Woman Accusing Joseph Bishop to File Suit (Against Bishop & LDS Church)

[Calm]

I think this is better source, full file:

https://localtvkstu.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/0322-byu-pd-report-on-mormonleaks-mtc-sexual-abuse-allegation-w.pdf

It includes an interview with Red's (nickname for the woman) Spanish instructor who says she remembers her being removed from class as well as claiming she was engaged to be married.

Only real new stuff:

Between the time      reported the rape, and her interview with us in

, had traveled to and met with Joseph. She spoke with him about this incident that took place at the MTC. said he admitted to everything except the rape. recorded the conversation and provided us a copy of it. I listened to it and it was consistent to their interviews except the facts of the rape and the room layout. He mostly said he didn't remember when confronted him about the rape.

                                                        .
Shortly after our interview with Joseph,      called us and said Joseph had

called her saying that he told the police everything except the facts of the
rape.       told him that she had recorded their earlier conversation.
We made contact with Joseph and told him he shouldn't have contact with the
victim since he is involved in a criminal investigation as the suspect.  He
agreed he wouldn't and wanted to tell us that      said he was part of a bigger
picture and that she told him she wanted to expose the LDS church to this kind
of incidents.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Calm

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Self-interest and "the right thing to do" don't necessarily conflict.

When they necessarily do conflict, which does the Church choose?

[smac97]

22 minutes ago, Thinking said:

When they necessarily do conflict, which does the Church choose?

Hopefully, the will of God.

[Tacenda]

54 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think this is better source, full file:

https://localtvkstu.files.wordpress.com/2018/03/0322-byu-pd-report-on-mormonleaks-mtc-sexual-abuse-allegation-w.pdf

It includes an interview with Red's (nickname for the woman) Spanish instructor who says she remembers her being removed from class as well as claiming she was engaged to be married.

Only real new stuff:

Between the time      reported the rape, and her interview with us in

, had traveled to and met with Joseph. She spoke with him about this incident that took place at the MTC. said he admitted to everything except the rape. recorded the conversation and provided us a copy of it. I listened to it and it was consistent to their interviews except the facts of the rape and the room layout. He mostly said he didn't remember when confronted him about the rape.

                                                        .
Shortly after our interview with Joseph,      called us and said Joseph had

called her saying that he told the police everything except the facts of the
rape.       told him that she had recorded their earlier conversation.
We made contact with Joseph and told him he shouldn't have contact with the
victim since he is involved in a criminal investigation as the suspect.  He
agreed he wouldn't and wanted to tell us that      said he was part of a bigger
picture and that she told him she wanted to expose the LDS church to this kind
of incidents.

Were you a journalist/detective in another life Calm?

[Calm]

Possibly mystery writer.  I love Agatha Christie, Dorothy L. Sayers and similar authors (not the gory stuff).

I hate unfinished things, I like order, I love puzzles, I have way too much time on my hands in terms of thinking because my mind is full of energy while my body imitates slugs and lazy slugs at that.

[Calm]

Because I am just passing time, I thought this might interest someone besides me (I was surprised BYU had detectives doing this kind of stuff, not the usual thing when I think on campus security):

University Police Authority

Brigham Young University maintains a state-certified police department. The department’s police officers and dispatchers are certified by the Utah Department of Public Safety. University Police officers have the same law enforcement powers as officers from other Utah police agencies, including the authority to make arrests. The University Police Department works closely with local municipal, county, state, and federal law enforcement agencies.

https://police.byu.edu/sites/police.byu.edu/files/provo-cr2017.pdf

Edited March 25, 2018 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Possibly mystery writer.  I love Agatha Christie, Dorothy L. Sayers and similar authors (not the gory stuff).

I hate unfinished things, I like order, I love puzzles, I have way too much time on my hands in terms of thinking because my mind is full of energy while my body imitates slugs and lazy slugs at that.

You need to learn to play the violin.

 

[Kenngo1969]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

... The ex[-]husband (divorced 25 years ago) might have a reason to lie about her or at least be angry with her as she accuses him of  cheating with 14 women including some he baptized.

Damn, this alleged Lothario gets 14 women, and I can't even get just one???   Why, all of a sudden, is Sade's "Smooth Operator" playing in my brain?  

