LDS and BSA are parting ways at the end of 2019

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, RevTestament said:

I know as a teen one of the huge things I liked about Church was the activities - specifically, the dances. I wasn't much of a basketball player, but I enjoyed that later to some extent.  The Church gave me a new aspect to social life which had been lacking. I didn't do scouting stuff - I don't really even know how active our troops were. It didn't seem my dad encouraged that much. But we had Church friends over some, and did our own activities with them. One of the things about scouting is that fairly recently it went from expensive to very expensive. While that may not be an issue for many Utah families, for many other families - especially international families that is a huge issue. It is not really fair for the Church to place so much emphasis on the program when many around the world feel they cannot afford to participate. Basketball doesn't cost participants really anything. Nor do dances. There are some relatively minor expenses to the Church. Once scouting began to outsource everything, it became very expensive. We definitely noticed the change as this happened when the last of my boys were in the program. Scouting was beginning to place a strain on ward budgets, and cause some inequities in some areas between young women's budgets and Aaronic priesthood budgets. As much as our boys enjoyed cub scouts, they also quickly lost interest in the scouts at about the junior high level, and certainly by the high school level. So how much scouting is really helping to retain our young men is debatable. Hopefully, the Church can develop something more responsive to this age group. I believe developing its own program will allow the Church's activities to be more flexible and responsive to our youth rather than trying to hammer all youth activities into a square hole. The program was becoming more secularized as well. I suppose the Church can always go back to scouting, but I doubt that will happen. 

It was stupidly expensive.  A year ago we had to buy my 13 year old a new shirt and a book.  It was $50 for those two (pretty mandatory) things.

Edited May 9, 2018 by bluebell

[Gray]

5 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I would wager that all of the apostles could (or could have in the case of the older ones) leave their current employer and find more money elsewhere. 

Russell M. Nelson, surgeon. Definitely, at least back when he was practicing.

Dallin H. Oaks, BYU president; state supreme court. For sure.

Henry B. Eyring , associate business professor. Probably not.   

M. Russell Ballard, car dealer, not particularly successful. Probably not.

Jeffrey R. Holland, BYU president. For sure.

Dieter F. Uchtdorf, SVP Flight Operations. For sure.    

David A. Bednar, President, BYU Idaho. For sure.    

Quentin L. Cook, Vice Chair, Sutter Health. For sure.     

D. Todd Christofferson, Associate General Council. Probably.
    
Neil L. Andersen   VP, Morton Plant Health System. For sure.

Ronald A. Rasband, COO Huntsman Chemical. For sure.    

Gary E. Stevenson ???? didn't find anything on his career
    
Dale G. Renlund, medical director of the Utah Transplantation Affiliated Hospitals Cardiac Transplant Program. For sure.   

Gerrit W. Gong, China Chair and Asia Director of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Possibly.     
     
Ulisses Soares, auditor/accountant. Probably not.

[bluebell]

39 minutes ago, pogi said:

Even worse is planning and preparing for a camp-out, reserving and paying for a campground, planning meals and purchasing food, taking work off so that we can leave early Friday morning, taking all the boys to walmart to get fishing licences, preparing all the fishing gear, packing all my gear, showing up at the church early Friday morning to load all the gear from the camping shed into our trailer, and only having one other leader show up...no boys...ever...showed...up!!!  This happened to me 2 times!  This was after verbal commitments and reminder calls to boys and parents.  What the...!

How frustrating!  I think this is indicative of a general change in attitudes where people don't take commitments very seriously anymore.  My boys have gone to plenty of activities for the two reasons of 1) "You said you would be there so you will be." and 2) "One of your responsibilities is to support your quorum even when you don't want to."

[ALarson]

7 minutes ago, bluebell said:

My interaction with the YM's program is fairly limited (being a girl and all) but from what i've seen and been told, we don't lose any YM when they transition out of scouts when they leave deacons quorum and become teachers in our ward.  The teacher's quorum is big and most of the YM in it are active.  The same seems to be true for the Priest's quorum (my son is a priest and the same kids seem to be at all of his activities that were there when he was a deacon).  So, in our ward (and I know that every ward is different), I don't know that there are any boys who will stop coming when scouting stops being included.  As long as they still get to camp and hike and stuff (which seems likely given the YM leaders in the program right now and how Teachers and Priests operate right now), it shouldn't make much of a difference.

