Woman Accusing Joseph Bishop to File Suit (Against Bishop & LDS Church)

[Calm]

Quote

 I seem to remember thinking that the indecent occurred in 1983 and the reporting occurred in 1987. And I recall one of the articles saying there was a four year statute of limitations. Had the statute of limitations passed by the time the first church leader been made aware of it? If so, that might account for what it was never reported to the police and only to Elder Assay (sp?). 

85 for the abuse, she reported it after she got home from her mission in 87.

The bishop said he never reported it to anyone.  And he explained he thought it was nonsense (incoherent and something else iirc and anyone in Bishop's position would have been so vetted it was unreasonable to him to think he could do such a thing).

Edited March 24, 2018 by Calm

[Amulek]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

85 for the abuse, she reported it after she got home from her mission in 87.

The bishop said he never reported it to anyone.  And he explained he thought it was nonsense (incoherent and something else iirc and anyone in Bishop's position would have been so vetted it was unreasonable to him to think he could do such a thing).

Thanks! I remember the bishop saying the accusation wasn't 'internally consistent' as well. I just thought I may have missed something with the timelines. They are certainly a little tricky to keep straight. 

[Jeanne]

If she loses this case, it will be far worse for the church...there will not be a female in any ward that will sit down and talk to anybody.

[Lemuel]

22 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I decided to run a test to analyze your post:

 

Seriously you give this guy the benefit of every doubt while insinuating she is crazy the whole time and now you want to pretend you are the voice of reason?

 

Your GlaDOS reference is both acknowledged and appreciated.

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

If she loses this case, it will be far worse for the church...there will not be a female in any ward that will sit down and talk to anybody.

This isn't even close to true.  Whether or not she wins or loses a civil case won't make a difference to most of the women in the church about how they feel about priesthood leaders.

[Danzo]

2 hours ago, ttribe said:

That's not a defense.

Actually for a tort claim, it can be

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person

[ttribe]

2 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Actually for a tort claim, it can be

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person

And, you think a reasonable person defense would apply to a failure to report an alleged rape, or attempted rape?  Really?

[provoman]

1984

basement at the MTC

that contained a bed

and ponographic films

the accused rapist is the MTC Mission President?

Theae are some of the key issues a jury or judge would have to consider when asking - without presentism judgement - if the bishop’s not reporting the allegation was reasonable.

The bishop she brought this up to said he did not report it, in part because it was so illogical.

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by provoman

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, provoman said:

1984

basement at the MTC

that contained a bed

and ponographic films

the accused rapist is the MTC Mission President?

Theae are some of the key issues a jury or judge would have to consider when asking - without presentism judgement - if the bishop’s not reporting the allegation was reasonable.

The bishop she brought this up to said he did not report it, in part because it was so illogical.

 

We clearly have a difference of opinion on this one.

[juliann]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Excellent points all, Analytics, and it is asking a lot of young people to act like adults in such controlled circumstances.  However, it is actually quite easy for a missionary trainee at MTC to simply walk off campus and use any available phone.  Dialing 911 is free and immediate. One would only do that in extreme circumstances anyhow.  Disobeying the rules seems irrelevant in such cases.

 

And to what end? At some point, men using their own experience base, need to stop telling women what they "should" do because that is what men feel safe doing. In the 80s, this woman got the treatment women were used to getting, the woman is suspect, the man is protected. I don't know how many times the low rates of reporting have to be mentioned to get that to connect. 

Quote

I recall the tight restrictions in Marine Corps boot camp.  Even with that, however, we had young men who wrote a letter to their congressman and got immediate results.  Where there's a will, there's a way, we used to say.  We also had the absolute right to "request mast," which was the power to immediately see the commanding officer (usually the Captain) to complain about anything. We were young and stupid, but we all knew not to use such power for small matters.  Too bad that Mormon parents don't each their children to exhibit some backbone and independence.

I am bewildered how this is supposed to relate to a young woman being raped by a Mission President who had no recourse beyond her bishop. Who was only concerned about this great man's reputation. She. Did.  Everything. Right.  She went to the bishop. She went to the police. She kept trying for THIRTY dang years with no results! I think her will is demonstrated by the fact she didn't just kill herself. 

[juliann]

4 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I hear a lot of clamoring for changes and some of these changes I find impractical or the cure about as bad as the disease.

The courts will do what they will. I doubt she will go after the church though. Proving negligence this long after the fact would be even harder than winning a civil case against him and I doubt she can win there.

Of course she will go after the church. There is a long enough list of blabbers to media to provide anything necessary to prove negligence. Start with the bishop who is still casually explaining that he didn't want to ruin this monster abuser's reputation and didn't report him. Add the next victim to that.

