Calm Posted March 25, 2018 Posted March 25, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: The church didn't stand by their teachings very well, IMO. Because otherwise they would have called him into a council for a repentance process. Then early on he could have hopefully conquered his obsession with sex or at least stopped from acting on those urges. Then his victims and family wouldn't have to suffer like they have. The leaders dropped the ball and hid things without stopping Bishop, which led to his further abuse after the first meeting with Wells, IMO. All in the name of publicity, they are going to have to live with this now. I just went to Sharlene Wells Hawke's, former Miss America, FB page and saw photos of her father Robert E. Wells. I'm sure she isn't too happy to see her father's name in all of this. But if what Bishop said is true, Wells should have had him start the repentance process long ago and stopped Bishop from getting the callings he got until that happened. Bishop probably thought all was well when he kept getting the callings that he did. This all assumes he was open about his addiction and offenses to Wells or anyone else. Why he would be but deny it later doesn't ring that true to me, especially the way he described the relationships seems not chummy so to speak, but viewed as something 'higher plane' as in transforming without anything being spoken openly (President Kimball interviewed by not saying a thing???, deep exchange occurring just by gripping a man's arms in a receiving line if I understood him right, confessed 'everything' but no real details of the exchange...it may be in the last section I haven't read yet or I may have misread, so I may change my mind). From the way he talked about his wives, about his awesome spiritual experiences that come across as totally detached in his view from that 'side' of him, imo he compartmentalized his life and didn't see real personal responsibility for his actions. It was happening to him, not because of him. Of course this is him at 85 and personality can change at that age, especially how one handles stress and personal responsibility. I have seen very caring, empathetic, highly responsible people change to being self centered, unable to emotionally understand others , excuse making, bigoted, and even paranoid reaching the upper limits of age. I have also seen it bring a softening of the heart, becoming more open to others, being willing to take the time to listen so it isn't always a neutral or negative thing. It is often the culmination of personal growth rather than a shutting down or regression. From what he said, he definitely saw the additional callings as a sign of something...whether God giving him opportunities to learn spiritually so he could forsake his addiction or to heal his pain, it is hard to tell from what he said in the interview...and of course how he looks at it now after three heart attacks and an awareness he will likely die in the next three years (iirc) is likely a very different view than what he held back then. If he saw his wife's behaviour as permission/excuse to lust after other women and act on that lust (oh man, every time I say that I think 'hopefully, few, few times'), I can easily see him translating the callings to something similar (it is not my fault, I am healed, it is not that big of a deal...lots of options when it comes to rationalizing). add-on: at the beginning, when he is talking about his surgery, he talks about how even his wife being deeply troubled by a former cheating husband leading to years of unhappiness and eventually the divorce was a blessing that saved his life because it got him to a location where a top doctor treated him...it comes across as the Lord preserving his life because he is special. Only later after exposure is there stuff about being provided a chance to make good. So this, imo, is likely his usual reaction to unusual positive things happening, which would include callings. It was just so callous and self centered to be using his wife's yeears of pain as a good story to tell the interviewer about his special life. add-on and on: he uses the confession, in my opinion, to allow himself to feel better about himself (and it comes across as a habitual response to me as he slips into that mode easily...I didn't listen to much more than the beginning, but there were no pauses, no him taking time to think, no changing track). He gets to express sorrow for his past deeds, but he is healed now is how he approaches it himself. She calls him on that so he backs off some, but still goes to how he will use this opportunity to make up, to become worthy...but doesn't really commit to confessing to anyone but her. Even talking to his exwife, he doesn't make a peep of protest when she tells him not to do it and he begs her, begs the universe more or less not to let his exwife/fiancé (who is so fragile and will never trust again) and his kids to learn of this. Even here, he only confesses to lusting thoughts and minimal, consensual actions. While he apologizes for doing worse, he insists he doesn't remember...if he did remember, this is a decent play on her sympathies...she might be nice enough to accept validation without actual validation plus he could rationalized he had to protect others who would be hurt if he confessed, but he said he was sorry and went on and on about how rotten it was he added to her pain, so that was a full apology in spirit, if not in fact. Edited March 25, 2018 by Calm