Why are their quorums still doing scouts?  At the age they are (if they are old enough for seminary) they wouldn't really be in a scout troop anymore anyway.  Or is your ward still doing older scouts for some reason?  I know it is hard for youth like that.  So many different needs and no program can meet all of them. 

From the church's perspective though, if the youth aren't gaining a testimony and aren't developing a relationship with Heavenly Father and their Savior, then the worth of scouts to them is very much in question, even if it get's some inactive YM into the church.  From that perspective, there isn't a lot to lose in trying something new.

We have a great time at our weekly YW activities, manage to spend at least 1 Wednesday a month on service, and are very well attended (probably 80-90% for most Wednesday nights, including the service ones).  The Young women will even have an opportunity to go camping 2-4 times this year (depending on their age, older girls get more opportunities than the younger girls) so there is precedent for that being very possible for YM even without scouts.   

All good thoughts and input (and I agree with most of what you say).  Each ward is different and I know it's impossible to find activities that ALL of the YM (or YW) will love and want to attend.  Sounds like you run an excellent program for your YW with a good balance of fun and spiritual and service.  I hope that's similar to what will replace the scouting program (that has been very successful at getting the YM out in my ward).

(In answer to your question regarding the boys who attend weekly activities, but don't come on Sundays anymore.  Our YM leaders are still doing mostly scout type activities and this brings them out.)  

 

[ksfisher]

3 minutes ago, Gray said:

Henry B. Eyring , associate business professor. Probably not.   

 

President Eyring was president of Ricks College from  1971 to 1977.  If he had stayed on the university/college president career track I would imagine his salary at retirement would have been much more than his church stipend.

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, Gray said:

Gary E. Stevenson ???? didn't find anything on his career

"Prior to his call as a general authority, Stevenson worked as the chief operating officer of ICON Health & Fitness. He has also served on the Marriott School of Management National Advisory Council and the Utah State University Foundation Board."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_E._Stevenson

[stemelbow]

30 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I would wager that all of the general authorities could (or could have in the case of the older ones) leave their current employer and find more money elsewhere. 

Yes, companies are eager to pay large sums of money to 93 year old retired doctors to run their business.  

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Gray said:

Russell M. Nelson, surgeon. Definitely, at least back when he was practicing.

Dallin H. Oaks, BYU president; state supreme court. For sure.

Henry B. Eyring , associate business professor. Probably not.   

M. Russell Ballard, car dealer, not particularly successful. Probably not.

Jeffrey R. Holland, BYU president. For sure.

Dieter F. Uchtdorf, SVP Flight Operations. For sure.    

David A. Bednar, President, BYU Idaho. For sure.    

Quentin L. Cook, Vice Chair, Sutter Health. For sure.     

D. Todd Christofferson, Associate General Council. Probably.
    
Neil L. Andersen   VP, Morton Plant Health System. For sure.

Ronald A. Rasband, COO Huntsman Chemical. For sure.    

Gary E. Stevenson ???? didn't find anything on his career
    
Dale G. Renlund, medical director of the Utah Transplantation Affiliated Hospitals Cardiac Transplant Program. For sure.   

Gerrit W. Gong, China Chair and Asia Director of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Possibly.     
     
Ulisses Soares, auditor/accountant. Probably not.

Henry B. Eyring , was the president of a college and also has a B.S. degree in physics from the University of Utah, a master of business administration, and a doctor of business administration degrees from Harvard University.  If he hadn't stopped his career to serve in the quorum, he likely would not be working as an associate business professor.

Elder Ballard had been an extremely successful car dealer before the whole Edsel thing.  The bottom fell out of that in the 1950s, but he wasn't called to be an apostle until the 1980s.  I wonder what he did for those 30 years?  I haven't been able to find that out.

 

[RevTestament]

2 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I would wager that all of the apostles could (or could have in the case of the older ones) leave their current employer and find more money elsewhere. 

Because the Lord calls by social popularity and earning ability apparently. 

Y'know that is actually not a bad idea. It would certainly put them on par with the rest of the Church priesthood.

Mosiah 2:14 And even I, myself, have labored with mine own hands that I might serve you, and that ye should not be laden with taxes, and that there should nothing come upon you which was grievous to be borne—and of all these things which I have spoken, ye yourselves are witnesses this day.

[ksfisher]

8 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Yes, companies are eager to pay large sums of money to 93 year old retired doctors to run their business.  

That's why I said "or could have."

[Scott Lloyd]

22 minutes ago, Gray said:

Russell M. Nelson, surgeon. Definitely, at least back when he was practicing.