 

[Duncan]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Someone wanted to see the full police report (Smac?), I don't remember it being posted yet, no transcript but image of at least part of it.

https://m.imgur.com/gallery/BnyIo

I feel sick reading that the world we live in

[gopher]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I feel sick reading that the world we live in

It is a mess.  It raises lots of questions about how discernment works in the Church.  It's not a new question - where was the discernment when the head of the Church chose Judas to be an apostle?

And the usual question - why did God allow this to happen?  (In His defense, He did appear to strike Bishop partially lame during the alleged assault)

[Exiled]

9 hours ago, Thinking said:

When they necessarily do conflict, which does the Church choose?

In this case, it looks like reputation won out over the "right thing to do."

Edited March 25, 2018 by Exiled

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Exiled said:

In this case, it looks like reputation won out over the "right thing to do."

What do you think the "right thing to do" is in this case?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Duncan]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

It is a mess.  It raises lots of questions about how discernment works in the Church.  It's not a new question - where was the discernment when the head of the Church chose Judas to be an apostle?

And the usual question - why did God allow this to happen?  (In His defense, He did appear to strike Bishop partially lame during the alleged assault)

I don't know, we all can think of a billion things of why did God allow this or that, my Grandma used to say "your sin is sure to find you out" like this guy hid it for so long but it's all falling in on him now and I hope he gets everything he deserves.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Duncan

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

I don't know, we all can think of a billion things of why did God allow this or that, my Grandma used to say "your sin is sure to find you out" like this guy hid it for so long but it's all falling in on him now and I hope he gets everything he deserves.

Like all the abused, starved, raped, etc. people in the world, I think God has his hands tyed. Or maybe the only thing we get is the angels looking out for us or comforting us. I don't understand really. I like what your Grandma said! 

ETA: Here is a timeline, don't know how accurate, but everything in a nutshell. https://medium.com/@davidscoville/timeline-of-the-joseph-bishop-sexual-abuse-scandal-77f39be1ef3a

Edited March 25, 2018 by Tacenda

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, smac97 said:

What do you think the "right thing to do" is in this case?

Thanks,

-Smac

Quote

To earn forgiveness, one must make restitution. That means you give back what you have taken or ease the pain of those you have injured.

But sometimes you cannot give back what you have taken because you don’t have it to give. If you have caused others to suffer unbearably—defiled someone’s virtue, for example—it is not within your power to give it back.

There are times you cannot mend that which you have broken. Perhaps the offense was long ago, or the injured refused your penance. Perhaps the damage was so severe that you cannot fix it no matter how desperately you want to.

Your repentance cannot be accepted unless there is a restitution. If you cannot undo what you have done, you are trapped. It is easy to understand how helpless and hopeless you then feel and why you might want to give up, just as Alma did.

The thought that rescued Alma, when he acted upon it, is this: Restoring what you cannot restore, healing the wound you cannot heal, fixing that which you broke and you cannot fix is the very purpose of the atonement of Christ.

When your desire is firm and you are willing to pay the “uttermost farthing,” the law of restitution is suspended. Your obligation is transferred to the Lord. He will settle your accounts.

I repeat, save for the exception of the very few who defect to perdition, there is no habit, no addiction, no rebellion, no transgression, no apostasy, no crime exempted from the promise of complete forgiveness. That is the promise of the atonement of Christ.

How all can be repaired, we do not know. It may not all be accomplished in this life. We know from visions and visitations that the servants of the Lord continue the work of redemption beyond the veil.

This knowledge should be as comforting to the innocent as it is to the guilty. I am thinking of parents who suffer unbearably for the mistakes of their wayward children and are losing hope.

Some members wonder why their priesthood leaders will not accept them just as they are and simply comfort them in what they call pure Christian love.

Pure Christian love, the love of Christ, does not presuppose approval of all conduct. Surely the ordinary experiences of parenthood teach that one can be consumed with love for another and yet be unable to approve unworthy conduct.

We cannot, as a church, approve unworthy conduct or accept into full fellowship individuals who live or who teach standards that are grossly in violation of that which the Lord requires of Latter-day Saints.