Duncan Posted March 25, 2018 Posted March 25, 2018 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: The church didn't stand by their teachings very well, IMO. Because otherwise they would have called him into a council for a repentance process. Then early on he could have hopefully conquered his obsession with sex or at least stopped from acting on those urges. Then his victims and family wouldn't have to suffer like they have. The leaders dropped the ball and hid things without stopping Bishop, which led to his further abuse after the first meeting with Wells, IMO. All in the name of publicity, they are going to have to live with this now. I just went to Sharlene Wells Hawke's, former Miss America, FB page and saw photos of her father Robert E. Wells. I'm sure she isn't too happy to see her father's name in all of this. But if what Bishop said is true, Wells should have had him start the repentance process long ago and stopped Bishop from getting the callings he got until that happened. Bishop probably thought all was well when he kept getting the callings that he did. I saw Sis.Wells with DJTJ
Duncan Posted March 25, 2018 Posted March 25, 2018 Just now, Calm said: Translate please. Donald Trump Jr., nicknamed DJTJ
Tacenda Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Duncan said: I saw Sis.Wells with DJTJ I noticed!
Tacenda Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 2 hours ago, Calm said: This all assumes he was open about his addiction and offenses to Wells or anyone else. Why he would be but deny it later doesn't ring that true to me, especially the way he described the relationships seems not chummy so to speak, but viewed as something 'higher plane' as in transforming without anything being spoken openly (President Kimball interviewed by not saying a thing???, deep exchange occurring just by gripping a man's arms in a receiving line if I understood him right, confessed 'everything' but no real details of the exchange...it may be in the last section I haven't read yet or I may have misread, so I may change my mind). From the way he talked about his wives, about his awesome spiritual experiences that come across as totally detached in his view from that 'side' of him, imo he compartmentalized his life and didn't see real personal responsibility for his actions. It was happening to him, not because of him. Of course this is him at 85 and personality can change at that age, especially how one handles stress and personal responsibility. I have seen very caring, empathetic, highly responsible people change to being self centered, unable to emotionally understand others , excuse making, bigoted, and even paranoid reaching the upper limits of age. I have also seen it bring a softening of the heart, becoming more open to others, being willing to take the time to listen so it isn't always a neutral or negative thing. It is often the culmination of personal growth rather than a shutting down or regression. From what he said, he definitely saw the additional callings as a sign of something...whether God giving him opportunities to learn spiritually so he could forsake his addiction or to heal his pain, it is hard to tell from what he said in the interview...and of course how he looks at it now after three heart attacks and an awareness he will likely die in the next three years (iirc) is likely a very different view than what he held back then. If he saw his wife's behaviour as permission/excuse to lust after other women and act on that lust (oh man, every time I say that I think 'hopefully, few, few times'), I can easily see him translating the callings to something similar (it is not my fault, I am healed, it is not that big of a deal...lots of options when it comes to rationalizing). add-on: at the beginning, when he is talking about his surgery, he talks about how even his wife being deeply troubled by a former cheating husband leading to years of unhappiness and eventually the divorce was a blessing that saved his life because it got him to a location where a top doctor treated him...it comes across as the Lord preserving his life because he is special. Only later after exposure is there stuff about being provided a chance to make good. So this, imo, is likely his usual reaction to unusual positive things happening, which would include callings. It was just so callous and self centered to be using his wife's yeears of pain as a good story to tell the interviewer about his special life. add-on and on: he uses the confession, in my opinion, to allow himself to feel better about himself (and it comes across as a habitual response to me as he slips into that mode easily...I didn't listen to much more than the beginning, but there were no pauses, no him taking time to think, no changing track). He gets to express sorrow for his past deeds, but he is healed now is how he approaches it himself. She calls him on that so he backs off some, but still goes to how he will use this opportunity to make up, to become worthy...but doesn't really commit to confessing to anyone but her. Even talking to his exwife, he doesn't make a peep of protest when she tells him not to do it and he begs her, begs the universe more or less not to let his exwife/fiancé (who is so fragile and will never trust again) and his kids to learn of this. Even here, he only confesses to lusting thoughts and minimal, consensual actions. While he apologizes for doing worse, he insists he doesn't remember...if he did remember, this is a decent play on her sympathies...she might be nice enough to accept validation without actual validation plus he could rationalized he had to protect others who would be hurt if he confessed, but he said he was sorry and went on and on about how rotten it was he added to her pain, so that was a full apology in spirit, if not in fact. I hope you're right Calm. I remember once him saying he probably didn't give a full confession and then another time that he did. I guess it was probably to two different people. I might need to go back and read through or listen again.
