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LDS and BSA are parting ways at the end of 2019


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"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is severing its relationship as a sponsoring organization of Scouting?  This can only be a huge mistake which will end with disastrous results," is a very US-centric take on this state of affairs.  The Church of Jesus Christ has gotten along just fine without Scouting, and vice-versa, in the rest of the world for decades.

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7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I grieve for the loss of the Scouting of yesteryear, not so much for the disconnect from what it has become.

What has it become?  I don't understand what has changed for it, other than allowing kids who are gay, allowing leaders who are gay and now allowing women.  The program is still the same, no?  

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Just now, The Nehor said:

I may be a sucker but I actually believe it when the announcement gave the reason for the change as a desire for a global program and has less to do with icky gays and girls in the US program.

I think with any program the Church really wants to emphasize gender roles.  Perhaps it's merely convenient that the scouts are allowing girls right at this time.  Perhaps there really is nothing to this coincidence at all.  But whatever the case, this really works for the Church which tends toward keeping specific gender roles.  

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2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Hey, now that the church is separating from the boy scouts, I wonder if the church will begin to re-write the history of its past relationship with the scouting organization?  Something like the way the church has disowned and fought against polygamy perhaps?   Will future histories be written where any mention of scouting is scrubbed from official Sunday School manuals?  Will President Monson's lifetime in the scouting program even make it into the future manuals about his teachings?   Will the church try to whitewash its history with scouting?  It will be fun to watch.  🙂  

You're talking gibberish.

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8 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Friends of Scouting 5th Sunday Fundraiser in 2019:

”We did not actually get any donation envelopes because we figured no one would use them but if you want to contribute they have a website or something I think. Just Google it or something. It is a wonderful thing to support and blah, blah, okay no one is buying this. I say these things in the name of.....yeah.....gotta avoid blasphemy. I am done. Please don’t say amen.”

Are there any wards in the Church that still hold Friends of Scouting fifth-Sunday fundraisers? Seriously, I'm curious to know if there are.

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3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I think with any program the Church really wants to emphasize gender roles.  Perhaps it's merely convenient that the scouts are allowing girls right at this time.  Perhaps there really is nothing to this coincidence at all.  But whatever the case, this really works for the Church which tends toward keeping specific gender roles.  

Its a conservative organization that tends to hold onto traditions longer than the culture at large and is slow to change.  Traditional gender roles are only whatever tradition the church chooses to emphasize, in this case 1950s America. 

Who knows what the next tradition we choose to fixate on will be.  In an effort to avoid being "tossed to and fro, and carried about by every wind of doctrine," the church actually is still being tossed to and fro, its just a slower tossing than the rest of society.  Kind of like a washing machine, but on the LOW setting.  :lol:

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11 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

What has it become?  I don't understand what has changed for it, other than allowing kids who are gay, allowing leaders who are gay and now allowing women.  The program is still the same, no?  

Yeah, with all those changes the program is still fundamentally the same -- except that it isn't.

 

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2 minutes ago, cinepro said:

What an interesting announcement.  If anything, it seems to be like a Rorschach test for people.  While we don't know exactly why the Church did it, we can definitely learn a lot about a person when they try and guess why the Church did it.  

So here's my guess.  Honestly, I think the timing was due to one thing:

President Monson Died.

It wasn't the homosexuals, or atheists, or girls.  The Church could have supported the program and done great for another 100 years if it had wanted to.  The BSA was obviously giving the Church latitude to adapt.

So if that's wasn't the problem, then what was?

It's all about the money.  Something that hasn't been brought up is how dang expensive the program is.  I have a 11yo patrol with 4 boys in it, and just buying them badges and conducting the bare minimum of activities can be very expensive.  Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts must account for a huge portion of the Primary and Young Men's budgets.  And this comes at a cost to the Young Women's program (and Primary activities for girls). 

If this change puts the programs for girls and boys on more equal footing, then this could make the programs much more equitable.  Hopefully that doesn't mean it's just making the boy's program (and summer camps) as lame as the girl's program, but instead an improvement for the girls to some sort of middle ground.

The huge risk I see is that the new program will probably be a double-down on trying to get the boys to be spiritual and get testimonies that will lead them to missions and temple marriage.  So it will sort of be a "Seminary with activities" program.  If that's the case, I predict massive attrition in participation.   It will quickly weed out the casuals from the zealots. 

 

I think you're right that President Monson dying was a strong contributing factor.

I think something else that isn't talked about much, is just the change of our culture.  The kinds of things the scouts emphasize aren't of great interest to the younger generations.  In essence, its not really cool anymore, and it wasn't a compelling product.  The market largely determines what is successful and what isn't, and in this case, the market is telling us that Scouting is old and isn't in demand anymore.  

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5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yeah, with all those changes the program is still fundamentally the same -- except that it isn't.

 

How had it changed for you ward or local scouts?  (sincere question)

Can you name some specific things that changed?

Because I honestly had not seen anything actually change over these last few years.  I know there were changes at the top, but nothing really actually affected us on a stake or ward level.

