FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 I finally made it to posting strength. Hello. Anyway… •God is our perfect parent in heaven. A perfect parent should exemplify only perfect parental attributes. If I pattern my parenting as closely after the heavenly parenting model as I possibly can, I should expect to end up as close to being the perfect parent as I possibly can. If I were to even attempt to follow the heavenly parenting model, what would it look like? And would you prescribe this as a viable parenting system?
Maidservant Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: If I were to even attempt to follow the heavenly parenting model, what would it look like? And would you prescribe this as a viable parenting system? Well, first of all, it seems that the men are in charge of the kids. I.e. Heavenly Father takes care of his kids 24/7. 😉 Seriously, though, it would be based mainly on agency. To guide our children in learning to guide themselves under their own authority and their own choice-making. To realize that they don't need help being their eternal selves (they are already good and can be our teachers), but need a family to protect and nourish them, and show them a few ropes for this planet, and make room for them to grow and express naturally. To teach 90 percent by Modeling, 10 percent by precept. Which is what happens anyway, but parents often pretend otherwise . . . that they can 'say' or 'system' something other than what they show and are themselves.
pogi Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: I finally made it to posting strength. Hello. Anyway… •God is our perfect parent in heaven. A perfect parent should exemplify only perfect parental attributes. If I pattern my parenting as closely after the heavenly parenting model as I possibly can, I should expect to end up as close to being the perfect parent as I possibly can. If I were to even attempt to follow the heavenly parenting model, what would it look like? And would you prescribe this as a viable parenting system? To follow such a heavenly model would require the foreknowledge of a perfectly loving/just Father, omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. Alas, attempting to live up to such a model in our fallible mortal state is a recipe for disaster. Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little... 2
Popular Post cinepro Posted July 16, 2018 Popular Post Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: I finally made it to posting strength. Hello. Anyway… •God is our perfect parent in heaven. A perfect parent should exemplify only perfect parental attributes. If I pattern my parenting as closely after the heavenly parenting model as I possibly can, I should expect to end up as close to being the perfect parent as I possibly can. If I were to even attempt to follow the heavenly parenting model, what would it look like? And would you prescribe this as a viable parenting system? Honestly, you'd probably get locked up for neglect. I mean, I might not be the perfect dad, but I can assure you none of my kids are debating whether or not I even exist. Edited July 16, 2018 by cinepro 5
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Author Posted July 16, 2018 20 minutes ago, Maidservant said: Well, first of all, it seems that the men are in charge of the kids. I.e. Heavenly Father takes care of his kids 24/7. 😉 Seriously, though, it would be based mainly on agency. To guide our children in learning to guide themselves under their own authority and their own choice-making. To realize that they don't need help being their eternal selves (they are already good and can be our teachers), but need a family to protect and nourish them, and show them a few ropes for this planet, and make room for them to grow and express naturally. To teach 90 percent by Modeling, 10 percent by precept. Which is what happens anyway, but parents often pretend otherwise . . . that they can 'say' or 'system' something other than what they show and are themselves. If I recall correctly, I think the sensitive issue you’ve raised here is that moms just don’t get mentioned enough, right? The thing about the heavenly parenting model, is that it’s beyond parenting with love and logic, it’s beyond exploratory learning. It’s a complete distancing of yourself from the equation to make sure you don’t ruin the children. So, you teach the one kid using 90% modeling, then that kid writes down a confusing story about a guy getting eaten by a whale or something. I am maybe making the examples too absurd, but I hope you can see what I’m getting at. 11 minutes ago, pogi said: To follow such a heavenly model would require the foreknowledge of a perfectly loving/just Father, omniscience, omnipotence, and omnipresence. Alas, attempting to live up to such a model in our fallible mortal state is a recipe for disaster. Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little... So should I just scrap the notion that god is a usable example of a father then? Because placing his example so far out of reach as to make it unattainable would also make it useless.