If we, out of sympathy, should approve unworthy conduct, it might give present comfort to someone but would not ultimately contribute to that person’s happiness.

In the most tender of sermons in the revelations on kindness and long-suffering, on meekness, gentleness, on love unfeigned, the Lord instructs us to reprove “betimes with sharpness, when moved upon by the Holy Ghost; and then [show] forth afterwards an increase of love toward him whom thou hast reproved.”

The Lord provides ways to pay our debts to Him. In one sense we ourselves may participate in an atonement. When we are willing to restore to others that which we have not taken, or heal wounds that we did not inflict, or pay a debt that we did not incur, we are emulating His part in the Atonement.

So many live with accusing guilt when relief is ever at hand.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/10/the-brilliant-morning-of-forgiveness?lang=eng

This is the remedy, but in the present environment I’m not sure that many of us really believe this any more.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[Jeanne]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

Possibly mystery writer.  I love Agatha Christie, Dorothy L. Sayers and similar authors (not the gory stuff).

I hate unfinished things, I like order, I love puzzles, I have way too much time on my hands in terms of thinking because my mind is full of energy while my body imitates slugs and lazy slugs at that.

I can picture you this way...a writer..mystery...a real whodunit!!

[Jeanne]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Like all the abused, starved, raped, etc. people in the world, I think God has his hands tyed. Or maybe the only thing we get is the angels looking out for us or comforting us. I don't understand really. I like what your Grandma said! 

ETA: Here is a timeline, don't know how accurate, but everything in a nutshell. https://medium.com/@davidscoville/timeline-of-the-joseph-bishop-sexual-abuse-scandal-77f39be1ef3a

There is something so "common sense" about grandmas!!

[why me]

The old guy made a mistake by talking with his victim. He should have known she was recording it. If he would have continued to deny everything on the recording, nothing would have been done. Most likely, by meeting with her, he tried to make amends in some sort of way. I can only wonder what would compel him to do what he did at the MTC. What came over him? Strange to be sure. His family must be in a mess now. Quite the shock for his children. Pain all around. Sad.

Edited March 25, 2018 by why me

[Calm]

8 hours ago, Duncan said:

I feel sick reading that the world we live in

Yep.  I have always gone into a clinical 'think of it like a math problem' mode when I research psychological issues (picked it up from my abnormal and clinical psych teachers), but when something connects it to my reality (the likely dementia in this case, the description of stupidity of a parent in exposing their child to abuse in another that mirrors a close relative's experience, for example), I have to step away.  There is a reason I decided to go into research for clinical psych as opposed to becoming a therapist as much as I want to help people in pain.  Compartmentalizing on 'paper' is one thing, face to face is another.

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, why me said:

The old guy made a mistake by talking with his victim. He should have known she was recording it. If he would have continued to deny everything on the recording, nothing would have been done. Most likely, by meeting with her, he tried to make amends in some sort of way. I can only wonder what would compel him to do what he did at the MTC. What came over him? Strange to be sure. His family must be in a mess now. Quite the shock for his children. Pain all around. Sad.

The church didn't stand by their teachings very well, IMO. Because otherwise they would have called him into a council for a repentance process. Then early on he could have hopefully conquered his obsession with sex or at least stopped from acting on those urges. Then his victims and family wouldn't have to suffer like they have. The leaders dropped the ball and hid things without stopping Bishop, which led to his further abuse after the first meeting with Wells, IMO. All in the name of publicity, they are going to have to live with this now.

I just went to Sharlene Wells Hawke's, former Miss America, FB page and saw photos of her father Robert E. Wells. I'm sure she isn't too happy to see her father's name in all of this. But if what Bishop said is true, Wells should have had him start the repentance process long ago and stopped Bishop from getting the callings he got until that happened. Bishop probably thought all was well when he kept getting the callings that he did. 

[Calm]

On 2018-03-25 at 12:59 PM, Bernard Gui said:

This is the remedy, but in the present environment I’m not sure that many of us really believe this any more.

I think seeing behaviour from repentant sinners that demonstrates repentance helps.  And the truth of this is so glorious I feel any comparison to other situations lessens the impact, but I also believe misuse of this eternal truth needs to identified as well at times and this is one of them.