I'm fine with moving on and am looking forward to seeing what the new program will be.  I tend to agree with cinepro's post above though and believe this move has more to do with new leadership coming in (Pres. Monson's passing) and money rather than anything to do with gays or girls.  At least I certainly hope those are not the reasons.

Edited by ALarson
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4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yeah, with all those changes the program is still fundamentally the same -- except that it isn't.

 

So how is scouting in your ward significantly different that it was 30 or 40 years ago? Perhaps some of the activities have changed, as kids may not be interested in the same things today as were interesting in the 70s. But other than the type of activity, I'm truly curious as to what has changed in LDS scouting.

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5 minutes ago, ALarson said:

How had it changed for you ward or local scouts?  (sincere question)

Can you name some specific things that changed?

Because I honestly had not seen anything actually change over these last few years.  I know there were changes at the top, but nothing really actually affected us on a stake or ward level.

 

'Twould have been only a matter of time. Best to get ahead of it now when the split can be amicable.

 

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7 minutes ago, toon said:

So how is scouting in your ward significantly different that it was 30 or 40 years ago? Perhaps some of the activities have changed, as kids may not be interested in the same things today as were interesting in the 70s. But other than the type of activity, I'm truly curious as to what has changed in LDS scouting.

See my response to ALarson.

 

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33 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

What has it become?  I don't understand what has changed for it, other than allowing kids who are gay, allowing leaders who are gay and now allowing women.  The program is still the same, no?  

You've answered your own question. The "wrong" people are now allowed to participate, so now it's all ruined. 

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3 minutes ago, ttribe said:

You've answered your own question. The "wrong" people are now allowed to participate, so now it's all ruined. 

Except that, with regard to LDS troops, that's not true. (I get that your comment might have been sarcastic.) The LDS church has complete control over who it calls and appoints as leaders. The inclusion of girls in scouting would not have applied to LDS scouting, unless the Church wanted it to. And gay and straight kids who maintain the church's moral standards have long been allowed to participate in Church youth programs, and I suspect this will continue to be the case even after the Church leaves scouting.

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31 minutes ago, cinepro said:

The huge risk I see is that the new program will probably be a double-down on trying to get the boys to be spiritual and get testimonies that will lead them to missions and temple marriage.  So it will sort of be a "Seminary with activities" program.  If that's the case, I predict massive attrition in participation.   It will quickly weed out the casuals from the zealots. 

Regardless of the reasoning behind why the Church is distancing itself from Scouting, I agree strongly with your assessment here. The Church I grew up in had a variety of programs that were interesting to young men of all ages and belief levels. Without the scouting program to tie together our group I think our activity rate would have been half what it was. Another big loss, in my opinion, was how much more attention the church paid to competitive church wide (in the USA at least) sporting activities. We bonded together as a group through both the scouting activities and sports competition, bond that have remained strong for decades, even with those who no longer believe and or attend Church.

 

I do not believe this is a good decision in an age where we are struggling to keep young males in the Church after high school. We need to find ways keep programs that are interesting to our youth, not get rid of them.

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48 minutes ago, cinepro said:

What an interesting announcement.  If anything, it seems to be like a Rorschach test for people.  While we don't know exactly why the Church did it, we can definitely learn a lot about a person when they try and guess why the Church did it.  

So here's my guess.  Honestly, I think the timing was due to one thing:

President Monson Died.

It wasn't the homosexuals, or atheists, or girls.  The Church could have supported the program and done great for another 100 years if it had wanted to.  The BSA was obviously giving the Church latitude to adapt.

So if that wasn't the problem, then what was?

It's all about the money.  Something that hasn't been brought up is how dang expensive the program is.  I have a 11yo patrol with 4 boys in it, and just buying them badges and conducting the bare minimum of activities can be very expensive.  Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts must account for a huge portion of the Primary and Young Men's budgets.  And this comes at a cost to the Young Women's program (and Primary activities for girls). 

If this change puts the programs for girls and boys on more equal footing, then this could make the programs much more equitable.  Hopefully that doesn't mean it's just making the boy's program (and summer camps) as lame as the girl's program, but instead an improvement for the girls to some sort of middle ground.

The huge risk I see is that the new program will probably be a double-down on trying to get the boys to be spiritual and get testimonies that will lead them to missions and temple marriage.  So it will sort of be a "Seminary with activities" program.  If that's the case, I predict massive attrition in participation.   It will quickly weed out the casuals from the zealots. 

This also isn't the end of Scouting for LDS boys.  I suspect that any non-LDS troops that have their act together will start recruiting LDS boys to their troops, and the boys and families that join will be amazed at how non-LDS Packs and Troops function when everyone is there because they want to be there and run the program properly.  The difference in focus and energy can be surprising.  And I wouldn't be surprised if many LDS troops remain together and get a different charter.

 

Can you explain what you think is lame about the YW's program?  Sincere question.