smac97 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: I finally made it to posting strength. Hello. Anyway… •God is our perfect parent in heaven. Yes. 2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: A perfect parent should exemplify only perfect parental attributes. Yes. However, I question whether we can fully comprehend "perfect parental attributes." My children regularly object to things that I do that are objectively demonstrative of good parenting. And yet they, in the moment, can be irritated at me. So it is, I think, with our relationship with our Father in Heaven. Consider Isaiah 55: Quote 8 ¶ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. Any discussion by a bunch of finite, blinkered, imperfect human beings about what their perfected, omniscient Father in Heaven "exemplif[ies]" is necessarily going to need some pretty hefty caveats. 2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: If I pattern my parenting as closely after the heavenly parenting model as I possibly can, I should expect to end up as close to being the perfect parent as I possibly can. Well, not really. We are not precisely in the same situation. For example, consider D&C 64:10, in which the Lord states: "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." And Mormon 8:20: "Behold what the scripture says—man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay." And 1 Cor. 13:12: "For now we see through a glass, darkly." In broad strokes, yes, we should seek to emulate God. But obedience should preempt emulation, particularly when we lack the skill sets that God has. So where God can and does judge/punish others, we should forgive. Where God can properly set himself above us, we should be humble and meek. And so on. 2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: If I were to even attempt to follow the heavenly parenting model, what would it look like? And would you prescribe this as a viable parenting system? The Proclamation on the Family would be a good place to start. There are also plenty of scriptures and general conference talks and Ensign articles about good parenting. Thanks, -Smac 3
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Author Posted July 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, cinepro said: Honestly, you'd probably get locked up for neglect. I mean, I might not be the perfect dad, but I can assure you none of my kids are debating whether or not I even exist. Seems that way. Then, when the arguments downstairs get so loud you can’t hear the TV, you maybe lose your cool and flood the whole house to just get some peace and quiet and oh boy, now what do we do?
Jeanne Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 Just sayin...I have never met a perfect parent.😋 i just know that there were some days where I wanted a T-shirt that said...."My name is not Mom"..
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Author Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 10 minutes ago, smac97 said: Yes. Yes. However, I question whether we can fully comprehend "perfect parental attributes." My children regularly object to things that I do that are objectively demonstrative of good parenting. And yet they, in the moment, can be irritated at me. So it is, I think, with our relationship with our Father in Heaven. Consider Isaiah 55: Any discussion by a bunch of finite, blinkered, imperfect human beings about what their perfected, omniscient Father in Heaven "exemplif[ies]" is necessarily going to need some pretty hefty caveats. Well, not really. We are not precisely in the same situation. For example, consider D&C 64:10, in which the Lord states: "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." And Mormon 8:20: "Behold what the scripture says—man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay." And 1 Cor. 13:12: "For now we see through a glass, darkly." In broad strokes, yes, we should seek to emulate God. But obedience should preempt emulation, particularly when we lack the skill sets that God has. So where God can and does judge/punish others, we should forgive. Where God can properly set himself above us, we should be humble and meek. And so on. The Proclamation on the Family would be a good place to start. There are also plenty of scriptures and general conference talks and Ensign articles about good parenting. Thanks, -Smac To start by stating we can’t even fully grasp this parent’s very nature is telling of the division in our house, isn’t it? You’re describing regular parenting in your example. You tell your kids to, let’s say, turn off the Xbox and pick up a book or go outside. They obviously think your insane for even entertaining such insane ideas, but you tell them these insane ideas yourself. You don’t tell the neighbor kid to tell them or pick your favorite son to show them by perfect example a life without Xbox. Even if you take the judgment aspect out of the system, god’s preferred method of communication isn’t enough to sustain a meaningful relationship. Edited July 16, 2018 by FunOnlineMan
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Author Posted July 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Just sayin...I have never met a perfect parent.😋 i just know that there were some days where I wanted a T-shirt that said...."My name is not Mom".. I haven’t met one either. My mom was well above average, I think. By the way, I’d rock that shirt too. 1
smac97 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: To start by stating we can’t even fully grasp this parent’s very nature is telling of the division in our house, isn’t it? I'm not sure what you mean by "the division in our house." Acknowledging our finite perspective is not a bad thing, I think. 5 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: You’re describing regular parenting in your example. I'm not sure what you mean by "regular parenting." Parenting that is patterned after the precepts of the Restored Gospel, such as are found in the Proclamation and other sources I referenced, would be very, very good parenting. 5 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: You tell your kids to, let’s say, turn off the Xbox and pick up a book or go outside. They obviously think your insane for even entertaining such insane ideas, but you tell them these insane ideas yourself. You don’t tell the neighbor kid to tell them or pick your favorite son to show them by perfect example a life without Xbox. Even if you take the judgment aspect out of the system, god’s preferred method of communication isn’t enough to sustain a meaningful relationship. I'm not sure what you are saying here. Sorry. Thanks, -Smac
