The Problem of Indifference

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

And instead of hearing a voice on the other end of the line you will be left to interpret your feelings to understand what you think God might be telling you.

Actual, clear communication would be far too easy. Even the emissary he sends to communicate will do so in vague ways on a fairly infrequent basis, and it won't really be to you specifically, it will be to everyone, via satelite

I wouldn't know it's pretty clear to me.

[Calm]

Fun,

No problem and thank you as well, I would have said something before, but I did it without really thinking of it when I used it and instead I typically just cut and paste what I want because deleting is a hassle on my iPad (keeps dropping "selected" so I have to manually backspace).

Now that you made me consciously think about it and plan how to efficiently use it, I will be making this my primary method.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Calm

[bluebell]

4 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

None. That’s the whole angle here. I see no evidence of him in my life. Not even anecdotal. I don’t see evidence of him in the lives of my family and friends who I know believe strongly in him either. So I take the position that he doesn’t exist. If he did exist as presented in Judeo-Christian models, he’d be a terrible father. 

What sincere effort have you put in to seeing Him in your life?

[Hamba Tuhan]

4 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

You understand that’s rare, though, right?

Not in my experience. In fact, it’s a dominant feature in the lives of the Saints I know best. 

[FunOnlineMan]

22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

What sincere effort have you put in to seeing Him in your life?

Fervent study and prayer. Living the commandments. Serving in his name. 

[FunOnlineMan]

16 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Not in my experience. In fact, it’s a dominant feature in the lives of the Saints I know best. 

Then maybe you can elaborate on what you mean by direct communication. I don’t think you and he are using that term in the same way. 

[mfbukowski]

40 minutes ago, Calm said:

Fun,

No problem and thank you as well, I would have said something before, but I did it without really thinking of it when I used it and instead I typically just cut and paste what I want because deleting is a hassle on my iPad (keeps dropping "selected" so I have to manually backspace).

Now that you made me consciously think about it and plan how to efficiently use it, I will be making this my primary method.

Sounds interesting- I wish I knew what you were talking about. 

 

[FunOnlineMan]

Just now, mfbukowski said:

Sounds interesting- I wish I knew what you were talking about. 

 

I wouldn’t wish this on anyone. 

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

You’ve had conversations with god?

Put me on  the list of wackos too.  I mock back. 

 

[FunOnlineMan]

17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Put me on  the list of wackos too.  I mock back. 

 

You were the first name on my list.

[mfbukowski]

19 hours ago, Maidservant said:

The way that you are talking is not of a person who has actual questions (although that may be in there somewhere), but of someone who already has answers and is lashing out.  I think if I was hurt that deeply, I would lash out too.

Bingo

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Sounds interesting-I wish I knew what you were talking about. 

Splitting quotes like this using "return"

Quote

 

However, it only works when cursor is at the end of the line apparently, because I tried it with your comment after "interesting" and it didn't work for me.

add-on:  if the desired split is not at the end, then hit return to make anew ending, place the cursor at the new end (do not just backspace) and then proceed as usual.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

Splitting quotes like this using "return"

However, it only works when cursor is at the end of the line apparently, because I tried it with your comment after "interesting" and it didn't work for me.

ah-ok thanks, will try it!

[Kenngo1969]

Mr. Mushroom:

I don't necessarily blame you, or anyone who happens to agree with you, for reaching the conclusions you have about God's existence.  You're entitled to choose your own rules of evidence, to decide what evidence you will admit on the question, to decide what evidence you will exclude on the question, and how you will weigh any given piece of evidence.  As are we all.  As you have pointed out, many things in life are hard to reconcile if one believes He exists: Evil, suffering, injustice, unfairness, humanity's inhumanity toward fellow humans, et cetera, ad infinitum and, perhaps, ad nauseam.

Speaking only for myself, whatever I believe about God (or not) and whatever anyone else believes about God (or not), long ago, I came to the realization that whatever else He is or is not, first and foremost, God is a Sovereign.  Like you, there are many things I wish I knew that I do not.  Like you, I think there are many contradictions inherent in my relationship with God (and in His relationships with His children generally).  One day, I would like to sit down with Him and to have Him explain, from His perspective, the "whys-and-the-wherefores" of many of the things that are so confusing to me.  In the meantime, however, I don't see much point in "shaking my widdo fists and stomping my widdo feet" about how Unfair the Sovereign Lord of the Universe is being.

Perhaps too much of my experience with God has been, as Elder Jeffrey R. Holland put it, "too oblique."  Perhaps, if only I had more faith or if only I were better, I would get more of what God surely wants me to have out of life: Small Blessings, 25 cents; Medium-Sized Blessings, 50 cents; Large Blessings, $1.00.  Simply deposit the appropriate amount of fasting, prayer, faith, scripture study, commandment-keeping, and so on, and, Voila!  Out pops the desired blessing!  If only, alas!