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6 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Regardless of the reasoning behind why the Church is distancing itself from Scouting, I agree strongly with your assessment here. The Church I grew up in had a variety of programs that were interesting to young men of all ages and belief levels. Without the scouting program to tie together our group I think our activity rate would have been half what it was. Another big loss, in my opinion, was how much more attention the church paid to competitive church wide (in the USA at least) sporting activities. We bonded together as a group through both the scouting activities and sports competition, bond that have remained strong for decades, even with those who no longer believe and or attend Church.

 

I do not believe this is a good decision in an age where we are struggling to keep young males in the Church after high school. We need to find ways keep programs that are interesting to our youth, not get rid of them.

I think the new program will allow for more flexibility.  Right now you get scouts engaged until about 13 maybe 14 years old and they are for the most part not interested any longer.  It's up to the leaders to find things that will engage the boys after that.  Now you will have leaders who will do things that engage the boys starting at 8.  Scouting was good, and the partnership was inspired, but to think the Lord can't create greater programs and opportunities than scouting is putting a huge limit on the potential of what He and we can do with our youth.

I think scouting has been good.  I think we have stayed with it all these years because it has benefited the boys and was also a great missionary tool.  As we draw closer to the 2nd coming I think we will see a lot of changes in the church to move to higher ground which will cause some attrition to membership unfortunately, however I think we need to move to higher ground and we have to want to do it.  

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4 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Regardless of the reasoning behind why the Church is distancing itself from Scouting, I agree strongly with your assessment here. The Church I grew up in had a variety of programs that were interesting to young men of all ages and belief levels. Without the scouting program to tie together our group I think our activity rate would have been half what it was. Another big loss, in my opinion, was how much more attention the church paid to competitive church wide (in the USA at least) sporting activities. We bonded together as a group through both the scouting activities and sports competition, bond that have remained strong for decades, even with those who no longer believe and or attend Church.

 

I do not believe this is a good decision in an age where we are struggling to keep young males in the Church after high school. We need to find ways keep programs that are interesting to our youth, not get rid of them.

That was my experience with scouting, mostly bonding and making life long friendships. I think that can be accomplished in a different program, but scouting provided a particularly strong framework making it easier for relatively untrained leaders to adopt and implement.

When I was growing up, there were usually two to four kids in our ward's scout troop that were not members and only participated in the scouting side. They joined because they wanted to be involved in scouting and the ward's program was easily accessible, usually because one of their friends or neighbors was a member. They and their parents knew that because of the LDS affiliation, there would be a religious aspect, but because it was still scouting and the uniquely religious aspect wasn't pervasive, it wasn't a problem for them. I'm good friends with some of them to this day, and while most didn't ever join the Church, they have a very positive opinion of it.

When I was a scout leader in our ward's troop about 15 years ago, it was the same, as there was always a couple non-LDS kids participating. Two of them eventually joined the Church and went on missions.

I suspect the new program, whatever it is, won't be as attractive to non-member kids or their parents. It's one thing to have your kid participating in a well known scouting program that is affiliated with the Church but is still scouting. It's another to have them participate in something that is exclusively an LDS program.

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53 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Are there any wards in the Church that still hold Friends of Scouting fifth-Sunday fundraisers? Seriously, I'm curious to know if there are.

Ha!  we did this for years.  I think this is the first year where we didn't do anything special other than ask people to donate.  I have to wonder what the % drop in FOS will be next year.

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I think this change can be good for both the BSA and the church if we let it.

For a while the BSA has been doubling down on the outdoor aspects of it's program.  From simple branding ("Outing is part of Scouting" as in outdoors) to structural changes.  A few years ago they doubled the number of campouts needed to get to first class before rolling it back a bit to deal with our EYO program (I expect this to be rolled back to 6 by 2020).  They also in 2012 changed the camping merit badges to require the 20 nights of camping to be at BSA events, i.e. no more back yard two week eagle pushes.  The program has also been getting more expensive.  Cub scout awards changed to more expensive belt loops and they keep updating books every few years.

Another huge different is the way the scout meetings operate.  Outside the church troop meetings are run by a senior patrol leader who is 15-17 years old leading all the scouts.  Adult leaders really do step back and let the boys lead.  New scouts see patrol leadership modeled by teacher/priest age scouts rather than advisors and age peers.  That and the functioning scout committee are the biggest differences between civic scouts and LDS scouts that cause a lot of tension.

Financially this will have a huge positive impact in ward budgets once fully implemented.  Many units with large primaries and youth programs see an outsize part of the budget (compared to activity days and YW) go to just scout awards, before even considering the cost of the constant camping.  Leaving scouting won't preclude us from going camping, starting campfires, playing with sharp things, tying ropes, or even selling popcorn.  I see it as being more inclusive.  There are several Deacons in my ward who don't come to weeknight activities if it involves wearing a scout shirt or doing rank advancement,  They are always there for joint activities and non-merit badge nights.

As for the changes in 2020, I think we may see some real bold changes.  We may see 50+ year traditions like 2 year class/quorum divisions and the office of teacher (or even deacon!) being retired.  We could see size based cohorts instead of age based cohorts.  It could be anything.

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