The Problem of Indifference

[Hamba Tuhan]

Just now, FunOnlineMan said:

You’ve had conversations with god?

Of course!

[kllindley]

12 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Hi, I would never turn down free parenting advice.

You have the point now. I think he sucks as a parent. That’s harsh language to use about the deity of the group, though, so I sort of came at it from this angle. 

When I set this whole thing out for people I often get accused of being bitter against god or hurt or whatever. I get asked how my relationship with my own father is, etc., and I get why. But is that to say my criticisms against god as a parent are blurred by the direct result of his parenting? If so, that doesn’t make my assertions on what is evident about our father/son relationship weaker or “lashing out.” I’m saying, as Cinepro states above, that god sucks so bad as a parent, a vast number of his children don’t even think he exists. There are other vast numbers of guys in pajama pants and fedoras who think believing in him is a sign of mental disorders or a lack of intelligence. We don’t even know in which direction to lash. A billion or so people would probably say east, so maybe over there. 

The reason that god is referred to as a father is because the Bible says so, right? I know I’m not on one of those message boards, but the reason we even conceive of god as a father is because god told somebody else to leave us a note. That’s not even how good roommates treat each other, and that’s my whole gripe, for the purposes of this online discussion board.

As for the Walsch quote, it presupposes a belief in god, which has not been shown to be a necessary part of human existence. 

And I plan to give my kids big embarrassing hugs and kisses when I drop them off for college and bother them with my attention and farty old dad advice as much as possible well into their own fart dad old age if possible, because I love them. 

None. That’s the whole angle here. I see no evidence of him in my life. Not even anecdotal. I don’t see evidence of him in the lives of my family and friends who I know believe strongly in him either. So I take the position that he doesn’t exist. If he did exist as presented in Judeo-Christian models, he’d be a terrible father. 

It is a noble goal, yes. Perfect anything would realistically take more than luck. 

To your questions, these are hypothetical, yes? And do I understand you correctly here, that we shouldn’t criticize god’s worth as a father because we don’t fully understand the journey we’re on?

I don’t think him using his “beloved” son as a stand in makes him any less of an indifferent father.

I see it more of the way you find out what dad wants is you get out the stack of jumbled papers that you heard he dictated, an old cook book, and a bunch of letters from one of your cousins to people you don’t know. That or bow your head and guess.

So what is your purpose in posting here? You made the effort to create 25 responses so that you could start a thread on how much you don't believe in God and think that if He exists, He is a terrible father. But you didn't even state that openly in your OP. 

So, what kind of response are you looking for? Are you trying to convert people to atheism? (I don't think you're going to have much success there) Do you want sympathy  and  commiseration? (Probably the wing place for it) Are you just out to mock those of us who believe God is a loving, successful Father? (You're doing a great job of it, but also not really the place for that)

[kllindley]

3 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

You’ve had conversations with god?

Yep. Regularly. Mock away. 

[FunOnlineMan]

Just now, kllindley said:

So what is your purpose in posting here? You made the effort to create 25 responses so that you could start a thread on how much you don't believe in God and think that if He exists, He is a terrible father. But you didn't even state that openly in your OP. 

So, what kind of response are you looking for? Are you trying to convert people to atheism? (I don't think you're going to have much success there) Do you want sympathy  and  commiseration? (Probably the wing place for it) Are you just out to mock those of us who believe God is a loving, successful Father? (You're doing a great job of it, but also not really the place for that)

I posted here because I’m curious if anyone can rectify the problem I see in the fatherliness of god. I figured I could discuss it with people, and I respect Mormon apologetics enough to interact with people on here on a number of subjects. You don’t have to discuss anything with me. Nobody does, really. And I’m assuming there are mute/ block features available here if my tone bothers you.

I didn’t mean to deceive anybody by not stating my belief system in the OP because to me, it’s irrelevant to the issue. Either he’s a good father or he’s not. I’m new to the board, and my writing style is a little free form, but if anyone has questions about my motives or beliefs, I’m a pretty open book.

[pogi]

13 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

That’s the point, though. My siblings all view my father differently, but we can all agree that he’s that one tall guy with a mustache. God’s apparent influence on earth has certainly left more confusion than, to me, is reconcilable, but I’m just focusing this thread toward those people who do subscribe to Dear Heavenly Father.

I think it is reconcilable.  Confusion is just a step.  What infant can reach maturity without addressing confusion?  If you are limiting God's influence to this life only, I could see how it might be a problem, but you are not looking at the BIG picture.  

In speaking of God's influence, I am reminded of the saying, "you don't know what you have, until it is gone."  The grass is not greener on the other side of God's influence.  Another good saying, "Don't take things for granted, because they might not be there tomorrow."  

[FunOnlineMan]

10 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Of course!

You understand that’s rare, though, right?

6 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Yep. Regularly. Mock away. 

