Kenngo1969 Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 2 hours ago, Calm said: The outhouse thing freaks me out. Give me a tree and bushes any time (I will take getting caught over those smells in the dark any day). Poopourri? https://www.poopourri.com/pages/try-it-free-limited-time-special-offer-20-off?utm_source=Search&utm_medium=AdWords&utm_campaign=Potpourri 1
Scott Lloyd Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 1 minute ago, Gray said: Again, just basing it on the material in the summary, which shows two successive and significant failures in business prior to his church calling. If you have a more detailed report I'm sure many would be interested in it. What makes you think they were successive? One happened in the late ‘50s and the other in the mid to late ‘60s. Are you saying he had no other business ventures in the interim ? Prove it. CFR. And they brought the dealership back from the brink of bankruptcy after the Edsel fiasco. I’d call that survival a success. By the way, I clearly remember the Valley Music Hall. It functioned well for a while. It just wasn’t sustainable. Not every business venture succeeds. But they paid back the investors by finding a buyer for it — the Church. It is still in use to this day by the Church as the Bountiful Regional Center. It has been used for that purpose for going on a half-century now, thus outlasting many public buildings.
Scott Lloyd Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, Gray said: Which real estate and other investments were successful? You’re the one who seems to be claiming he had a string of successive failures before being called into general Church leadership. Prove it. CFR.
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 3 hours ago, bsjkki said: What area in the world do you live that your quorum can grow by 40-50 boys? To be fair, about 1/3 of these boys were non-members who became 'active' through the invitations of their mates. (Only one ever got baptised ... so far.) Quote We had small youth group and the Stake would tell us it would get better (lay on a heavy guilt trip that if we were just more faithful, we would grow)...but demographics were not on our side and no, it did not get better. How many youth did you have on your ward membership list? We ended up with close to 100% of the boys on ours coming to activities. Obviously, if you didn't have that many for your class/quorum presidencies to reach out to, you would be limited in numbers. Quote The Beehive presidency would plan activities and the girls would be on board and then their parents would ground them or not let them come because of homework etc...it was discouraging. This really sucks! We have a family in our ward who used the Church as a tool to beat their children with in a variety of ways, including banning them from Mutual and even temple trips. So discouraging! Thankfully, we were able to help all four kids stay active. Two have completed their missions, and the third is serving now. All this despite their parents... Quote I also appreciate your patience working with two autistic boys! Same! I meant to say that earlier. When I was YM president, we had a very autistic boy in our group. In the beginning, he used to just run around whatever the rest of us were doing. He'd do that all evening, without stopping. It was a good opportunity for the adult advisers to teach the other boys how to deal with differences. In his case, things certainly got better over time. Whenever we travelled overnight (temple, camp, youth convention), I always had to be present so that I could handle the occasional melt-downs and incidents of bed-wetting. This young man is no longer active, but at one point he'd memorised every chapter in 'For the Strength of Youth' verbatim, and he still turns to me and other Church members for support. 1
Calm Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 42 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said: Poopourri? https://www.poopourri.com/pages/try-it-free-limited-time-special-offer-20-off?utm_source=Search&utm_medium=AdWords&utm_campaign=Potpourri If only (I hear it works great for porcelain thrones, can't imagine much impact on those wooden or plastic ones)...they would definitely be included in any emergency kit I prepared. urg... I keep forgetting and type Gotta stop posting.