Not being open about one's sins, not refusing to put oneself into triggering situations does not demonstrate repentance (Bishop may have made sure they could be seen, but he was reaching out and touching her during the conversation, for example).  

Bishop talked about how he wanted to be a model of good behaviour, that he was unworthy to be writing books to teach others how to live....yet he went ahead and wrote those books when asked and didn't tell anyone why they should pull them.  He hid the information from his kids and wives...and in fact blamed the latter for his problems (she didn't love him, if they had a normal relationship he would have been normal...even though the one description he gave certainly made it sound like she was trying on her end and all the other noninterview descriptions didn't sound like there was no love to me, she sounded like a very caring and kind person and at least at the time of the MTC was trying to keep her husband's physical attention).

In this case it is hard to believe he was actually even halfway repentant.  Just expressing the desire, even if heartfelt at that moment is not enough.  Otoh, if someone has gone to marriage and family therapy showing they have been honest about their issues with their loved ones, has demonstrated humility by being open to others about having major faults that are a burden to others even if they don't go into detail and don't hold themselves up as examples to be followed (unless they are trying to share the steps they have taken to repent), doesn't put the responsibility for their sins on others, has reached out to help similar victims if they can't find or help those they personally hurt....now that kind of active repentance/desire to provide some form of restitution is much easier to believe than the kind where the person in confrontation tells only of endless silent struggles to repent and heal and assures others when caught that their own word they have been forgiven by God and healed is enough proof of change and/or gives a vague promise of living to be the best person they can be and thinks that should satisfy any need for restitution.

It is hard to believe in others' repentance if you are unable to see it.  I think when one's sins have resulted in not only making life harder for others (because any sin is likely to do that), but significantly damaged others, there needs to be visual public signs of repentance so that it provides those one has hurt with knowledge if they are open to seeing it that there has been ongoing real awareness of the pain one has caused them as well as a desire not to be that kind of person.  It is really important when one is hurt by another to know that other sees one's pain and when there is no sign of awareness or caring is superficial or just (even strong) sympathy and sorrow that lacks any solid empathy (essentially amounts to 'I feel really bad but I don't know why or what I should feel bad about'), I believe from both personal experience and what I have seen in others, it is much harder to let it go, either because one feels like one is more of an object rather than an individual to the other or there is fear the other hasn't learn how not to hurt one again...and probably other feelings because life is so complicated and tangled when it gets to that level of our experience.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I can picture you this way...a writer..mystery...a real whodunit!!

I am great on plot lines in my not so humble opinion, but I can't write interesting dialogue if my life depended on it (too wordy and dry).

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

There is something so "common sense" about grandmas!!

Then there was my grandma....sorry, I just have to laugh sometimes when people bring up the grandma ideal of cooking cookies or always being there for you or having a huge dose of common sense.  Grandma was a good and loving woman, but social butterfly and worrying about appearances was more her thing.  Grandmas are people too.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Calm

[Jeanne]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Then there was my grandma....sorry, I just have to laugh sometimes when people bring up the grandma ideal of cooking cookies or always being there for you or having a huge dose of common sense.  Grandma was a good and loving woman, but social butterfly and worrying about appearances was more her thing.  Grandmas are people too.

Love this!!

[Calm]

1 hour ago, why me said:

Most likely, by meeting with her, he tried to make amends in some sort of way. 

He met her thinking she was there to interview him because he was a spiritual giant.  He had no clue who she was until 40 minutes iirc into the interview (page 26).  

There is nothing in how he talked that I have read (little bit 3/4 of the way through I have still not read, skipped to the end to see if there was anyone else there and what plans if any were made) that shows he ever did anything for "amends".  He just talked about wanting to be a good person to make up for it before.  Said he was hoping apologizing to her in that situation AFTER he became aware of who she would help her with the pain...because he knew pain, how he suffered throughout his life because of this...not as much as her of course, but oh how he suffered because his wife didn't love him, because he had all these wonderful spiritual experiences, because he had all this wonderful attention from other church leaders, oh his pain from the shame....

Yeah, not seeing your vision much.

Edited March 25, 2018 by Calm