Bernard Gui Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 3 hours ago, Calm said: I think seeing behaviour from repentant sinners that demonstrates repentance helps. And the truth of this is so glorious I feel any comparison to other situations lessens the impact, but I also believes misuse of this eternal truth needs to identified as well at times and this is one of them. Not being open about one's sins, not refusing to put oneself into triggering situations does not demonstrate repentance (Bishop may have made sure they could be seen, but he was reaching out and touching her during the conversation, for example). Bishop talked about how he wanted to be a model of good behaviour, that he was unworthy to be writing books to teach others how to live....yet he went ahead and wrote those books when asked and didn't tell anyone why they should pull them. He hid the information from his kids and wives...and in fact blamed the latter for his problems (she didn't love him, if they had a normal relationship he would have been normal...even though the one description he gave certainly made it sound like she was trying on her end and all the other descriptions didn't sound like there was no love to me, she sounded like a very caring and kind person and at least at the time of the MTC was trying to keep her husband's physical attention). In this case it is hard to believe he was actually even halfway repentant. Just expressing the desire, even if heartfelt at that moment is not enough. Otoh, if someone has gone to marriage and family therapy showing they have been honest about their issues with their loved ones, has demonstrated humility by being open to others about having major faults that are a burden to others even if they don't go into detail and don't hold themselves up as examples to be followed (unless they are trying to share the steps they have taken to repent), doesn't put the responsibility for their sins on others, has reached out to help similar victims if they can't find or help those they personally hurt....now that kind of active repentance/desire to provide some form of restitution is much easier to believe than the kind where the person in confrontation tells only of endless silent struggles to repent and heal and assures others when caught their own word they have been forgiven by God and healed is enough proof of change and or gives a vague promise of living to be the best person they can be and thinks that should satisfy any need for restitution. It is hard to believe in others' repentance if you are unable to see it. I think when one's sins have resulted in not only making life harder for others (because any sin is likely to do that), but significantly damaged others, there needs to be visual public signs of repentance so that it provides those one has hurt with knowledge if they are open to seeing it that there has been ongoing real awareness of the pain one has caused them as well as a desire not to be that kind of person. It is really important when one is hurt by another to know that other sees one's pain and when there is no sign of awareness or caring is superficial or even strong sympathy and sorrow that lacks any empathy (essentially amounts to 'I feel really bad but I don't know what I should feel bad about'), I believe from both personal experience and what I have seen in others, it is much harder to let it go, either because one feels like one is more of an object rather than an individual to the other or there is fear the other hasn't learn how not to hurt one again...and probably other feelings because life is so complicated and tangled when it gets to that level of our experience. My thoughts....Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. God will forgive whom He will forgive. Of us, it is required to forgive all men. Can we really do that? We have no idea of the depth or sincerity of another’s repentance. Best to sweep our side of the street. 1
Calm Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 10 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said: My thoughts....Lord have mercy on me, a sinner. God will forgive whom He will forgive. Of us, it is required to forgive all men. Can we really do that? We have no idea of the depth or sincerity of another’s repentance. Best to sweep our side of the street. I very much agree we must forgive all. Otoh, that doesn't mean we don't hold them accountable for the consequences of their behaviour. 4