[ttribe]

14 minutes ago, juliann said:

And to what end? At some point, men using their own experience base, need to stop telling women what they "should" do because that is what men feel safe doing. In the 80s, this woman got the treatment women were used to getting, the woman is suspect, the man is protected. I don't know how many times the low rates of reporting have to be mentioned to get that to connect. 

I am bewildered how this is supposed to relate to a young woman being raped by a Mission President who had no recourse beyond her bishop. Who was only concerned about this great man's reputation. She. Did.  Everything. Right.  She went to the bishop. She went to the police. She kept trying for THIRTY dang years with no results! I think her will is demonstrated by the fact she didn't just kill herself. 

It's warranted to say "damn" here...I think it fits just fine. 

[juliann]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I know. I was just pointing that out because there is almost no legally required mandatory reporting for adults being abused.

No, but there is enough church rhetoric that leaders are to be supported, called from God, they know best, should be followed even if we disagree, etc. that there is certainly an institutional endorsement of them. The church put a snake on the sidewalk and didn't remove it even when it was given notice. If this guy lives in Arizona, no jury is going to give a church a pass. 

[Avatar4321]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

If she loses this case, it will be far worse for the church...there will not be a female in any ward that will sit down and talk to anybody.

Why? I doubt the sisters of the church are going to assume every authority figure is going to assault her

[juliann]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

If she loses this case, it will be far worse for the church...there will not be a female in any ward that will sit down and talk to anybody.

I'm pretty sure my experience with leadership is the norm. I have had one, maybe two bishops who didn't help me. I have had more who probably saved me when I was this victim's age. I had at least three extraordinary experiences that I consider truly inspired. 

I share the concern of a growing body of women, however. The church has to, HAS to stop elevating men at the expense of women. They have to stop the modesty nonsense. They have to give women a means of speaking up rather than just telling them they should and they have to stop telling abused women to go talk to a man without further recourse, they do have to adjust with the fact that there will be some Joe Bishops lurking in the corner. And so on. 

But this is quite apart from how inspired and hardworking the vast, vast majority of bishops are. My current bishop is very tuned into this kind of stuff. 

[Duncan]

33 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Why? I doubt the sisters of the church are going to assume every authority figure is going to assault her

Would they trust the leaders to do something if they report abuse? How many leaders didn't believe this lady? If anything legal was going to happen, it should have happened then and this would have been old news and he's be exed. For me, I hope he gets disciplined for all this. You can't unring that bell

[Duncan]

35 minutes ago, juliann said:

I'm pretty sure my experience with leadership is the norm. I have had one, maybe two bishops who didn't help me. I have had more who probably saved me when I was this victim's age. I had at least three extraordinary experiences that I consider truly inspired. 

I share the concern of a growing body of women, however. The church has to, HAS to stop elevating men at the expense of women. They have to stop the modesty nonsense. They have to give women a means of speaking up rather than just telling them they should and they have to stop telling abused women to go talk to a man without further recourse, they do have to adjust with the fact that there will be some Joe Bishops lurking in the corner. And so on. 

But this is quite apart from how inspired and hardworking the vast, vast majority of bishops are. My current bishop is very tuned into this kind of stuff. 

I would be selective of who I told certain stuff to

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

And to what end? At some point, men using their own experience base, need to stop telling women what they "should" do because that is what men feel safe doing. In the 80s, this woman got the treatment women were used to getting, the woman is suspect, the man is protected. I don't know how many times the low rates of reporting have to be mentioned to get that to connect. 

I am bewildered how this is supposed to relate to a young woman being raped by a Mission President who had no recourse beyond her bishop. Who was only concerned about this great man's reputation. She. Did.  Everything. Right.  She went to the bishop. She went to the police. She kept trying for THIRTY dang years with no results! I think her will is demonstrated by the fact she didn't just kill herself. 

As I said, it would be nice if Mormon parents would teach their children (daughters included) to be independent and disobedient when appropriate.  That certainly isn't the norm, and the results are predictable.  I have noticed over a lifetime that women (not just Mormon women) make strong efforts to be "nice" and cooperative with men.  They seem almost fearful of offending men in some way.  I much prefer women who are sassy, independent, and cooperative only when it makes sense.

I have a younger sister who models powerful and self-assertive behavior for her granddaughters.  And they love her and admire her for it.

My late wife was likewise very strong and outspoken:  Before she passed on, she worked at the State Hospital in Provo as a psychiatric nurse with gravitas.  Sometimes she would meet some patient roaming the halls at night, and she would tell him to get back in his room.  At that he might say, "I'm Jesus Christ, and I can do what I want."  She would instantly reply, "Well, I'm God the Father.  Now get back in your room!!"  And they would meekly go.

Someone is going to have to change their behavior if we are to make progress in this area, juliann.  If all we do is blame men, then there will never be any change.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, provoman said:

1984

basement at the MTC

that contained a bed

and ponographic films

the accused rapist is the MTC Mission President?