I don't know why life is so hard, for me or for anyone else, particularly since: (a) many people believe in the "vending machine" conception of God; and (b) (and even more vexing), for them, life does seem to work exactly that way!  Why them and not me, or why them and not someone else who, seemingly, is more deserving?   I dunno.  I acknowledge, freely, that many of those the religiously devout call "the wicked" are going to do better (they are going to prosper more), in monetary, in material, and in other quantifiable terms, than many of those the devout call "the righteous."  The only answer I have is that (though I'm far from perfect and though I'm not any kind of a paragon of virtue) I do the things I believe God wants me to do because they fill my soul and because they make me happy, not because I expect any sort of a quid pro quo from God or because He is a Cosmic Santa Claus who gives "presents" to His "good" children and "lumps of coal" to his "bad" children.

With Job, I can only say, "The Lord giveth, and the Lord hath taken away [or hath withheld].  Blessed be the name of the Lord" (Job 1:21 (this and all subsequent Holy Bible references to the KJV)) and "Though He slay me, yet will I trust in Him" (Job 13:15).  With Nephi, I can only say, "I know that [God] loveth His children.  Nevertheless, I know not the meaning of all things" (1 Nephi 11:17).  I can only say, as Alma the Younger told his son, Helaman, "I do know that whosoever shall put their trust in God shall be supported in their trials, and their troubles, and their afflictions, and shall be lifted up at the last day" (Alma 36:3) (though I will concede that sometimes, often, perhaps, such "support" is hard to discern: Perhaps such "support" is the only thing that prevents many of us, in many cases, from saying, "Forget it!  Chuck it all!  If there is an afterlife, it's gotta be better than this!  Why wait to find out?").  Like Paul, I am "troubled on every side, yet not distressed"; "perplexed, but not in despair" (at least, not sometimes! ); "persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed" (2 Corinthians 4:8-9).

While your mileage likely varies, there's a certain amount of perspective, also, to be found in the realization that this is the Second Act: We don't remember the First Act, because those memories have been withheld; and the Third Act hasn't happened yet.  For more of my perspective on these matters, see here:

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/on-gods-injustice/

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/maintaining-hope-against-all-odds/

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2014/11/16/beating-the-odds/

[mfbukowski]

21 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

When was I invited? Was it by ambiguous missive as well?

The plan is that you should in fact BE "invited"  by your parents or bishop at least in the interview.  "Do you promise to obey the commandments and always remember Jesus and become part of his family?"

That's up to your parents or bishop.

We taught all our kids about Baptism and how it was a commitment that they could accept or not accept- no compulsion.  We told them they did not have to accept it at 8,  but when and if they were ready and thought that God wanted them to make those three promises.  One waited until 9 or so- the boy of course- but the girls felt ready at 8-ish.

THAT was the invitation to pray about it.

They felt that it was what Jesus wanted them to do and agreed.  Now I am not saying that they were fully informed  theologically but at least the decision was genuinely theirs to accept or reject as we all make decisions like that

[FunOnlineMan]

Should I rephrase the problem in a way that is less lashy-outy?

The prevailing LDS doctrine, as far as I understand it, is that I am a literal child of a loving god. That he specifically sent me here. That he gave me this planet to live on and my earthly parents. But even though these earthly parents are present and I can see the many ways that they show their love for me. It is really god that leads me, guides me, and walks beside me. Also, he will teach me all that I must do to return home to live with him someday. 

And I’m saying that I see nothing in my decades here on earth—including years of actively seeking him—that shows me there is a loving father out there. I hear other people having experiences ranging all over the map that they all say are how their father in heaven contacts them, but I do not accept goosebumps or feelings in my gut as being contacted, since that is not how anyone I love expects me to communicate with them, even if I could. I also would expect someone who loves me to contact me at least once every 30-35 years, at minimum. So I have concluded he is either not out there or he is indifferent to me. If he is indifferent to me, then he is not a loving father. If he’s not a loving father, then I’m fine not returning to him. 

I’m just wondering how LDS thinkers reconcile this problem.

[mfbukowski]

21 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

H yeah.  That’s an easy one. Ambiguity leads to confusion. I don’t see how I spiritually benefit in any way from being confused. 

Why be confused?  Just walk away and go on with life and drop it.

Do you anywhere accept responsibility for being confused or  is it everyone else's fault?  

I have left more churches than I have fully accepted  (3) and once  I  reject one I am done with it.  Excommunicate me, curse  me, send me to your stupid hell that I don't believe in- why should I care?  There are some in my extended family that are convinced I will burn forever for being a Mormon!   I appreciate the concern but I know they are wrong.

