Squaring Church with life

[stemelbow]

The Spirit directs us individuals, huh?

As some of you know and some of you have figured out, I have a tough time with Church.  I feel pretty torn.  The Spirit is pulling me away from Church more and more as I live my life these days.  It's tough.  I'm getting pulled away while I'm also wanting to hold on.  I hate to give up on the tradition that is church in my life.  It's always been there.  I don't know that I benefit from going, personally anymore, but I still go because it is that ingrained in me.  Wife would be happy to leave and would head for the hills as fast as she can if I said, "i'm not going to Church" or something like it.  I like to hold on to it, even though I really don't fit.  She often wants out, but stays gets rejuvenated after we address the issue and I give every reason I can come up with to stay.  So anyway, the Spirit prompted me out years ago.  If I were like Elder Rasband or thought like him I'd be gone, I guess.  I like to weigh in the balance what is prompting me and all other resources.  But as it is, maybe I'm being way too cautious this time.  Maybe I should just go with the promptings and be done with it.  I wonder what God would have in store for me.

Some questions that can be addressed more generally, if you like:

Is there spiritual life outside Mormonism, in your view, as fulfilling as is in Mormonism? 

If someone leaves on his/her own volition, claiming to be led by God, is he/she automatically an apostate enemy type?  My neighbors for instance already tons of bad things they discuss about us as it relates to Church, seeing as we're so unorthodox (sorry MFBukowski, but not sure how else to put it).  We get a chuckle out fo the things that leak back to us in some way or another, but in some member's minds we're definitely apostate fools. 

Should such a person not be welcome to post on this board? 

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

The Spirit directs us individuals, huh?

As some of you know and some of you have figured out, I have a tough time with Church.  I feel pretty torn.  The Spirit is pulling me away from Church more and more as I live my life these days.  It's tough.  I'm getting pulled away while I'm also wanting to hold on.  I hate to give up on the tradition that is church in my life.  It's always been there.  I don't know that I benefit from going, personally anymore, but I still go because it is that ingrained in me.  Wife would be happy to leave and would head for the hills as fast as she can if I said, "i'm not going to Church" or something like it.  I like to hold on to it, even though I really don't fit.  She often wants out, but stays gets rejuvenated after we address the issue and I give every reason I can come up with to stay.  So anyway, the Spirit prompted me out years ago.  If I were like Elder Rasband or thought like him I'd be gone, I guess.  I like to weigh in the balance what is prompting me and all other resources.  But as it is, maybe I'm being way too cautious this time.  Maybe I should just go with the promptings and be done with it.  I wonder what God would have in store for me.

Some questions that can be addressed more generally, if you like:

Is there spiritual life outside Mormonism, in your view, as fulfilling as is in Mormonism? 

If someone leaves on his/her own volition, claiming to be led by God, is he/she automatically an apostate enemy type?  My neighbors for instance already tons of bad things they discuss about us as it relates to Church, seeing as we're so unorthodox (sorry MFBukowski, but not sure how else to put it).  We get a chuckle out fo the things that leak back to us in some way or another, but in some member's minds we're definitely apostate fools. 

Should such a person not be welcome to post on this board? 

I'm not sure why the Spirit would lead anyone away from the church.  The Spirit is the Holy Ghost.  We believe that the Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead and that he works in conjunction with God the Father and his son Jesus Christ.  The Holy Ghost is also sent to testify of Jesus Christ as well as truth.  If the church is indeed the church of Jesus Christ, why would the Holy Ghost lead anyone away from it?  If the church is authorized by Jesus Christ to act in his name (the priesthood) and administer eternal covenants, why would the Holy Ghost lead anyone away from those covenants? 

[Gray]

17 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

The Spirit directs us individuals, huh?

As some of you know and some of you have figured out, I have a tough time with Church.  I feel pretty torn.  The Spirit is pulling me away from Church more and more as I live my life these days.  It's tough.  I'm getting pulled away while I'm also wanting to hold on.  I hate to give up on the tradition that is church in my life.  It's always been there.  I don't know that I benefit from going, personally anymore, but I still go because it is that ingrained in me.  Wife would be happy to leave and would head for the hills as fast as she can if I said, "i'm not going to Church" or something like it.  I like to hold on to it, even though I really don't fit.  She often wants out, but stays gets rejuvenated after we address the issue and I give every reason I can come up with to stay.  So anyway, the Spirit prompted me out years ago.  If I were like Elder Rasband or thought like him I'd be gone, I guess.  I like to weigh in the balance what is prompting me and all other resources.  But as it is, maybe I'm being way too cautious this time.  Maybe I should just go with the promptings and be done with it.  I wonder what God would have in store for me.

