LDS and BSA are parting ways at the end of 2019

[Prof]

3 hours ago, revelstoked said:

  And I'm sure "Pine block car races" will be part of the boys program.

I hope so!!!! My pack spent close to a grand on a new aluminum track a few years back. I hope that we will still get some use out of it!!!!!

[mnn727]

On 5/11/2018 at 5:10 PM, Jeanne said:

I live in a neighborhood of young families...I hardly see a child any time of the day in the summer..I remember going out to play..and coming in when it was time for supper.😋

And you didn't have to be a scout to do it.

[Scott Lloyd]

On 5/12/2018 at 1:12 PM, revelstoked said:

I'm sure there will be camping, and outdoors, and hiking, and basketball.  But not as a gating requirement like camping was for Boy Scouts. 

 

I expect it to look like a merger of what the YW and current teacher/priest program is, focused on key areas with activity ideas around each area.  But not "Deacons camp overnight, Teachers backpack, and Priests build their own raft for a river trip" level of prescriptiveness.  And totally able to be all Youth driven, where in advanced cases the leaders are taxis to the church and there to unlock and lock the doors.  And I'm sure "Pine block car races" will be part of the boys program.

Why do you think the pinewood derby is essential?

[Scott Lloyd]

On 5/11/2018 at 3:50 PM, Kenngo1969 said:

Proof positive the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints jes' cain't win, ah guess!  Danged if it does, and danged if it don't. 

And so it goes. 

[revelstoked]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Why do you think the pinewood derby is essential?

I don't think it will be a required part of the program, but will be in a list of things you could do, such as a "build stuff" and/or a "do stuff with your Dad" category.  I would expect it will have broad categories of activities like the YW and current teacher/priest program.  And it will be an example of what could be done rather than a quasi-requirement that it must be done (like the blue & gold banquet, yuck).

There is also generations of tradition in that specific experience that many fathers have fond memories of doing it as a child, and would want to share it with their sons.  Hobby Lobby sells non-BSA approved pine block cars and parts so there is a market for it.  We even did it at a family reunion once too.

If wards don't value the derby, they won't do it.  But the BSA does not have ownership of the derby.  It's not like leaving the BSA means we lose all our traditions.

[RevTestament]

On 5/11/2018 at 3:10 PM, Jeanne said:

I live in a neighborhood of young families...I hardly see a child any time of the day in the summer..I remember going out to play..and coming in when it was time for supper.😋

That's funny. I remember not coming in when it was time for supper, and dad having to come out to drag us in. It seems anymore that I too rarely see kids out. I live right next to a large family, and would sometimes see the boys out feeding the animals, or one of the kids out mowing the lawn. Other than doing those chores though, I rarely saw them. When they were really small, I sometimes did see them on their trampoline. My boys used their trampoline into their high school years. Now there are not a ton of kids in our neighborhood, but there are still a good number of children in our ward. When I was a kid I spent the majority of my time outside and a minority inside watching TV - no video games then. We played ball, hide and seek, etc with the neighbors. Climbed trees a lot. Rode a pony for a few years, went swimming, etc. 

[RevTestament]

12 minutes ago, revelstoked said:

I don't think it will be a required part of the program, but will be in a list of things you could do, such as a "build stuff" and/or a "do stuff with your Dad" category.  I would expect it will have broad categories of activities like the YW and current teacher/priest program.  And it will be an example of what could be done rather than a quasi-requirement that it must be done (like the blue & gold banquet, yuck).

There is also generations of tradition in that specific experience that many fathers have fond memories of doing it as a child, and would want to share it with their sons.  Hobby Lobby sells non-BSA approved pine block cars and parts so there is a market for it.  We even did it at a family reunion once too.

If wards don't value the derby, they won't do it.  But the BSA does not have ownership of the derby.  It's not like leaving the BSA means we lose all our traditions.

I think it practically beyond question that the Church keep the best parts of the scouting program under a new umbrella. Why not? Keep the best and add the rest. I see nothing wrong with that. Pinewood derby was one of the funnest activities for our three boys. Unrelated, but also memorable was a school science project I did with our oldest. I helped him make (but did most of it actually) a vacuum powered hovercraft. He did more of the report part on why it worked. It was definitely the most popular project at school, although they didn't allow it to run during the science fair itself. However, it didn't win the prize. After hours everyone wanted to ride it.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, revelstoked said:

I don't think it will be a required part of the program, but will be in a list of things you could do, such as a "build stuff" and/or a "do stuff with your Dad" category.  I would expect it will have broad categories of activities like the YW and current teacher/priest program.  And it will be an example of what could be done rather than a quasi-requirement that it must be done (like the blue & gold banquet, yuck).