I mean if you don't believe it, it is like being cursed by a guy in a Jedi Knight costume  to Jedi Hell on Halloween.  You laugh and shake your head at those wacky people and go on with life.

You only worry about it if a tiny part of you actually believes it.

It's like someone putting a voodoo curse on you and then you  can't sleep at night.  Why would you care unless you think there MIGHT be something to voodoo?

 

[Calm]

 

10 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

but I do not accept goosebumps or feelings in my gut as being contacted, since that is not how anyone I love expects me to communicate with them, even if I could.

 

If someone told you they heard a voice at times when they were communicating with God (I have, it said my daughter had diabetes...took her to the doctor and she did), would that satisfy your requirement?

 

 

[FunOnlineMan]

16 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Mr. Mushroom:

That was my father. Please, call me fungi

16 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't necessarily blame you, or anyone who happens to agree with you, for reaching the conclusions you have about God's existence.  You're entitled to choose your own rules of evidence, to decide what evidence you will admit on the question, to decide what evidence you will exclude on the question, and how you will weigh any given piece of evidence.  As are we all.  As you have pointed out, many things in life are hard to reconcile if one believes He exists: Evil, suffering, injustice, unfairness, humanity's inhumanity toward fellow humans, et cetera, ad infinitum and, perhaps, ad nauseam.

I don’t know if you saw earlier, but I stated I think the LDS treatment of the problem of evil is, to me, the best. 

16 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Speaking only for myself, whatever I believe about God (or not) and whatever anyone else believes about God (or not), long ago, I came to the realization that whatever else He is or is not, first and foremost, God is a Sovereign.  Like you, there are many things I wish I knew that I do not.  Like you, I think there are many contradictions inherent in my relationship with God (and in His relationships with His children generally). 

Sovereign instead of a father?

16 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I don't know why life is so hard, for me or for anyone else, particularly since: (a) many people believe in the "vending machine" conception of God; and (b) (and even more vexing), for them, life does seem to work exactly that way!  Why them and not me, or why them and not someone else who, seemingly, is more deserving?   I dunno.

Not that you’re saying I said this, but I don’t expect life to be easier or anything. I just want contact.

16 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

  I acknowledge, freely, that many of those the religiously devout call "the wicked" are going to do better (they are going to prosper more), in monetary, in material, and in other quantifiable terms, than many of those the devout call "the righteous."  The only answer I have is that (though I'm far from perfect and though I'm not any kind of a paragon of virtue) I do the things I believe God wants me to do because they fill my soul and because they make me happy, not because I expect any sort of a quid pro quo from God or because He is a Cosmic Santa Claus who gives "presents" to His "good" children and "lumps of coal" to his "bad" children.

This is a very healthy take on religious morality. 

16 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

While your mileage likely varies, there's a certain amount of perspective, also, to be found in the realization that this is the Second Act: We don't remember the First Act, because those memories have been withheld; and the Third Act hasn't happened yet.

Yeah, another guy said something to this effect earlier. I’ve taken it down for consideration. 

16 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

For more of my perspective on these matters, see here:

 https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/on-gods-injustice/

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2013/07/09/maintaining-hope-against-all-odds/

https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2014/11/16/beating-the-odds/

If you’re good. 

[mfbukowski]

13 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Should I rephrase the problem in a way that is less lashy-outy?

The prevailing LDS doctrine, as far as I understand it, is that I am a literal child of a loving god. That he specifically sent me here. That he gave me this planet to live on and my earthly parents. But even though these earthly parents are present and I can see the many ways that they show their love for me. It is really god that leads me, guides me, and walks beside me. Also, he will teach me all that I must do to return home to live with him someday. 

And I’m saying that I see nothing in my decades here on earth—including years of actively seeking him—that shows me there is a loving father out there. I hear other people having experiences ranging all over the map that they all say are how their father in heaven contacts them, but I do not accept goosebumps or feelings in my gut as being contacted, since that is not how anyone I love expects me to communicate with them, even if I could. I also would expect someone who loves me to contact me at least once every 30-35 years, at minimum. So I have concluded he is either not out there or he is indifferent to me. If he is indifferent to me, then he is not a loving father. If he’s not a loving father, then I’m fine not returning to him. 

I’m just wondering how LDS thinkers reconcile this problem.

Uh, is your  family invisible?

That might have something to do with it.

If he's invisible do you expect him to change that to have a chat?  You want tangible  words?

You  think maybe  he forgot to push the "audible" button or you think maybe he wants you to communicate in another way?

Do you think that a guy who knows everything might have a REASON for making it a little hard or is he just being stupid in not coming out and appearing to everybody and maybe vaporizing a city if they don't convert?