Some questions that can be addressed more generally, if you like:

Is there spiritual life outside Mormonism, in your view, as fulfilling as is in Mormonism? 

If someone leaves on his/her own volition, claiming to be led by God, is he/she automatically an apostate enemy type?  My neighbors for instance already tons of bad things they discuss about us as it relates to Church, seeing as we're so unorthodox (sorry MFBukowski, but not sure how else to put it).  We get a chuckle out fo the things that leak back to us in some way or another, but in some member's minds we're definitely apostate fools. 

Should such a person not be welcome to post on this board? 

I think there is spiritual vitality in many places outside of Mormonism, including places within and without religious institutions. But, what place will provide that vitality to you is something only you can discover, because one person's spiritual home is another person's spiritual wasteland. 

 

[CV75]

29 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

The Spirit directs us individuals, huh?

As some of you know and some of you have figured out, I have a tough time with Church.  I feel pretty torn.  The Spirit is pulling me away from Church more and more as I live my life these days.  It's tough.  I'm getting pulled away while I'm also wanting to hold on.  I hate to give up on the tradition that is church in my life.  It's always been there.  I don't know that I benefit from going, personally anymore, but I still go because it is that ingrained in me.  Wife would be happy to leave and would head for the hills as fast as she can if I said, "i'm not going to Church" or something like it.  I like to hold on to it, even though I really don't fit.  She often wants out, but stays gets rejuvenated after we address the issue and I give every reason I can come up with to stay.  So anyway, the Spirit prompted me out years ago.  If I were like Elder Rasband or thought like him I'd be gone, I guess.  I like to weigh in the balance what is prompting me and all other resources.  But as it is, maybe I'm being way too cautious this time.  Maybe I should just go with the promptings and be done with it.  I wonder what God would have in store for me.

Some questions that can be addressed more generally, if you like:

Is there spiritual life outside Mormonism, in your view, as fulfilling as is in Mormonism? 

If someone leaves on his/her own volition, claiming to be led by God, is he/she automatically an apostate enemy type?  My neighbors for instance already tons of bad things they discuss about us as it relates to Church, seeing as we're so unorthodox (sorry MFBukowski, but not sure how else to put it).  We get a chuckle out fo the things that leak back to us in some way or another, but in some member's minds we're definitely apostate fools. 

Should such a person not be welcome to post on this board? 

Of course there is spiritual life outside of the restored Gospel; in my view it was (and would not be again) as fulfilling. There are many ways to conceptualize “Mormonism,” and therefore what it means to be an enemy/apostate of it, hence all the discussion that goes on around here and we are all ultracrepidarians (lol)... So I think the board rules are adequate for describing most posters’ expectations for what warrants someone being welcome; other than that, being welcome is a function on personality and interest.

[stemelbow]

24 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not sure why the Spirit would lead anyone away from the church.  The Spirit is the Holy Ghost.  We believe that the Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead and that he works in conjunction with God the Father and his son Jesus Christ.  The Holy Ghost is also sent to testify of Jesus Christ as well as truth.  If the church is indeed the church of Jesus Christ, why would the Holy Ghost lead anyone away from it?  If the church is authorized by Jesus Christ to act in his name (the priesthood) and administer eternal covenants, why would the Holy Ghost lead anyone away from those covenants? 

By the very nature of things covenants can be re-applied through eternity.  Meaning if one fails here, one can re commit in the spirit world.  I guess it's obvious, but I'm less convinced we're supposed to be limiting God to the Church.  It represents one tool in his arsenal of perhaps billions of tools He uses to accomplish His design in bringing salvation to mankind.  So, I think that's why the Spirit would lead people elsewhere.  he needs people in other places at different times. 

[juliann]

33 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

 

Should such a person not be welcome to post on this board? 

Would such a person board slam us with nonstop insults to what we hold dear? Would they expect us to provide them therapy which requires us to sweetly listen to torrents of mean spirited and demeaning comments? 