6EQUJ5 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 27 minutes ago, smac97 said: Yes. Yes. However, I question whether we can fully comprehend "perfect parental attributes." My children regularly object to things that I do that are objectively demonstrative of good parenting. And yet they, in the moment, can be irritated at me. So it is, I think, with our relationship with our Father in Heaven. Consider Isaiah 55: Any discussion by a bunch of finite, blinkered, imperfect human beings about what their perfected, omniscient Father in Heaven "exemplif[ies]" is necessarily going to need some pretty hefty caveats. Well, not really. We are not precisely in the same situation. For example, consider D&C 64:10, in which the Lord states: "I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men." And Mormon 8:20: "Behold what the scripture says—man shall not smite, neither shall he judge; for judgment is mine, saith the Lord, and vengeance is mine also, and I will repay." And 1 Cor. 13:12: "For now we see through a glass, darkly." In broad strokes, yes, we should seek to emulate God. But obedience should preempt emulation, particularly when we lack the skill sets that God has. So where God can and does judge/punish others, we should forgive. Where God can properly set himself above us, we should be humble and meek. And so on. The Proclamation on the Family would be a good place to start. There are also plenty of scriptures and general conference talks and Ensign articles about good parenting. Thanks, -Smac Pardon smac97, FunOnlineMan. As some are fond of saying, smac doesn't understand the difference between litigation, and conversation. 2
smac97 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, 6EQUJ5 said: Pardon smac97, FunOnlineMan. As some are fond of saying, smac doesn't understand the difference between litigation, and conversation. Yes, I do. Thanks, -Smac 2
USU78 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 The problem of the Deus Absconditus was addressed quite well by Pascal thus: Quote This is what I see and what troubles me. I look on all sides, and I see only darkness everywhere. Nature presents to me nothing which is not a matter of doubt and concern. If I saw nothing there which revealed Divinity, I would come to a negative conclusion, if I saw everywhere the signs of a Creator, I would remain peacefully in faith. But, seeing too much to deny and too little to be sure, I am in a state to be pitied. There is a perfectly acceptable and principled response to the ambiguity of evidence for G-d's existence and His caring for His creation, which I'm quite sure you know very well. It all comes down to evidence that YOU choose to find most revealing and which has the best explanatory power WRT your own experience. YOU get to judge for yourself what weight to give each evidentiary modicum, and YOU get to decide what, if any, difference the evidence makes in your interactions with others. As for me and my house ... 1
Storm Rider Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 3 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said: I finally made it to posting strength. Hello. Anyway… •God is our perfect parent in heaven. A perfect parent should exemplify only perfect parental attributes. If I pattern my parenting as closely after the heavenly parenting model as I possibly can, I should expect to end up as close to being the perfect parent as I possibly can. If I were to even attempt to follow the heavenly parenting model, what would it look like? And would you prescribe this as a viable parenting system? What do you think the objective is of "perfect" parenting? 2
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Author Posted July 16, 2018 27 minutes ago, smac97 said: I'm not sure what you mean by "the division in our house." I'm not sure what you mean by "regular parenting." Parenting that is patterned after the precepts of the Restored Gospel, such as are found in the Proclamation and other sources I referenced, would be very, very good parenting. I'm not sure what you are saying here. Sorry. Thanks, -Smac I’ll try to clarify, but if you dare litigate against me, I’m going to report you to the mods. House was probably a poor word choice. I mean that there is an actual division in the family, where the parents never come downstairs to make dinner or tell you which chores to do before you go play or whatever. That would be regular parenting. Regular parenting is the kid you described, wherein a parent tells a child directly what is expected of them. It’s parenting without esoteric messages being delivered indirectly. That last bit was supposed to contrast the way you or I parent with how we see god’s interactions described. We use our words, god uses the ones he told Moses to tell you those other guys a long time ago. That or he uses the thousands of possibilities within our body’s nervous and digestive systems to give you little unreadable hints.
smac97 Posted July 16, 2018 Posted July 16, 2018 1 minute ago, FunOnlineMan said: I’ll try to clarify, but if you dare litigate against me, I’m going to report you to the mods. I'll assume you meant this in good humor. 1 minute ago, FunOnlineMan said: House was probably a poor word choice. I mean that there is an actual division in the family, where the parents never come downstairs to make dinner or tell you which chores to do before you go play or whatever. That would be regular parenting. Regular parenting is the kid you described, wherein a parent tells a child directly what is expected of them. It’s parenting without esoteric messages being delivered indirectly. I'm still not following what you are saying. Are you complaining here? Suggesting that God is an absentee parent? 1 minute ago, FunOnlineMan said: That last bit was supposed to contrast the way you or I parent with how we see god’s interactions described. We use our words, god uses the ones he told Moses to tell you those other guys a long time ago. That or he uses the thousands of possibilities within our body’s nervous and digestive systems to give you little unreadable hints. Still not following. I'll bow out. Thanks, -Smac
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Author Posted July 16, 2018 20 minutes ago, USU78 said: The problem of the Deus Absconditus was addressed quite well by Pascal thus: There is a perfectly acceptable and principled response to the ambiguity of evidence for G-d's existence and His caring for His creation, which I'm quite sure you know very well. It all comes down to evidence that YOU choose to find most revealing and which has the best explanatory power WRT your own experience. YOU get to judge for yourself what weight to give each evidentiary modicum, and YOU get to decide what, if any, difference the evidence makes in your interactions with others. As for me and my house ... If it’s up to me to decide which evidence explanatory or revealing, then how can I find my way past the senses I’m assuming you believe he gave to me to discern them. Because I’ve tested the word. I’ve prayed. I’ve blindly followed the commandments, I’ve tried to share the gospel, etc. and I never found any evidence that I could even question is there any means to help me find god that couldn’t also be used to help turn me away from god entirely? Because it’s hard for me to reconcile such a seemingly indifferent god with the god is love stuff. If he wants to hang out with me after the prostate cancer or whatever ends up finishing me off, he’s not even convincing me that I’d want to hang out with him if he did manifest himself.