Dallin H. Oaks, BYU president; state supreme court. For sure.

Henry B. Eyring , associate business professor. Probably not.   

M. Russell Ballard, car dealer, not particularly successful. Probably not.

Jeffrey R. Holland, BYU president. For sure.

Dieter F. Uchtdorf, SVP Flight Operations. For sure.    

David A. Bednar, President, BYU Idaho. For sure.    

Quentin L. Cook, Vice Chair, Sutter Health. For sure.     

D. Todd Christofferson, Associate General Council. Probably.
    
Neil L. Andersen   VP, Morton Plant Health System. For sure.

Ronald A. Rasband, COO Huntsman Chemical. For sure.    

Gary E. Stevenson ???? didn't find anything on his career
    
Dale G. Renlund, medical director of the Utah Transplantation Affiliated Hospitals Cardiac Transplant Program. For sure.   

Gerrit W. Gong, China Chair and Asia Director of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Possibly.     
     
Ulisses Soares, auditor/accountant. Probably not.

It seems overly simplistic to me to characterize President Ballard's career as "car dealer." In addition to the family-owned dealership, he was involved in real estate and a number of other business investments. Some succeeded and some didn't. It's not clear to me that he "wasn't particularly successful."

 

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It seems overly simplistic to me to characterize President Ballard's career as "car dealer." In addition to the family-owned dealership, he was involved in real estate and a number of other business investments. Some succeeded and some didn't. It's not clear to me that he "wasn't particularly successful."

 

The greatest success is success accomplished in the home anywho.  

[ksfisher]

Just now, RevTestament said:

Because the Lord calls by social popularity and earning ability apparently.

My observation is that the general authorities have successfully managed businesses, schools, people, programs, etc before their call.  Our current economy rewards this. 

A firm testimony of Christ is surely the most important qualification, but an apostle or other general authority needs to have the skills to do the work to which they are assigned. 

[Scott Lloyd]

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Henry B. Eyring , was the president of a college and also has a B.S. degree in physics from the University of Utah, a master of business administration, and a doctor of business administration degrees from Harvard University.  If he hadn't stopped his career to serve in the quorum, he likely would not be working as an associate business professor.

Elder Ballard had been an extremely successful car dealer before the whole Edsel thing.  The bottom fell out of that in the 1950s, but he wasn't called to be an apostle until the 1980s.  I wonder what he did for those 30 years?  I haven't been able to find that out.

 

Real estate, among other things.

He was involved with Art Linkletter, Danny Thomas, Bob Cummings and other Hollywood celebreties in the Valley Music Hall in Bountiful, Utah, a theater-in-the-round that specialized in family entertainment. The business ultimately failed financially, but the investors had opportunities to recoup the money they had put into it. The facility was sold to the Church and, today, is the Bountiful Regional Center.

And maybe I'm wrong, but I've never had the impression that the Edsel venture ruined him, though he admits it was an unwise decision. I thought the car dealership survived it.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, cinepro said:

In all my years in the Church and on the internet, I've heard girls who were friends, relatives and online acquaintances say that they wish they could participate (or could have participated) in some aspect of the Young Men's activities (or that the Young Women's activities and camps had the same selection and planning given to the boy's activities). 

In that same time period, I have never heard a guy say they wish they could participate in any of the young women's activities.

In the seventies..I know an entire Stake of young women (me included) would have loved to go river rafting with the guys...instead of camp for a couple of days.

[RevTestament]

3 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

My observation is that the general authorities have successfully managed businesses, schools, people, programs, etc before their call.  Our current economy rewards this. 

Well, right now I am feeling a little too "managed." I am kind of tired of it, but I am sure the Lord has other ideas.

[stemelbow]

10 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

That's why I said "or could have."

Oh now you're expecting me to read whatever you type in parentheses too?  😋

[toon]

45 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

"Was" is the important word here.

And yet the critics will say that the church is no longer guided by revelation.

Change is proof that it is.

Does that meant that BSA, with all the changes it has made, is guided by revelation?

Other institution that have changed and, thus, are guided by revelation -- both the Democratic and Republican parties. My friend who had gender reassignment surgery, personal revelation?

[Jeanne]

Just curious of any of you have sons in the former that feels like this is a bad idea...yuck...girls??  Or ...yeah...girls!!

[Prof]

6 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

My observation is that the general authorities have successfully managed businesses, schools, people, programs, etc before their call.  Our current economy rewards this. 