There is also generations of tradition in that specific experience that many fathers have fond memories of doing it as a child, and would want to share it with their sons.  Hobby Lobby sells non-BSA approved pine block cars and parts so there is a market for it.  We even did it at a family reunion once too.

If wards don't value the derby, they won't do it.  But the BSA does not have ownership of the derby.  It's not like leaving the BSA means we lose all our traditions.

I could tolerate continuing it if it truly  were optional. But I’m afraid it has become like school science fair projects in that you’re OK if your dad is talented or fanatical about it but you’re thrown under the bus otherwise. 

This is an opportunity to discard all the baggage from Scouting even as we retain what is worthwhile. I hope we take advantage of the opportunity. 

[RevTestament]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I could tolerate continuing it if it truly  were optional. But I’m afraid it has become like school science fair projects in that you’re OK if your dad is talented or fanatical about it but you’re thrown under the bus otherwise. 

This is an opportunity to discard all the baggage from Scouting even as we retain what is worthwhile. I hope we take advantage of the opportunity. 

I kinda feel like this is a little knock against my school fair project comment. I simply brought that up as an example of memorable and fun things I did with my kids. The pinewood derby was right up there at the very top. My kids made their pinewood derby cars. I merely helped do the initial shaping with a saw, and fine tune them to help them get their best speed. They had a blast making them and racing them. I tried to encourage them to understand principles which would make their cars faster. Simple things like friction were addressed. Being in the Pinewood derby was not mandatory but every boy wanted to do it. It also provided a lesson in losing with dignity. Obviously a large percentage of the boys are not going to win, so I don't really understand your comment about getting thrown under the bus. I think it is inherent in the leaders to teach not to taunt or ridicule the losers. It is an important lesson which I think it is incumbent on leaders to teach. The pinewood derby provides a great environment to teach it. If it hadn't been for the pinewood derby my parental experience would have been poorer. TBH it was just one of the few times I really engaged with my kids in what they were doing in scouts other than camping with them a few times. I wouldn't skip it for the world. 

[toon]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 5:43 PM, mfbukowski said:

Ask your friend if it was revelation, not me. The only other person who would know that is God.

Since you take everything literally I suppose that means the Earth is 6000 years old. I don't believe that.

You're the one who said that it was, so why shouldn't I direct the question to you?

I guess the message I should take is that neither your personal insults nor anything else you say should be taken seriously.

 

[toon]

delete

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by toon

[toon]

double post

Edited May 14, 2018 by toon
double post

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I kinda feel like this is a little knock against my school fair project comment. I simply brought that up as an example of memorable and fun things I did with my kids. The pinewood derby was right up there at the very top. My kids made their pinewood derby cars. I merely helped do the initial shaping with a saw, and fine tune them to help them get their best speed. They had a blast making them and racing them. I tried to encourage them to understand principles which would make their cars faster. Simple things like friction were addressed. Being in the Pinewood derby was not mandatory but every boy wanted to do it. It also provided a lesson in losing with dignity. Obviously a large percentage of the boys are not going to win, so I don't really understand your comment about getting thrown under the bus. I think it is inherent in the leaders to teach not to taunt or ridicule the losers. It is an important lesson which I think it is incumbent on leaders to teach. The pinewood derby provides a great environment to teach it. If it hadn't been for the pinewood derby my parental experience would have been poorer. TBH it was just one of the few times I really engaged with my kids in what they were doing in scouts other than camping with them a few times. I wouldn't skip it for the world. 

I think I get what Scott meant by being thrown under the bus.  Our current ward has never done the pine wood derby but our older wards did and kids that didn't have dads who were using graphite, weighing and precision balancing the cars, and/or professionally designing them to account for wind resistance didn't stand a chance at winning.  Though no one was a poor winner or poor loser, it was still not very exciting because everyone knew who the top contenders would be just because of who their dads were.  

Edited May 14, 2018 by bluebell

[toon]

On ‎5‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 3:36 PM, Prof said:

I hope so!!!! My pack spent close to a grand on a new aluminum track a few years back. I hope that we will still get some use out of it!!!!!

The kids' dads need something to do.

[RevTestament]

28 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I think I get what Scotty meant by being thrown under the bus.  Our current ward has never done the pine wood derby but our older wards did and kids that didn't have dads who were using graphite, weighing and precision balancing the cars, and/or professionally designing them to account for wind resistance didn't stand a chance at winning.  Though no one was a poor winner or poor loser, it was still not very exciting because everyone knew who the top contenders would be just because of who their dads were.  