Oliblish Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 On 3/23/2018 at 4:46 PM, why me said: Consig was famous for his bullseye posts. However, now, he has changed to the other side. No more bullseye posts. Amazingly, for all the bullsye posts, a person can go over to the other side. But he still seems like a nice guy. From what I have heard he does not post here any more because he is not allowed to. 1
Calm Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) Sorry if this got posted before (it is not coming up on a google site search), but my jaw dropped when I just read it and I think I would remember if I had seen it here. Greg Bishop in defending his father.... Quote He said on Wednesday that there was no sexual assault and that the woman exposed herself to his father unsolicited. He said his father was apologizing in the recorded conversation for anything he did to make her feel like she could do that. “It’s always troubled him that a woman would feel that it would be appropriate or well received or acceptable for her to bare her breasts to him,” Greg Bishop said Wednesday. “So, he’s carried some guilt about that because he didn’t think it was appropriate.” https://nypost.com/2018/03/22/ex-mormon-official-asked-to-see-womans-breasts-police/ Oh my word....and I just had a big deja vu moment. Unfortunately there have been scandals in the past and people saying stupid things about them, so I think it is likely a vague memory of a previous jaw dropping moment. Got to wonder if his son actually listened to/read the transcript or the police report. I think I may do a search on "Greg Bishop" to see if he has said anything else that comes across as foot inserted into mouth disease. Quote "I'm living a nightmare," he said. "This is the dark side of #MeToo, where somebody wants to manipulate the system, has a history of doing it, and has been successful." Making it about him living a nightmare rather than his father or his family, understandable if it pops out, but he is just not creating any sympathy for himself as the representative of his father and family here. https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investigations/2018/03/24/amid-quiet-life-chandler-explosive-sexual-assault-allegations-hit-mormon-leader/449975002/ Quote He said it’s unclear if his father understood some of the words the woman used such as “molest” and “addiction.” I get the claim about "addiction", we have seen confusion about it here even, but "molest"? Please. "Sexual addiction" may be used to mean lots of things (though I have never heard it meaning just thinking impure thoughts like the rest of humanity***), but "molest" is a common term and has been for a long time. http://kuer.org/post/what-we-know-about-rape-allegation-against-former-lds-church-leader#stream/0 ****Referencing Greg Bishop's comment his dad was just being male, in case you don't remember or missed it "“When Dad talked about being a sex addict, it sounds to me like he was just being a male,” he said." http://www.standard.net/Education/2018/03/24/Joseph-Bishop-LDS-mission-training-president-MTC-faced-lawsuit-controversies-at-Weber-State-college-university Edited March 26, 2018 by Calm
Calm Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 Not sure if this tidbit of timeline dispute got posted: Quote Greg Bishop challenges the timeline the interviewer presents in her version of the story, saying the 1984 dates of her time in the MTC (January to April of 1984) don’t coincide with the 1985 residence of the other sister missionary she claims was there at the same time and was molested by his father. http://gazette.com/retired-mormon-mission-president-admits-he-molested-a-female-missionary-religion-news-service/article/1623071