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 3 hours ago, JulieM said: Averaged 40-50 boys a week from only having one boy active? How many inactive boys did you have in your ward if that’s an average? That’s a huge number to activate! 1 hour ago, Calm said: Good chance a lot of them are nonmembers, I am guessing, invited by their member friends. Yep. Plus nearly all of the young men in the ward became active at Mutual ... and many of them at church. We reached a point where the priests barely fit in the bishop's office on Sundays.
bsjkki Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 16 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: How many youth did you have on your ward membership list? We ended up with close to 100% of the boys on ours coming to activities. Obviously, if you didn't have that many for your class/quorum presidencies to reach out to, you would be limited in numbers. We were tiny before some boundary changes. I know in young women’s we had 6 girls (3 of them were mine) and two inactive. The young men were smaller. After boundary changes we currently have 22 on the rolls with 4 inactive in YM’s. We are a relatively active ward. In Primary, I have about 85 active kids with two inactive and one of those goes to church with relatives in another ward. That is pretty amazing. 1
JulieM Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 5 hours ago, ALarson said: IIRC, he was also involved in some of the questionable dealings regarding Paul Dunn (and Jose Riffo). It's been awhile since I read about that, but it wasn't good from what I remember. Yes, I remember reading about this in Packer’s book about Paul Dunn. Wasn’t the Osmond family involved in this too? But I think that was maybe separate from his association with the Riffo deal? I remember that Riffo was convicted of fraud. That guy was something else and fooled everyone (for awhile). It’s quite a story.
Avatar4321 Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 One of the reasons I always enjoyed scouting was because it helped us become well rounded men. I liked the change to earn merit badges and the skills and knowledge we gained in a wide variety of areas in life. I'm concerned that creating our own program will focus mainly on church stuff. While Church certainly isn't bad, I think it's good for the youth to grow in all areas. Especially in this age where many of their colleagues aren't maturing at all. I have faith that the Lord will prepare what we need through 2
JulieM Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 52 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: Yep. Plus nearly all of the young men in the ward became active at Mutual ... and many of them at church. We reached a point where the priests barely fit in the bishop's office on Sundays. That’s amazing! That kid must have been quite the missionary 1
Avatar4321 Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 10 hours ago, bluebell said: That's not really a surprise. Boys are raised to believe that the best way to insult another guy is to compare them to a girl in some way. Even without knowing much about what happens at YWs on Wednesday night, I think most boys would just assume it was lame on principle alone. It really does depend on the YW leaders though. We do fun stuff because my counselors and I want to do fun stuff. We just did an awesome behind the scenes aquarium tour last wedesday were we got to prepare a raw fish dinner and hand feed it to amazon jungle fish, cayman, and turtles (among other things) and are going camping on Friday. We will be tubing a river, hiking to waterfalls, caving, (hopefully) rock climbing, kayaking, and going camping again three more times (for the older girls) in the next few weeks alone. We know how to have a good time! Can't say I ever wanted to do what the YW were doing. You know except to get to know the Y W better;) 1
Avatar4321 Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 6 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said: They were involved in planning the camp, or they planned the camp? When I was called as YM president, we had one active boy. As I had been instructed by the 1st counsellor in the YM Genereral Presidency, one boy makes a quorum. So he was called as quorum president. It took us two years to train him right, but by the time he was teachers quorum president, he finally understood ministering and started visiting the homes of other boys. Four years later, when he was 18, we averaged 40-50 boys at mutual each week. Hang in there. It gets better! How on earth do you do these miracles?
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, JulieM said: That’s amazing! That kid must have been quite the missionary That, plus I think the Church really becomes a refuge when we do it right. Where else in their lives do boys between the ages of 12 and 18 get taken seriously. At church, we make them presidents and counsellors and tell them we expect them to do hard things. Everywhere else in their lives, people are telling them what to do ... and automatically assuming they're up to no good. Edited May 10, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan 2
Gray Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 8 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: You’re the one who seems to be claiming he had a string of successive failures before being called into general Church leadership. Prove it. CFR. You're CFRing a claim I never made. I've already mentioned the failed business endeavors he was involved in, which are the only endeavors mentioned in his wiki bio. I never claimed he was never successful. I just can't find any evidence for it in the source I looked in. This wasn't an attack on the man, by the way. But given the way you view the world, obviously you thought it was. If someone mentioned that your high school didn't take state finals one year, would you fight them tooth and nail about it, even if it was true? 2
Gray Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: It seems overly simplistic to me to characterize President Ballard's career as "car dealer." In addition to the family-owned dealership, he was involved in real estate and a number of other business investments. Some succeeded and some didn't. It's not clear to me that he "wasn't particularly successful." Which of his business endeavors (real estate/other business investments, per your statement) were successful? Be specific. This is a formal CFR - support your claim or retract. Fail to comply and I will report you. Edited May 10, 2018 by Gray
Gray Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 9 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: What makes you think they were successive? One happened in the late ‘50s and the other in the mid to late ‘60s. Are you saying he had no other business ventures in the interim ? Prove it. CFR. You quoted me as I was revising. This is what my post says: Quote Again, just basing it on the material in the summary, which shows two significant failures in business prior to his church calling. If you have a more detailed report I'm sure many would be interested in it.