You want me to mock you?

[FunOnlineMan]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

I think it is reconcilable.  Confusion is just a step.  What infant can reach maturity without addressing confusion?  If you are limiting God's influence to this life only, I could see how it might be a problem, but you are not looking at the BIG picture.  

In speaking of God's influence, I am reminded of the saying, "you don't know what you have, until it is gone."  The grass is not greener on the other side of God's influence.  Another good saying, "Don't take things for granted, because they might not be there tomorrow."  

The irreconcilable part, to me, is that the confusion isn’t just about the where did we come from, why are we here, where are we going aspect, it’s confusion about god’s very existence, which doesn’t line up with even the worst examples of fathers. 

[kllindley]

2 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

You understand that’s rare, though, right?

You want me to mock you?

That's just what you've been doing so far on this thread. 

[FunOnlineMan]

Just now, kllindley said:

That's just what you've been doing so far on this thread. 

I’m sorry if you feel like I’m mocking you. I don’t really want to mock you. I don’t know you, and I’m guessing too much targeting mocking will get me banned. If you’re just accusing me of being disingenuous to discredit my criticism of god, then maybe don’t do that. 

[pogi]

9 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

The irreconcilable part, to me, is that the confusion isn’t just about the where did we come from, why are we here, where are we going aspect, it’s confusion about god’s very existence, which doesn’t line up with even the worst examples of fathers. 

Again, you are still looking at this from a mortal/temporal perspective and not considering the eternity of God's influence.  We knew him before, His influence is ever present (whether we recognize it yet or not) and all will know and recognize him again.  What have you done with the light we have been given?  That will be the question he asks.  "Did you open the door to my light/influence when I knocked?" We are simply in the utero-stage of development.  He is very compassionate and merciful in our confusion in not always recognizing the source of this light.

Edited July 17, 2018 by pogi

[kllindley]

28 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I posted here because I’m curious if anyone can rectify the problem I see in the fatherliness of god. I figured I could discuss it with people, and I respect Mormon apologetics enough to interact with people on here on a number of subjects. You don’t have to discuss anything with me. Nobody does, really. And I’m assuming there are mute/ block features available here if my tone bothers you.

I didn’t mean to deceive anybody by not stating my belief system in the OP because to me, it’s irrelevant to the issue. Either he’s a good father or he’s not. I’m new to the board, and my writing style is a little free form, but if anyone has questions about my motives or beliefs, I’m a pretty open book.

I didn't say anything about needing to block you or not being willing to discuss the issue. I asked a sincere question about what your goal for the discussion was. I can appreciate the curiosity. But when you get dismissive and snarky to people who answer your question, it doesn't seem like curiosity is really the goal. 

As others have already pointed out, from the LDS perspective, we all spent an eternity growing up in His presence. I let my children leave to attend school for 8 hours a day with no contact from me. In comparison to our eternal existence, this mortal experience is a much shorter period of time than a single hour of an earthly life.

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by kllindley

[FunOnlineMan]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

Again, you are still looking at this from a mortal/temporal perspective and not considering the eternity of God's influence.  We knew him before, His influence is ever present (whether we recognize it yet or not) and all will know and recognize him again.  What have you done with the light we have been given?  That will be the question he asks.  He will not ask, "which version of me did you believe", and he will not damn us for not knowing his name in this life.  We are simply in the utero-stage of development.  He is very compassionate and merciful in our confusion.

For you, that reconciles the problem, but I think that’s an extremely soft take on traditional judgment. You have to at least accept Jesus, right? Whatever that entails, or however you go about it, that’s the constant, the accepting of the Christ.

I’m saying my confusion keeps me from doing that. The very nature of god stands in my way. 

[CV75]

21 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I finally made it to posting strength. Hello.

Anyway…

•God is our perfect parent in heaven. A perfect parent should exemplify only perfect parental attributes. If I pattern my parenting as closely after the heavenly parenting model as I possibly can, I should expect to end up as close to being the perfect parent as I possibly can. 

If I were to even attempt to follow the heavenly parenting model, what would it look like? And would you prescribe this as a viable parenting system?

What model do you follow (and why)?

[kllindley]

10 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I’m sorry if you feel like I’m mocking you. I don’t really want to mock you. I don’t know you, and I’m guessing too much targeting mocking will get me banned. If you’re just accusing me of being disingenuous to discredit my criticism of god, then maybe don’t do that. 

No accusation. It was a sincere question about what you are looking for. 

I have no I intention of discrediting your experience or beliefs. I admit that I don't understand how you can simply be criticizing a Being you don't believe exists, without that being a jab at people who do believe in Him and believe that they have had personal interactions with Him. 

 

[FunOnlineMan]

2 minutes ago, kllindley said:

I didn't say anything about needing to block you or not being willing to discuss the issue. I asked a sincere question about what your house for the discussion was. I can appreciate the curiosity. But when you get dismissive and snarky to people who answer your question, it doesn't seem like curiosity is really the goal. 