Calm Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 In regards to the false claim of rape while on her mission: Quote There was another claim of sexual assault made 10 years earlier while on her mission. The accuser says she was struggling with what Bishop did to her and wanted to go home. Woman: "Pretended somebody in the [expletive] parking lot tried to rape me, because I was having an anxiety attack and I didn't want to tell anybody." http://fox13now.com/2018/03/21/family-of-former-lds-mission-president-accused-of-sexual-assault-responds-to-allegations/ I find that a bit of a stretch...easier to claim rape than be open about having an anxiety attack? I get the desire to go home for sure though. Quote The family sent Fox 13 documents that list more than a half a dozen times the accuser claimed she was sexually or physically assaulted. One of those incidents was in 1999, where the woman claimed she was assaulted in a parking lot by two men, then asserted legal claims against her place of work for failing to have proper security. Police reports show the case was unfounded and states, "the complainant has confessed to providing misleading and incomplete information... " Quote Other incidents ranged from allegedly lying about cancer treatments for money, forging prescriptions, and DUI. Police documents show the woman also claimed a restaurant put razor blades in the icing of a chocolate cake—only for police, doctors and psychologists to say she did it intentionally. Looks like she is going to come out soon: Quote The woman is expected to speak publicly about the case in the next several weeks. 1
Bernard Gui Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) 7 hours ago, Calm said: I very much agree we must forgive all. Otoh, that doesn't mean we don't hold them accountable for the consequences of their behaviour. Thank you, Calm. This is a general response to this situation, not to your specific comments. I didn’t say that we should not hold them accountable. Elder Packer made that clear in the talk I quoted; however, I don’t believe “holding accountable” means we get to condemn, to seek revenge, to harm, to judge the sinner, or to gauge the sincerity and depth of his repentance, especially if we base our judgment on the tone of a voice in a recording or a quote in an interview. There is little this man or his victims can do to repair the damage he apparently caused except to rely on this promise by Sister Bingham. Quote No matter what we have suffered, He is the source of healing. Those who have experienced any manner of abuse, devastating loss, chronic illness or disabling affliction, untrue accusations, vicious persecution, or spiritual damage from sin or misunderstandings can all be made whole by the Redeemer of the world. However, He will not enter without invitation. We must come unto Him and allow Him to work His miracles. We rightly work, hope, and pray for the healing of the victims of these awful sins, but we would not be true followers of Christ if we did not want the same for the offender. His sins are being shouted from the rooftops. His victims justly cry out against him. Perhaps he will be held accountable by civil authority. Some have said they have no sympathy for this man, but there are innocents who mourn for him. What of Jesus? How does He look upon him? Perhaps with sadness, disappointment, righteous and justified anger? Did he not suffer and die for him, too? He holds out His arms to even the vilest sinner. As President Kimball taught us, there must be deep repentance for deep sin, but His grace is sufficient to forgive the repentant sinner and to compensate for the tremendous damage he has caused. We rejoice that Jesus has the power to perform these miracles of healing and restoration because we are all in need of that. As for the Church, if we need to clean His house, then we should do so without complaint or excuse. We can’t do that by walking out and slamming the door behind us. Edited March 26, 2018 by Bernard Gui 2
Bernard Gui Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 10 hours ago, Duncan said: I saw Sis.Wells with DJTJ Guilt by association? 1
Bernard Gui Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Calm said: Not sure if this tidbit of timeline dispute got posted: http://gazette.com/retired-mormon-mission-president-admits-he-molested-a-female-missionary-religion-news-service/article/1623071 Quote Ryan McKnight, the founder of MormonLeaks, declined to comment on how his organization received the document, which he said was released to the public because of “its relevance to the current discussion of ecclesiastical abuse,” though it is not his goal to “place the blame on any one individual or institution.” But the actual result of this release has only been to place blame on one individual and on an institution (and several other individuals in that institution), which result was easily predictable.