Theae are some of the key issues a jury or judge would have to consider when asking - without presentism judgement - if the bishop’s not reporting the allegation was reasonable.

The bishop she brought this up to said he did not report it, in part because it was so illogical.

 

Also her past history if she shared that.

Many people don't understand how victims can be targeted by multiple offenders, sometimes just by looking at them.  Others may have see her abuse by her stepfather as leading her to becoming promiscuous and thus more of a willing participant.  

Edited March 24, 2018 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, omni said:

Wasn't this before Catholic Church and BSA scandals?  

It's my understanding that a lot of the controls we see in place today (e.g. A bishop must call the hotline after any confession / reporting of abuse) were a result of systemic abuse coverups that we're exposed in the 90s and 2000s.

The LDS Church had its own series of similar problems and resulting lawsuits.  Those of us who spent a great deal of time studying that understand it all too  well.

3 hours ago, omni said:

Perhaps Asay was involved in a coverup  or more likely it could have been that he simply didn't believe the woman (just like the two singles ward bishops).

In other words, the Church appears to have been handling abuse just like most other large institutions were at the time.

Yes, the learning curve was a rough one for the LDS and the Catholics.  In Asay's case, if the evidence shows him guilty then by all means, hang him.  However, let us at least look at the hard evidence first.  Robespierre should not be our guide.

3 hours ago, omni said:

Of course, if you're claiming to be God's one true church, then I'm not sure the hey-everybody-else-was-doing-it excuse really works.

The Brethren have not made that excuse at all, and have been very much chastened by reality.  Whenever violations of that sort take place, the first stop should be the local police station without equivocation.  God would want it that way.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, rpn said:

.........................

And yes, if LDS families are parenting or displaying force, compulsion and/or blind obedience, then they should stop.   We all should challenge those actions when they are spoken of with approval by our peers at church.  More importantly, we should identify techniques that support informed discipleship, and model them.

Whenever I insist on this board that we should all exhibit independent judgment, regardless of the consequences, I get a lot of pushback from the faithful who are sure that this is indicative of apostasy.  All of us need to learn to "just say no."  So what if some ward members get angry?  So what if a leader is disappointed in us?  Just be yourself.

[Duncan]

One thing I think we can all agree on is that Eric Hawkins had a very busy week

[cinepro]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

What should they have done? It probably looked like a “he said, she said” situation. There were no witnesses

 

On a much, much smaller scale, I recently had a female employee make a complaint about a male coworker making a sexually inappropriate comment to her.  The first thing I did was privately talk to all the other female employees on that shift and ask them if they had anything they needed to share about anyone making inappropriate comments.  Turns out, several did and they hadn't reported it because they just brushed it off. 

So one thing the Church could do is contact (phone or email) every woman who was at the MTC in the early 1980s and say "Hey, we've had some complaints about one of the leaders at the MTC.  If you experienced anything unusual during your time there that you would like to share, please contact this person at Kirton and McConkie..."  That wouldn't be the end of the investigation, but it would be a good start.

[juliann]

25 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Someone is going to have to change their behavior if we are to make progress in this area, juliann.  If all we do is blame men, then there will never be any change.

I am going to counter that. If we don't for the first time start admitting where the problem is, there will never be change. In fact, it will get worse. That is why we have women's movements like MeToo. We are done with being "nice."  I listened to a leadership training video that is only open to church people. In it, the head of church HR said exactly what I am saying after he used the term "gender bias." He held his hand in front of his face and said with no equivocation, men need to look in the mirror and ask themselves, "Lord, is it I." Nothing will change until men are willing to face the truth of that. And if you can say, no....more power to you. But that does not excuse anyone from the obligation when it comes to how women are treated. It also is a directive to get educated as to what gender bias is and how it manifests itself before answering the question honestly.

I certainly agree with your prior comments, though. MormonNice has to stop. I still remember a talk in the old Women's conference session where a speaker told a "sweet" story about how a girl giving service, was being treated badly by an old man (aka, abuse.) The great lesson is that she did the right thing and learned to take abuse with a stiff upper lip and feel righteous about it. It still gives me the willies but these stories are rife. 

Edited March 24, 2018 by juliann

[Tacenda]

21 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The LDS Church had its own series of similar problems and resulting lawsuits.  Those of us who spent a great deal of time studying that understand it all too  well.

Yes, the learning curve was a rough one for the LDS and the Catholics.  In Asay's case, if the evidence shows him guilty then by all means, hang him.  However, let us at least look at the hard evidence first.  Robespierre should not be our guide.

The Brethren have not made that excuse at all, and have been very much chastened by reality.  Whenever violations of that sort take place, the first stop should be the local police station without equivocation.  God would want it that way.

I see another "Spotlight" coming. With the Catholic church that has a little over a billion members and the LDS church having only a few million, doesn't this shock anyone?