Or would they behave like 90% of leave takers and remain courteous to other Mormons through their difficulties?

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, juliann said:

Would such a person board slam us with nonstop insults to what we hold dear? Would they expect us to provide them therapy which requires us to sweetly listen to torrents of mean spirited and demeaning comments? 

Or would they behave like 90% of leave takers and remain courteous to other Mormons through their difficulties?

I'd behave just as I do now and have been behaving for the 10 or so years I've been signed up here. 

[juliann]

44 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

 

If someone leaves on his/her own volition, claiming to be led by God, is he/she automatically an apostate enemy type?  My neighbors for instance already tons of bad things they discuss about us as it relates to Church, seeing as we're so unorthodox (sorry MFBukowski, but not sure how else to put it).  We get a chuckle out fo the things that leak back to us in some way or another, but in some member's minds we're definitely apostate fools. 

 

Your neighbors are donkey's behinds. Leave a copy of Elder Renlund's talk on their doorstep.

[juliann]

1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

I'd behave just as I do now and have been behaving for the 10 or so years I've been signed up here. 

So what's the problem ;-)

[ksfisher]

4 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

By the very nature of things covenants can be re-applied through eternity.  Meaning if one fails here, one can re commit in the spirit world.  I guess it's obvious, but I'm less convinced we're supposed to be limiting God to the Church.  It represents one tool in his arsenal of perhaps billions of tools He uses to accomplish His design in bringing salvation to mankind.  So, I think that's why the Spirit would lead people elsewhere.  he needs people in other places at different times. 

I don't see it taught in the scriptures or by the prophets that a person who does not keep their covenants here will be able to "re commit" after this life.  On the contrary, I see it taught time and time again that now is the time to repent and now is the time to make and keep covenants with God.  God is not limited to working through the church, all men have the power to do good.  However, the church is the only organization that is authorized to administer the rites and ordinances or the gospel.  Which rites and ordinances, we believe, that all men, whether living or dead, must receive if they wish to be saved in the Kingdom of God.  This church is lead by Jesus Christ, by whose name those who will be heirs to the celestial kingdom will be called by.  There is no other way.

[bsjkki]

20 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not sure why the Spirit would lead anyone away from the church.  The Spirit is the Holy Ghost.  We believe that the Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead and that he works in conjunction with God the Father and his son Jesus Christ.  The Holy Ghost is also sent to testify of Jesus Christ as well as truth.  If the church is indeed the church of Jesus Christ, why would the Holy Ghost lead anyone away from it?  If the church is authorized by Jesus Christ to act in his name (the priesthood) and administer eternal covenants, why would the Holy Ghost lead anyone away from those covenants? 

In some ways I had this happen. Not for me but I got clear instruction. As a parent, it was kind of my inactive child to attend church with me when she was home in order to be supportive and be nice. On one such Sunday...everything that could possibly go wrong at church for her did and I got a clear impression to tell her it was fine with me if she wanted to leave. She fled. Someday...the time may come that this changes but not for awhile and probably not around the people that caused her so much pain. In some ways it freed me too and our relationship is even better. 

[Ahab]

To my mind there is a big difference between leaving the Church and simply no longer attending Church meetings.

I seldom go to meetings anymore, and my wife hasn't attended Church meetings for quite a while either, but we are still active members of the Church... active in sharing the gospel and living the principles of the gospel.

The Church is a support group.  The Church is all of the people who are members of it. And my wife and I are still active, believing, faithful members of it with or without the support of any other members.

[stemelbow]

19 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I don't see it taught in the scriptures or by the prophets that a person who does not keep their covenants here will be able to "re commit" after this life.  On the contrary, I see it taught time and time again that now is the time to repent and now is the time to make and keep covenants with God.  God is not limited to working through the church, all men have the power to do good.  However, the church is the only organization that is authorized to administer the rites and ordinances or the gospel.  Which rites and ordinances, we believe, that all men, whether living or dead, must receive if they wish to be saved in the Kingdom of God.  This church is lead by Jesus Christ, by whose name those who will be heirs to the celestial kingdom will be called by.  There is no other way.

Tons of stuff isn't taught in scriptures or by the prophets.  That's part of the problem, it seems.