bluebell Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 6 hours ago, Calm said: Sorry if this got posted before (it is not coming up on a google site search), but my jaw dropped when I just read it and I think I would remember if I had seen it here. Greg Bishop in defending his father.... https://nypost.com/2018/03/22/ex-mormon-official-asked-to-see-womans-breasts-police/ Oh my word....and I just had a big deja vu moment. Unfortunately there have been scandals in the past and people saying stupid things about them, so I think it is likely a vague memory of a previous jaw dropping moment. Got to wonder if his son actually listened to/read the transcript or the police report. I think I may do a search on "Greg Bishop" to see if he has said anything else that comes across as foot inserted into mouth disease. Making it about him living a nightmare rather than his father or his family, understandable if it pops out, but he is just not creating any sympathy for himself as the representative of his father and family here. https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-investigations/2018/03/24/amid-quiet-life-chandler-explosive-sexual-assault-allegations-hit-mormon-leader/449975002/ I get the claim about "addiction", we have seen confusion about it here even, but "molest"? Please. "Sexual addiction" may be used to mean lots of things (though I have never heard it meaning just thinking impure thoughts like the rest of humanity***), but "molest" is a common term and has been for a long time. http://kuer.org/post/what-we-know-about-rape-allegation-against-former-lds-church-leader#stream/0 ****Referencing Greg Bishop's comment his dad was just being male, in case you don't remember or missed it "“When Dad talked about being a sex addict, it sounds to me like he was just being a male,” he said." http://www.standard.net/Education/2018/03/24/Joseph-Bishop-LDS-mission-training-president-MTC-faced-lawsuit-controversies-at-Weber-State-college-university Using the word molest in regards to an adult doing something to another adult is not really common. It's almost exclusively used in regards to crimes against children (it's not inappropriate to use it in this circumstance, it's just not that typical). I don't know that that should have been confusing to Bishop though.
Calm Posted March 26, 2018 Posted March 26, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, bluebell said: Using the word molest in regards to an adult doing something to another adult is not really common. It's almost exclusively used in regards to crimes against children (it's not inappropriate to use it in this circumstance, it's just not that typical). I don't know that that should have been confusing to Bishop though. True that it is used most commonly for children now (I am wondering if it varies from place to place because something like rubbing up against a woman on a train used to be called molestation in my experience more often than assault, assault was reserved for what was seen as violent and harassment verbal, molestation the stuff in between, abuse wasn't as common a term as it is now), if anything that would have led the Bishop to deny molesting the woman though rather than agreeing to it. I remember we had a running joke about a mythical peeping Tom/flasher at my BYU dorm, nicknamed Chester the Molestor. Sexual molestation was commonly used in my experience where sexual abuse is used now. I am trying to remember when it changed over, but can't. Edited March 26, 2018 by Calm 1
Kenngo1969 Posted March 27, 2018 Posted March 27, 2018 (edited) This just in (apologies if anyone has beaten me to it: I've rather been enjoying my self-imposed semi-hiatus from the Board, which has given me a fabulous excuse to get caught up on some long-overdue reading [of actual, you know, books! ] I have not followed this or any other topic all that closely lately ...) https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900013999/lds-first-presidency-letter-directs-leaders-to-review-teach-policies-on-preventing-responding-to-sex-abuse.html (I'm at work right now, so, even though I'm currently bored out of my skull, I can't actually read anything conventional, nor can I take the notes I'm accustomed to taking under certain circumstances ...) Edited March 27, 2018 by Kenngo1969 4
Kenngo1969 Posted March 27, 2018 Posted March 27, 2018 This link is included in the material linked above, but, in the interest of being thorough (if not redundant): https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/multimedia/file/Preventing-and-Responding-to-Abuse-attachment-final.pdf 3
Popular Post juliann Posted March 27, 2018 Popular Post Posted March 27, 2018 I personally believe that the growing awareness of and resistance to sexual abuse is the fulfillment of the scripture which says, “There is nothing covered that shall not be revealed, neither hid that shall not be known. Therefore, whatsoever ye have spoken [and I would add, have done] in darkness shall be heard in the light, and proclaimed upon the housetops.” Each survivor who tells her or his story, each individual who reports abuse, each police officer who arrests a perpetrator, each judge and jury who enforce the law, and each person who teaches children to protect themselves and to report abuse are part of fulfilling this prediction of Jesus Christ about the last days. This evil must be exposed before it can be repented of, and it must be repented of. Chieko Okazaki, “Healing From Sexual Abuse,” at BYU’s “Embracing Hope” conference on October 23, 2002. https://www.the-exponent.com/healing-from-sexual-abuse-by-chieko-okazaki-mormonmetoo/ 5
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