Things such as slightly out-of-round wheels or just a little bump from the manufacturing process can make a big difference. My kids got to experiment with weighting, etc. Overall it was a great experience for them even though I think one or two didn't win a race. As I recall we only had one mass race track. Other races were 4-6 at a time so once the fastest cars were known, they could be eliminated from some races to give the other cars a chance. We would just announce who would race next. I tried to involve my kids as much as feasible. They did the design, the final shaping, the painting, decals, etc. I can't stop other parents from going overboard, but I don't really feel any in our ward did. Payson was kind of a blue-collar town. If people are going to be poor sports about it though, I could see how it would turn an otherwise fun experience into a negative experience. I view that as part of learning about life. Hopefully though, most scouting groups can maintain a cohesive and fun atmosphere since that is what scouting is suppose to be about. Poor sports can ruin any kind of competitive activity. One of the nice things about the derby is that a kid doesn't have to be athletic to win. It's a different kind of competition than many other scouting activities. 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think I get what Scott meant by being thrown under the bus.  Our current ward has never done the pine wood derby but our older wards did and kids that didn't have dads who were using graphite, weighing and precision balancing the cars, and/or professionally designing them to account for wind resistance didn't stand a chance at winning.  Though no one was a poor winner or poor loser, it was still not very exciting because everyone knew who the top contenders would be just because of who their dads were.  

Bluebell has nailed it much better than I did.

I would only add that regardless of whether there is any taunting or teasing, there has to be a kid who comes in last, one who probably has no idea in advance what's in store for him, and it sucks to be that kid.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, RevTestament said:

That's funny. I remember not coming in when it was time for supper, and dad having to come out to drag us in. It seems anymore that I too rarely see kids out. I live right next to a large family, and would sometimes see the boys out feeding the animals, or one of the kids out mowing the lawn. Other than doing those chores though, I rarely saw them. When they were really small, I sometimes did see them on their trampoline. My boys used their trampoline into their high school years. Now there are not a ton of kids in our neighborhood, but there are still a good number of children in our ward. When I was a kid I spent the majority of my time outside and a minority inside watching TV - no video games then. We played ball, hide and seek, etc with the neighbors. Climbed trees a lot. Rode a pony for a few years, went swimming, etc. 

In my neighbourhood, kids are out all the time...I can hear some right now.  Same with over by my grandkids.  I think it likely feeds on itself.  You have to have kids outside for others to join them.  If the habit has been lost in the area, it may be hard to restart.

Back when I was in elementary school, my dad built us a giant swing set and two story play house.  We had kids over in our yard all the time, but the rest of the backyards were pretty empty for most of the time we lived there (no fences allowed, so it was easy to see out of a couple of dozen houses there was one other swing set hardly used).  Kids did go over to the local parks to play, but when I would go out on long bike rides, I would rarely see anyone out playing (this was in Illinois, but it was the same late in California...heard kids in swimming pools, but not much else safe to play except at the parks).  Otoh, kids were out front my grandma's in Hayward across the bay, so I really think it depends a great deal on the sizes of homes and yards and families and traffic in the area.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Calm

[rongo]

10 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Bluebell has nailed it much better than I did.

I would only add that regardless of whether there is any taunting or teasing, there has to be a kid who comes in last, one who probably has no idea in advance what's in store for him, and it sucks to be that kid.

It's not so bad. In my very brief Cub Scout career, I didn't use any graphite at all on the axles and my car was very crudely done (by me). I was blown away by professional Dad cars, and I finished dead last. It didn't scar me or wound my psyche, though. It just was. 

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, rongo said:

It's not so bad. In my very brief Cub Scout career, I didn't use any graphite at all on the axles and my car was very crudely done (by me). I was blown away by professional Dad cars, and I finished dead last. It didn't scar me or wound my psyche, though. It just was. 

I'm glad you were able to take it in stride. Not everyone is so fortunate.

I reiterate that I'm not calling for wholesale banning of pinewood derbies. Just don't make them mandatory, and maybe cut down on the competitive intensity.

I feel the same about science fair projects.

Edited May 14, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

4 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I kinda feel like this is a little knock against my school fair project comment.

For what it's worth, I hadn't even read your post when I made mine. So my position on science fair projects is independent of what you did or did not say about them. But as is obvious by now, my opinion of mandatory participation in science fairs is down in the cellar along with my opinion of pinewood derbies.

[RevTestament]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

For what it's worth, I hadn't even read your post when I made mine. So my position on science fair projects is independent of what you did or did not say about them. But as is obvious by now, my opinion of mandatory participation in science fairs is down in the cellar along with my opinion of pinewood derbies.