revelstoked Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 Can we move the discussion about an Apostle's historical business dealings to a new thread please? Especially since it has devolved to CFRing. This thread should be about the church and scouting.
Hamba Tuhan Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 8 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: How on earth do you do these miracles? As our bishop at the time has repeatedly said, whenever we have seen miracles in our ward, it has always been a consequence of simply doing what the handbooks and Church leaders instruct us to do. 2
mnn727 Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 10 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: Why? I love Sunday school when I can make it That makes one of us. Seriously though, our ward seems to stick to the same old same old rather than really discussing it. I can get more out of just reading and pondering that weeks scripture (which I do) than going in to class. Judging by the number of people sitting in the gym during SS, waiting for Priesthood to start, quietly reading their scriptures, I'm not the only one.
Storm Rider Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 20 hours ago, ALarson said: But if they move away from doing scout type activities, then you lose the boys who were coming that loved scouting. We have two teenage boys who do not attend on Sunday anymore, they do not attend seminary, but they love scouting and come to the week day activity because of this (they rarely miss). I think you'll get some who will come out more and some who will lose interest now. I get that it's impossible to meet all of their needs and find activities that interest all the boys (and girls). I am looking forward to seeing the new program. I will be supportive of it. But, I hope it's not just more spiritual teaching like they get on Sundays as there needs to be a time when they just get together and have fun and bond (with each other and the leaders)....then you can slip the spiritual messages in at times as well. I just hope it'll be as well organized and supported as the scout program has been. 4 I may be too old to take seriously in this new day and I admit that I may be completely off base. Regardless, I find some young people are adverse to almost all forms of physical exertion or anything that takes them away from their phone or some form of electronic screen. Their world consists of concrete, their performance in a computer game, and an aversion to perspiration. Frankly, I don't think they know enough to make decisions about what they like and don't like. Their exposure to new experiences is so narrow they don't have the ability to make decisions for themselves. At times, these children need to be required to participate in scouting events or similar events. Being a geek may be the new cool way of being, and it may even make you financially rich, but I question whether it aids an individual to be healthy, balanced, or happy. As I write this I remember how my wife complained about how her mother forced her to take five years of piano lessons and to practice every day. She said she hate every day of it, but she can sit down to a piano today and play without thinking. Should we require children to do things they do not like? Absolutely. I have never enjoyed or liked going to the dentist, but I know it is what is best for me. I know that boys are not meant to stay still; they require physical exercise and activity....even when they say they do not like it.
mnn727 Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 13 hours ago, bsjkki said: What area in the world do you live that your quorum can grow by 40-50 boys? Anywhere but Utah.