Maybe he never thought of that approach and its up to you to tell him off that he's got it all wrong?

[mfbukowski]

36 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

The only answer I have is that (though I'm far from perfect and though I'm not any kind of a paragon of virtue) I do the things I believe God wants me to do because they fill my soul and because they make me happy, not because I expect any sort of a quid pro quo from God or because He is a Cosmic Santa Claus who gives "presents" to His "good" children and "lumps of coal" to his "bad" children.

Dang

All  this time I have been  working  to be worthy of the presents of God. 

[FunOnlineMan]

29 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The plan is that you should in fact BE "invited"  by your parents or bishop at least in the interview.  "Do you promise to obey the commandments and always remember Jesus and become part of his family?"

I don’t remember what I was asked or what I said. It was too long ago. I do remember I was going to make my mom and grandma happy.

 

17 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Why be confused?  Just walk away and go on with life and drop it.

Wait. That’s my position. I don’t want to be confused. I think he should be able to contact me without ambiguity. 

Quote

Do you anywhere accept responsibility for being confused or  is it everyone else's fault?  

I will accept full responsibility for being confused if he contacts me. If he doesn’t, then all I’ll ever be is confused by the notion that he is supposed to love me, but can only communicate in an unlovingly limited way.

Quote

I have left more churches than I have fully accepted  (3) and once  I  reject one I am done with it.  Excommunicate me, curse  me, send me to your stupid hell that I don't believe in- why should I care?  There are some in my extended family that are convinced I will burn forever for being a Mormon!   I appreciate the concern but I know they are wrong.

I mean if you don't believe it, it is like being cursed by a guy in a Jedi Knight costume  to Jedi Hell on Halloween.  You laugh and shake your head at those wacky people and go on with life.

You only worry about it if a tiny part of you actually believes it.

It's like someone putting a voodoo curse on you and then you  can't sleep at night.  Why would you care unless you think there MIGHT be something to voodoo?

 

I’m saying I just have no reason to believe it. I’m not quite as punk rock as you. My grandma was the first convert in what is now a pretty solid family in the church, and she is really sad about my spiritual state. I wish I could make that up to her, but I can’t reconcile these kinds of problems, and I can’t lie to kick it. 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

If god really wants to reach out to me, I don’t think I should have to wonder what it will be like or if I would really know it were from god. I do admit freely that I have zero experience with god, so I can’t really come up with my perfect hello. I guess I’d have to see one to judge it. How do you discern communications from your father in heaven?

You have stated you do not accept “goosebumps or feelings in your gut” as legitimate communication from God. Goosebumps I understand, but I assume “feelings in the gut” is your hip dismissal of what some describe as a burning in the bosom. Of course, that phrase is easily mocked, but for lack of a better term, for many people I know there is something very real about the feeling one has when one is communication with God.

But since you reject that, perhaps there is something you could accept. If God were literally to say hello to you (to reach out and you heard his voice, would that be better? What evidence would you accept and how would you know it was from God? How would you recognize any attempt by God to communicate with you? How do you know that others are incapable of or deluded into recognizing God's influence in their lives? 

 

[FunOnlineMan]

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Uh, is your  family invisible?

No. Other some than the dead ones, technically.

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

If he's invisible do you expect him to change that to have a chat?  You want tangible  words?

Yes. That would work. 

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

You  think maybe  he forgot to push the "audible" button or you think maybe he wants you to communicate in another way?

Do you think that a guy who knows everything might have a REASON for making it a little hard or is he just being stupid in not coming out and appearing to everybody and maybe vaporizing a city if they don't convert?

Maybe he never thought of that approach and its up to you to tell him off that he's got it all wrong?

He definitely thought of all those approaches, according to the Bible. I wouldn’t want anyone harmed on my behalf, though. He could just contact me like my visible family does. Call. Leave me a voicemail that I wish were a text. That would work. 

[Bernard Gui]

7 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I don’t remember what I was asked or what I said. It was too long ago. I do remember I was going to make my mom and grandma happy.

 

Wait. That’s my position. I don’t want to be confused. I think he should be able to contact me without ambiguity. 

I will accept full responsibility for being confused if he contacts me. If he doesn’t, then all I’ll ever be is confused by the notion that he is supposed to love me, but can only communicate in an unlovingly limited way.

I’m saying I just have no reason to believe it. I’m not quite as punk rock as you. My grandma was the first convert in what is now a pretty solid family in the church, and she is really sad about my spiritual state. I wish I could make that up to her, but I can’t reconcile these kinds of problems, and I can’t lie to kick it. 

Alma said if we  always remember what God did for our fathers (and grandmothers) we won’t go wrong.

Edited July 17, 2018 by Bernard Gui