OK. Fair enough. Sorry I kind of jumped the gun there.  I don't think I would support these activities on a mandatory basis either - that might serve to take some of their magic away. I was just speaking from a personal experience with them. As a father they are among the most memorable and happy times I spent with our boys, and I see little reason to just throw them out. These things also gave me an opportunity to introduce my boys to various tools, and some scientific concepts. The hovercraft was very simple - just a sawn piece of particle board, an old plastic shower curtain liner, a large plastic container lid, screws, staples and an outdoor shop vac with the hose on the exhaust side which also served as a seat. But this thing attracted requests to take it to Church etc. My boys all had tons of fun with it, and Carl really appreciated my help. From the pinewood derby my boys learned a little about ratios between weight and friction, the concept of the center of gravity and the like. It was a great experience for them as well even if they didn't all win. They all remembered their cars with a bit of nostalgia. However, if someone doesn't want to participate in this activity, I think it would definitely be "wrong" to force them to. That would just ruin the whole reason for doing these types of things. I just want to point out our experience and the many benefits of these types of activities. If, for instance, a deacons' quorum wanted to do this activity, I think they should plan it. The right direction from a leader would also be important - I don't think a competitive nature should be emphasized. I think this type of planning would help to make sure the event is a success and a good learning experience.  

[Scott Lloyd]

13 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

OK. Fair enough. Sorry I kind of jumped the gun there.  I don't think I would support these activities on a mandatory basis either - that might serve to take some of their magic away. I was just speaking from a personal experience with them. As a father they are among the most memorable and happy times I spent with our boys, and I see little reason to just throw them out. These things also gave me an opportunity to introduce my boys to various tools, and some scientific concepts. The hovercraft was very simple - just a sawn piece of particle board, an old plastic shower curtain liner, a large plastic container lid, screws, staples and an outdoor shop vac with the hose on the exhaust side which also served as a seat. But this thing attracted requests to take it to Church etc. My boys all had tons of fun with it, and Carl really appreciated my help. From the pinewood derby my boys learned a little about ratios between weight and friction, the concept of the center of gravity and the like. It was a great experience for them as well even if they didn't all win. They all remembered their cars with a bit of nostalgia. However, if someone doesn't want to participate in this activity, I think it would definitely be "wrong" to force them to. That would just ruin the whole reason for doing these types of things. I just want to point out our experience and the many benefits of these types of activities. If, for instance, a deacons' quorum wanted to do this activity, I think they should plan it. The right direction from a leader would also be important - I don't think a competitive nature should be emphasized. I think this type of planning would help to make sure the event is a success and a good learning experience.  

I'm glad you had good experiences with science fairs and pinewood derbies. I just think both have gotten out of hand over the years.

And even if participation in an event is not officially mandatory, it can be de facto mandatory through social pressure.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm glad you were able to take it in stride. Not everyone is so fortunate.

I reiterate that I'm not calling for wholesale banning of pinewood derbies. Just don't make them mandatory, and maybe cut down on the competitive intensity.

I feel the same about science fair projects.

One ward I was in had a ward activity where every age group beyond Primary (High Priests, Elders, Relief Society, Priests, Teachers, Deacons, Laurels, Miamaids, and Beehives) brought up to two cars each. It was fun and you avoided loser syndrome due to the group effort thing. If I remember right the Miamaids won (due to one of those dedicated dads and her daughter being really into engineering the perfect car).

[thatjimguy]

On 5/12/2018 at 3:36 AM, Calm said:

In the military perhaps from what I have been told, what other doors were you thinking.

Jobs mainly, but social status too. Eagle carries a lot of weight for young kids and it still carries on into adulthood. The name says something about you just as a US Marine would mean something even once they are no longer in active service.

[rongo]

10 hours ago, thatjimguy said:

Jobs mainly, but social status too. Eagle carries a lot of weight for young kids and it still carries on into adulthood. The name says something about you just as a US Marine would mean something even once they are no longer in active service.

Not any more. Society has shifted, and we all know many, many Eagles who were incompetent and didn't do much, if any, of the work (merit badge clinic-ization of Scouting, complements of the Church. Do non-LDS troops have merit badge mills?).

The state of Eagles in our stake is such that we even had a special bishoprics/stake presidency meeting to discuss why so many of our Eagles were not going on missions (conventional wisdom was that it was supposed to be a "key indicator"). Most of the Eagles in our stake have been the least-impressive young men. As this phenomenon becomes the experience of more and more people, you end up with a feeling that Eagle doesn't mean anything.