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Author Posted July 16, 2018 7 minutes ago, smac97 said: I'll assume you meant this in good humor. I'm still not following what you are saying. Are you complaining here? Suggesting that God is an absentee parent? Still not following. I'll bow out. Thanks, -Smac Yes, yeah, and okay. Have a good night.
FunOnlineMan Posted July 16, 2018 Author Posted July 16, 2018 28 minutes ago, Storm Rider said: What do you think the objective is of "perfect" parenting? Great question. I’m not sure it’s my place to answer, since I’m not a believer, but I started this jalopy thread, so there’s nowhere for me to hide, I guess. I think in this light, it’s to perfectly prepare children for adulthood.
bluebell Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 I think it's difficult to gauge God's parenting style, since we are seeing such a very very small part of it. God is parenting us in a very specific state right now, one that I don't think is comparable to any earthly parent--He's parenting us in a test to gauge the condition of our hearts. Maybe you could compare it to a parent who was testing a child to see if they were ready and able to take over the family business, but even that situation falls short. For one thing, our spiritual maturity if probably more like a 4 year old than an adult child. I think we can model aspects of our parenting after him though. We can follow His example of parenting with patience, with love, using chastisement when necessary, putting our children's needs above our desire to never feel guilty or uncomfortable when our kids are upset with us, never making decisions based on how much it will make our kids like us but instead always doing what is best for them, etc. 2
USU78 Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 45 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said: If it’s up to me to decide which evidence explanatory or revealing, then how can I find my way past the senses I’m assuming you believe he gave to me to discern them. Because I’ve tested the word. I’ve prayed. I’ve blindly followed the commandments, I’ve tried to share the gospel, etc. and I never found any evidence that I could even question is there any means to help me find god that couldn’t also be used to help turn me away from god entirely? Because it’s hard for me to reconcile such a seemingly indifferent god with the god is love stuff. If he wants to hang out with me after the prostate cancer or whatever ends up finishing me off, he’s not even convincing me that I’d want to hang out with him if he did manifest himself. So you reject the very ambiguity in which He veils Himself as a loving act respectful of our liberty.
FunOnlineMan Posted July 17, 2018 Author Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, USU78 said: So you reject the very ambiguity in which He veils Himself as a loving act respectful of our liberty. H yeah. That’s an easy one. Ambiguity leads to confusion. I don’t see how I spiritually benefit in any way from being confused.
USU78 Posted July 17, 2018 Posted July 17, 2018 1 minute ago, FunOnlineMan said: H yeah. That’s an easy one. Ambiguity leads to confusion. I don’t see how I spiritually benefit in any way from being confused. That's because you don't value the invitation to covenant. 1
FunOnlineMan Posted July 17, 2018 Author Posted July 17, 2018 1 hour ago, bluebell said: I think it's difficult to gauge God's parenting style, since we are seeing such a very very small part of it. God is parenting us in a very specific state right now, one that I don't think is comparable to any earthly parent--He's parenting us in a test to gauge the condition of our hearts. Maybe you could compare it to a parent who was testing a child to see if they were ready and able to take over the family business, but even that situation falls short. For one thing, our spiritual maturity if probably more like a 4 year old than an adult child. I think we can model aspects of our parenting after him though. We can follow His example of parenting with patience, with love, using chastisement when necessary, putting our children's needs above our desire to never feel guilty or uncomfortable when our kids are upset with us, never making decisions based on how much it will make our kids like us but instead always doing what is best for them, etc. Sorry, I replied to this earlier, but I think I tried to get too fancy with the quote boxes, because I don’t see that it posted anywhere. Unless this lost rejoinder surfaces, we can only assume it was an elegant treatise about something very sophisticated. Anyway, I don’t see how we can model after him in these attributes you describe. I don’t see these parenting attributes in the god of Israel.
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