But I appreciate your concern here.  Thanks.  It seems like there is some considerable talking past each other already, so I'll leave your opinion be. 

Edited April 17, 2017 by stemelbow

[Freedom]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

The Spirit directs us individuals, huh?

As some of you know and some of you have figured out, I have a tough time with Church.  I feel pretty torn.  The Spirit is pulling me away from Church more and more as I live my life these days. 

Can you explain what you mean by this? The spirit is a feeling of love, peace, and forgiveness. When you feel the spirit, you have the desire to abandon all sin and to do good continually. Church is a place where you are to experience such a revelatory experience, particularly when you participate in the ordinance of the sacrament, and further by hearing the testimonies of others as they testify of Christ. What is the feeling you experience that is keeping you away from church?

[stemelbow]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

To my mind there is a big difference between leaving the Church and simply no longer attending Church meetings.

I seldom go to meetings anymore, and my wife hasn't attended Church meetings for quite a while either, but we are still active members of the Church... active in sharing the gospel and living the principles of the gospel.

The Church is a support group.  The Church is all of the people who are members of it. And my wife and I are still active, believing, faithful members of it with or without the support of any other members.

Well active means attending meetings (or one meeting?) once a month.  So even if I leave as I feel prompted I might still easily make it as an active member.  So there is that.  Thanks.  BTW, I didn't realize you were a seldom attender--wouldn't have guessed it. 

 

[pogi]

26 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I have a tough time with Church. 

27 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

The Spirit is pulling me away from Church

Is it possible that you are conflating these two?

I too have struggled with the church at times and have felt "prompted" to leave on several occasions.  Each time I have approached the Lord in complete willingness to submit to his will.  I have even asked Him about leaving the church.  Here is the answer I got - "remember".  I knew exactly what He meant.    I went to my nightstand and picked up my old prayer journal which had sat unused for some time, and I began to read old entries.  It didn't take long before my heart was nearly bursting at the seams in remembrance of the spirit I had forgotten.  The spirit spoke to me as it did when I first penned the words.  I thank God for prompting me to keep a prayer journal many years ago. 

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, Freedom said:

Can you explain what you mean by this? The spirit is a feeling of love, peace, and forgiveness. When you feel the spirit, you have the desire to abandon all sin and to do good continually. Church is a place where you are to experience such a revelatory experience, particularly when you participate in the ordinance of the sacrament, and further by hearing the testimonies of others as they testify of Christ. What is the feeling you experience that is keeping you away from church?

Same--love, peace, forgiveness. 

[Vanguard]

25 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

I don't see it taught in the scriptures or by the prophets that a person who does not keep their covenants here will be able to "re commit" after this life.  On the contrary, I see it taught time and time again that now is the time to repent and now is the time to make and keep covenants with God.  God is not limited to working through the church, all men have the power to do good.  However, the church is the only organization that is authorized to administer the rites and ordinances or the gospel.  Which rites and ordinances, we believe, that all men, whether living or dead, must receive if they wish to be saved in the Kingdom of God.  This church is lead by Jesus Christ, by whose name those who will be heirs to the celestial kingdom will be called by.  There is no other way.

But what if the individual no longer believes those covenants though he may see the error of his ways either later in this life or the afterlife? Why couldn't he recommit at that point?

[Ahab]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Well active means attending meetings (or one meeting?) once a month.  So even if I leave as I feel prompted I might still easily make it as an active member.  So there is that.  Thanks.  BTW, I didn't realize you were a seldom attender--wouldn't have guessed it. 

Active means any level of activity, other than none, and the term "inactive" is no longer considered appropriate for any member of the Church. The term preferred now is less active, meaning less active than another member who is more active as a member in some way.

My testimony is still the same as it was when I attended Church meetings more often so the only real difference between now and before is that I don't go to meetings as often... unless we were to count meetings with other members here on this board.

[bluebell]

Just do what you sincerely believe the spirit is telling you to do.

[Tacenda]

31 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

In some ways I had this happen. Not for me but I got clear instruction. As a parent, it was kind of my inactive child to attend church with me when she was home in order to be supportive and be nice. On one such Sunday...everything that could possibly go wrong at church for her did and I got a clear impression to tell her it was fine with me if she wanted to leave. She fled. Someday...the time may come that this changes but not for awhile and probably not around the people that caused her so much pain. In some ways it freed me too and our relationship is even better. 