Popular Post california boy Posted May 10, 2018 Popular Post Posted May 10, 2018 12 hours ago, pogi said: I was never fully invested in the scouting program, but I was fully invested in the youth...and that is what I think really matters. I didn't care if they were advancing towards their eagle or not. If that was important to them, I gave them every opportunity to advance and supported them in it; if not, we had other great stuff to do. What mattered to me was that the boys wanted to come to activities, and that the youth were active, involved, and interested participants in whatever activity we did. That didn't always work out, but I think they appreciate not feeling the pressure to do stuff they are simply not interested in. It truly is amazing how much influence we have on the youth. While I tried to create a loving, fun, accepting atmosphere, I never realized what kind of impact I was having on them. On one occasion, I had one of my boys say, "can I tell you something?" I assured him that he could. He responded with tears in his eyes, "you are like the father that I never had". The sad thing is, this young man had a father...a real dead beat. You never really know what kind of impact you are having on those you serve. I worked with the young men for many years as well, mostly as the teachers quorum advisor. It was my favorite calling. It is the age that boys bridge to young men. I also was not that vested in BSA. I felt like BSA had little time for LDS troops unless they needed money. But I was vested in the concept. Boy Scouts has over 100 merit badges that cover virtually every interest a kid might have. I only had a couple of boys that were interested in getting their eagles. So the presidency would pick one merit badge say for example, photography. Then I would arrange to have the boys go to a professional photography's studio. He would explain basic lighting and the type of commercial photography one might pursue as a career. Afterwards I would tell the boys that if they were interested in getting the photography merit badge, this is what they needed to do to complete the requirements. One of the more fun merit badges we did was the sculpturing merit badge. We actually made a stop action animated little short film that we showed to the ward at the annual Christmas party. Part of it was done with clay figures and part of it was done with live stop action. I still was following the scouting concepts without making it all about merit badges and uniforms. The guys loved it. And I think it opened up their minds to many more career possibilities. It just takes a little creativity to make it work. I hope the new program offers as many broad options for the youth to explore. 9
Hestia Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 Take the thread derail on Ballard's businesses out of this thread or participants will be thread banned.
Daniel2 Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 (edited) I know that for US-based Latter-day Saints, this is a BIG deal. I was raised as an active LDS kid in the US Military community overseas (in Northern Europe, mostly) until i was 18, and Scouting was NEVER part of our LDS young men's activities. My brothers and I dabbled in Scouts in one of the military branches we were associated with for a time, and I enjoyed the camping and merit badge aspects.... but it folded because of lack of interest. Our Young Men group went camping a lot, and did some "scouts type" activities, but we never had the ceremony, merit badges, or pomp and circumstance associated with Baden Powell's organization, which always struck me as oddly military-ish... like... Starship Troopers or even (and I don't mean to invoke Goodwin's law here, so please understand I'm not meaning it in that way) reminiscent of youth groups organized by dictators (a.k.a. Hitler Youth or communist parties), only with an American flair. Don't get me wrong, I know the ideologies are VASTLY different---but the uniforms, the patches, the scarves and advancements.... it was all a little weird when I moved to the states and found out how enmeshed the LDS church's youth were with Scouting in America. In my early days at BYU after moving to the states for the first time, I was somewhat put off by the obsession with whether or not I'd earned an Eagle Scout status.... it was something that was either asked or bragged about by my roommates in interviews for on-campus jobs, and it was frustrating to have to keep explaining that where I came from, earning an Eagle Scout status wasn't even possible, since we didn't have troops. It seems to me that BSA as it's been formerly is a vestige of the past and could use streamlining. That said, I'm not sure youth today are interested enough in it's merits for the organization to survive, even with streamlining. As society has moved into the modern era, the risks of overnight camping, the litigiousness, legalities, and liabilities associated with adult leaders sleeping near/with youth and the occurrences of abuse also seem to be a contributing factor. Edited May 10, 2018 by Daniel2
ksfisher Posted May 10, 2018 Posted May 10, 2018 10 minutes ago, Daniel2 said: As society has moved into the modern era, the risks of overnight camping, the litigiousness, legalities, and liabilities associated with adult leaders sleeping near/with youth and the occurrences of abuse also seem to be a contributing factor. This would seem to be a condemnation of our modern society, that we do not allow our children to participate in activities that had been seen in the past as a normal part of growing up. Children are choosing to spend more and more time indoors playing video games interacting with people who they will never meet.
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