As others have already pointed out, from the LDS perspective, we all spent an eternity growing up in His presence. I see my children to leave to attend school for 8 hours a day with no contact from me. In comparison to our eternal existence, this mortal experience is a much shorter period of time than a single hour of an earthly life.

 

I will admit to having a snarky tone.

I’m also glad I didn’t mock you, because your answer is, to me, the best one yet. Granted, I have issues with the eternal parts, but it’s a good reconciliation for you, a believer in the father god concept. I was curious how people reconcile it, and now I’ve found a good one. The internet is inescapably bad, but every now and again, it works. 

[kllindley]

3 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

For you, that reconciles the problem, but I think that’s an extremely soft take on traditional judgment. You have to at least accept Jesus, right? Whatever that entails, or however you go about it, that’s the constant, the accepting of the Christ.

I’m saying my confusion keeps me from doing that. The very nature of god stands in my way. 

That is an understandable position. 

Regarding that perspective on judgment being a soft take, it may be. But it is the LDS take. That is a major part of why I find LDS theology so much more believable than traditional Christian views. 

[FunOnlineMan]

5 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What model do you follow (and why)?

I haven’t found a model I feel comfortable following, so I don’t follow any at all. 

I was raised LDS and consider myself an atheist.

[FunOnlineMan]

5 minutes ago, kllindley said:

That is an understandable position. 

Regarding that perspective on judgment being a soft take, it may be. But it is the LDS take. That is a major part of why I find LDS theology so much more believable than traditional Christian views. 

I think it also glosses over the results of the judgment. 

I cant imagine that the official LDS stance is that people will just get waved into the highest degrees of glory without efforts on their part. So, it sort of just deflects the problem down the road.

Edited July 17, 2018 by FunOnlineMan

[kllindley]

2 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I think it also glosses over the results of the judgment. 

I cant imagine the official LDS stance is that people will just get wave into the highest degrees of glory without efforts on their part. So, it sort of just deflects the problem down the road.

Sure it postpones the problem. But isn't that what any belief system does? Don't atheists have to accept the possibility that if they die and end up facing God that they will have to deal with that reality then? 

I agree that no one is granted the gift of  Exaltation without effort, but the official position is that the time between death and judgment is still a major factor in the outcome of the judgement. 

[CV75]

13 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I haven’t found a model I feel comfortable following, so I don’t follow any at all. 

I was raised LDS and consider myself an atheist.

Are you a parent, or do you intend to be?

[FunOnlineMan]

18 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Sure it postpones the problem. But isn't that what any belief system does? Don't atheists have to accept the possibility that if they die and end up facing God that they will have to deal with that reality then? 

I agree that no one is granted the gift of  Exaltation without effort, but the official position is that the time between death and judgment is still a major factor in the outcome of the judgement. 

I accept the possibility, but I think we disagree on the probability. Yes, though, I may have to stand before him. That’s why I’m practicing this criticism now. I want it ironed out my presentation in the hereafter. 

 

[FunOnlineMan]

16 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Are you a parent, or do you intend to be?

I am

[CV75]

9 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I am

What other models have you evaluated?

[FunOnlineMan]

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What other models have you evaluated?

Of god or of parenting?

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I posted here because I’m curious if anyone can rectify the problem I see in the fatherliness of god. I figured I could discuss it with people, and I respect Mormon apologetics enough to interact with people on here on a number of subjects. You don’t have to discuss anything with me. Nobody does, really. And I’m assuming there are mute/ block features available here if my tone bothers you.

I didn’t mean to deceive anybody by not stating my belief system in the OP because to me, it’s irrelevant to the issue. Either he’s a good father or he’s not. I’m new to the board, and my writing style is a little free form, but if anyone has questions about my motives or beliefs, I’m a pretty open book.

In my first response to you, I expressed reservations about discussing sacred things with you because you had not established a record of corresponding in good will. You have since provided sufficient evidence that my reservations were justified, and that you intend to operate from a position of ill will. That’s an unfortunate way to make your debut here because if this is your modus operandi (your “free form style),” you will find yourself pretty much talking to yourself and a few like-minded disaffected people.

Whatever your purpose is for being here (which have not made clear even with the above), you quickly and emphatically reject any responses with which you may disagree with what you seem to think are hip, witty, clever, and devastating (apparently in your mind) retorts. That gets old really fast.

On the other hand, you will find many here who would gladly discuss things in a robust atmosphere of mutual respect and honesty....It’s your choice.

That said, based on my own lifetime of experiences with the parenthood of God and the Fatherhood of Jesus (as you admit you also do as a result of a dearth of such experiences), I don’t accept your premise. 

 

Edited July 17, 2018 by Bernard Gui