A firm testimony of Christ is surely the most important qualification, but an apostle or other general authority needs to have the skills to do the work to which they are assigned. 

Agreed. Sometimes I see evidence of this in my ward only from the opposite view. I see people who have an excellent testimony, but have no skill at working with people and doing the business at hand.

[pogi]

41 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I get it.  My dad was scoutmaster in our ward for years (over a decade if you add it all up) and he still get's grown men that he hasn't seen since they were 12 coming into town and visiting him, telling him out much all of those memories mean to them.  When the leaders are invested, it is an amazing thing.  

I was never fully invested in the scouting program, but I was fully invested in the youth...and that is what I think really matters.  I didn't care if they were advancing towards their eagle or not.  If that was important to them, I gave them every opportunity to advance and supported them in it; if not, we had other great stuff to do. What mattered to me was that the boys wanted to come to activities, and that the youth were active, involved, and interested participants in whatever activity we did.  That didn't always work out, but I think they appreciate not feeling the pressure to do stuff they are simply not interested in.  

It truly is amazing how much influence we have on the youth.  While I tried to create a loving, fun, accepting atmosphere, I never realized what kind of impact I was having on them.  On one occasion, I had one of my boys say, "can I tell you something?"  I assured him that he could.  He responded with tears in his eyes, "you are like the father that I never had".  The sad thing is, this young man had a father...a real dead beat.  You never really know what kind of impact you are having on those you serve.  

[Gray]

1 hour ago, ksfisher said:

President Eyring was president of Ricks College from  1971 to 1977.  If he had stayed on the university/college president career track I would imagine his salary at retirement would have been much more than his church stipend.

Thanks, I missed that!

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

It seems overly simplistic to me to characterize President Ballard's career as "car dealer." In addition to the family-owned dealership, he was involved in real estate and a number of other business investments. Some succeeded and some didn't. It's not clear to me that he "wasn't particularly successful."

 

The Wikipedia summary made it sound like a serious of unsuccessful ventures, including the real estate stuff.

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

Russell M. Nelson, surgeon. Definitely, at least back when he was practicing.

Dallin H. Oaks, BYU president; state supreme court. For sure.

Henry B. Eyring , associate business professor. Probably not.   

M. Russell Ballard, car dealer, not particularly successful. Probably not.

Jeffrey R. Holland, BYU president. For sure.

Dieter F. Uchtdorf, SVP Flight Operations. For sure.    

David A. Bednar, President, BYU Idaho. For sure.    

Quentin L. Cook, Vice Chair, Sutter Health. For sure.     

D. Todd Christofferson, Associate General Council. Probably.
    
Neil L. Andersen   VP, Morton Plant Health System. For sure.

Ronald A. Rasband, COO Huntsman Chemical. For sure.    

Gary E. Stevenson ???? didn't find anything on his career
    
Dale G. Renlund, medical director of the Utah Transplantation Affiliated Hospitals Cardiac Transplant Program. For sure.   

Gerrit W. Gong, China Chair and Asia Director of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Possibly.     
     
Ulisses Soares, auditor/accountant. Probably not.

Good point, but I think age would be a problem for many of them.  You typically don't see 75+ yr old people in the workforce these days.  

[rongo]

8 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Good point, but I think age would be a problem for many of them.  You typically don't see 75+ yr old people in the workforce these days.  

That's the thing. When people say, "They would make so much more than $120,000 a year doing something else," my thought is: in retirement? In their 80s? And the $120,000 the Church pays them is on top of their pensions they already get, plus the social security they already get. It seems really superfluous and redundant to me, and mainly forms a means of providing a generous inheritance to their descendants than a "living stipend" for them (with their expenses already being paid or reimbursed).

I'm confident that none of them really needs to be paid by the Church. They already a) own their homes and cars, and b) are retired and drawing social security and pensions. Many already have wealth of their own, independent of retirement income. The "living stipend" (or "parsonage," as it is termed on the stub) is simply above and beyond what they already have, and their needs are already met.

I look at my parents.  They are retired and *only* have social security (about $2400 a month). They served a mission to Poland and returned last March, and are leaving again to serve somewhere in Eastern Europe again for two years. Their retirement almost exactly pays for their missions, and when they return, it is sufficient for their needs. If my dad were called to be a general authority, they would sell their house and move to Salt Lake and could live on just their social security alone. Expenses related to traveling to stakes and missions every weekend would be paid by the Church (or perhaps, reimbursed). What in the world would they need $120,000 a year for?