyone, via satelite I see it more of the way you find out what dad wants is you get out the stack of jumbled papers that you heard he dictated, an old cook book, and a bunch of letters from one of your cousins to people you don’t know. That or bow your head and guess.
FunOnlineMan Posted July 17, 2018 Author Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: That could be true since we don’t do altar calls in the LDS Church. Maybe we should start. Let me know how it goes. 13 minutes ago, pogi said: Right, I would say scrap it. The problem is, which version of God are you going to emulate? Everybody views God differently, and trying to emulate his example from scriptures can be a bad idea. I don't know if you have read the old-testament, but a literalist trying to emulate the example of God in relation to his children would be disastrous! God sees the BIG picture, and he sees the heart of man. We don't. That’s the point, though. My siblings all view my father differently, but we can all agree that he’s that one tall guy with a mustache. God’s apparent influence on earth has certainly left more confusion than, to me, is reconcilable, but I’m just focusing this thread toward those people who do subscribe to Dear Heavenly Father.
FunOnlineMan Posted July 17, 2018 Author Posted July 17, 2018 2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said: Yes, you are, Fungi, and no, I have no idea what you're getting at. Welp, on to the next thread! I can’t imagine the endorphin rush you must have had right before you hit send on this one. 1
FunOnlineMan Posted July 17, 2018 Author Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, mfbukowski said: Ah, Utah! I get it now! I would prefer boarding school. But of course he gives us a red telephone hidden under a rock that nobody looks for instead. I mean it really couldn't be that EZ could it? The test is finding the red telephone. Then once you find it you have a constant companion. Keep looking guys! I’m going to need to hire interns to cover all my posting workload on here. So, to you, it’s all good, because dad hid a phone out here somewhere, and we just have to know about that first?
Hamba Tuhan Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 3 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said: Do not communicate directly with you child, even if they call, or write begging for help That hasn’t been my experience. At all.
FunOnlineMan Posted July 17, 2018 Author Posted July 17, 2018 2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: That hasn’t been my experience. At all. You’ve had conversations with god?
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