I wish I'd been better inspired. My reactions to my kids not wanting to go to church probably caused them to become inactive. Nothing physical, just arguments about them living the rules in the household. I guess some are a little more rebellious. I do have one that served a mission and wasn't rebellious, but he and his wife are inactive, so that is a surprise. Even though I have struggles to believe, I still think it's great for social reasons for kids starting out. But maybe it's just me that needs structures to help me meet and have friends. 

[Duncan]

I vividly recall having dinner in 2004 with a couple of members, both married to each other and both grew up in the Church and we were talking about marriage. She came out of nowhere and said, "when it comes to marriage Mormonism isn't reality" I could only speculate as to what she meant by that remark. I think though we need to connect what we learn on sunday, assuming it's true, to our everyday lives but how we do that is different for each of us-for me that was a hard lesson to learn. There isn't one mold of the Church, we are or should be being molded into like Christ, not each other

[JLHPROF]

The holy spirit can only lead towards the truth because it comes from God and God cannot lie.
Other spirits can lead in a variety of directions.

Now, if the spirit leads people in two different directions, one of those spirits is false.  The Holy Ghost cannot lie, and therefore does not contradict itself.
If the Holy Spirit is actually telling you that the Church is false, then it is false for everyone.

[ksfisher]

26 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

But what if the individual no longer believes those covenants though he may see the error of his ways either later in this life or the afterlife? Why couldn't he recommit at that point?

I don't know.  I do know that it's repeatedly taught in the scriptures to do things now.  Repent now.  Change now.  Keep the commandments now.  We all make mistakes and continually have to repent, but if we decide to repent tomorrow we run the risk of tomorrow never coming.  We will be judged by what we do in this life.

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

The Spirit directs us individuals, huh?

As some of you know and some of you have figured out, I have a tough time with Church.  I feel pretty torn.  The Spirit is pulling me away from Church more and more as I live my life these days.  It's tough.  I'm getting pulled away while I'm also wanting to hold on.  I hate to give up on the tradition that is church in my life.  It's always been there.  I don't know that I benefit from going, personally anymore, but I still go because it is that ingrained in me.  Wife would be happy to leave and would head for the hills as fast as she can if I said, "i'm not going to Church" or something like it.  I like to hold on to it, even though I really don't fit.  She often wants out, but stays gets rejuvenated after we address the issue and I give every reason I can come up with to stay.  So anyway, the Spirit prompted me out years ago.  If I were like Elder Rasband or thought like him I'd be gone, I guess.  I like to weigh in the balance what is prompting me and all other resources.  But as it is, maybe I'm being way too cautious this time.  Maybe I should just go with the promptings and be done with it.  I wonder what God would have in store for me.

Some questions that can be addressed more generally, if you like:

Is there spiritual life outside Mormonism, in your view, as fulfilling as is in Mormonism? 

If someone leaves on his/her own volition, claiming to be led by God, is he/she automatically an apostate enemy type?  My neighbors for instance already tons of bad things they discuss about us as it relates to Church, seeing as we're so unorthodox (sorry MFBukowski, but not sure how else to put it).  We get a chuckle out fo the things that leak back to us in some way or another, but in some member's minds we're definitely apostate fools. 

Should such a person not be welcome to post on this board? 

Stem, this is far and away one of your more enjoyable, positive posts that I have seen (Granted, I do confuse individuals and I don't always remember things correctly).  

1. Is there a spiritual life after Mormonism or outside of Mormonism?  Absolutely and without a doubt one can have a deeply spiritual life outside of the restored Church of Jesus Christ.
2. Should you and others like you be welcome on this Board?  If you write like this absolutely.  However, I really, really dislike the consistent tearing down of the Church from some individuals.  It makes the entire Board less, much less at times, enjoyable.

I will say that for someone who is being led by the Spirit to leave you would question whether you will have a spiritual life outside of the Church.  That appears to be a dissonance - if you are spiritual now why would it be different after having actually left the Church?

Attitude has a lot to do with almost everything in life.  If your attitude sucks your life is going to suck also. It is even worse when both husband and wife have a crappy attitude.  Regardless, the lukewarm thing comes to mind and you need to get off the fence.

If you are going to choose to go where would you go and why?