Squaring Church with life

[stemelbow]

15 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

No, not everyone is happy, your comments suggest your wife is unhappy with the Church and would leave yesterday. Also, your comments suggest you don't want to be a member. The defense you once gave was on a website that we both visited often. Also, to what problems the Church is having that you refer too? In not her thread the only mention of General Conference was to pick apart an address, where you pointed out what you,perceived as contiditions. 

I do not say this in anger...go forth and find joy, you can still post here. 

Hey there Papa.  I know I've seen you around in different areas of the net over the years, but I'm not sure which site you are referencing in these posts. 

I think that's enough about my wife.  She speaks her mind and I'll leave it be.  She stays and has stayed for her own reasons.  We like to talk it out and I may have given myself credit where credit was not due.  She makes her decisions and without my points she might very well still be in. 

One point in my thread about Conference was, no one was talking about it.  I brought up one talk that I maintain was problematic because I wanted people's thoughts.  It was a bother to me when I heard it, and then read it, a week or so later. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I think that's enough about my wife.  She speaks her mind and I'll leave it be.  She stays and has stayed for her own reasons.  We like to talk it out and I may have given myself credit where credit was not due.  She makes her decisions and without my points she might very well still be in.

Forgive me, but this seems a cheap shot, I did not bring your wife into this thread, you did. You said she would leave tomorrow, and then listed the "problems the Church is having" as to why you are considering leaving, or why you want to leave. I was merely speaking to your post. You can always block me, ignore me, as you wish. But lease don't make me look like a bully, or making insulting comments about your wife or yourself. I was simply giving my advice, or opinion, that you should not be miserable for being a member. The Church is not for everyone...go, and find joy elsewhere, be happy. You can still post here and find greater freedom to list what you believe the many faults of our Faith. In fact once gone, you will find even more faults, and feel compelled to list them...to "kick against the pricks" as scripture states. I don't pick of women,  I don't nsult non-members, and I am not an opportunist or cruel, nor do I appreciate being shown in that negative light. 

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Forgive me, but this seems a cheap shot, I did not bring your wife into this thread, you did. You said she would leave tomorrow, and then listed the "problems the Church is having" as to why you are considering leaving, or why you want to leave. I was merely speaking to your post. You can always block me, ignore me, as you wish. But lease don't make me look like a bully, or making insulting comments about your wife or yourself. I was simply giving my advice, or opinion, that you should not be miserable for being a member. The Church is not for everyone...go, and find joy elsewhere, be happy. You can still post here and find greater freedom to list what you believe the many faults of our Faith. In fact once gone, you will find even more faults, and feel compelled to list them...to "kick against the pricks" as scripture states. I don't pick of women,  I don't nsult non-members, and I am not an opportunist or cruel, nor do I appreciate being shown in that negative light. 

I did not intend to say you did anything offensive.  I merely wanted to drop the discussion of my wife's thoughts, even though, I realize I'm the one who introduced the topic.  I just don't want to head down that road anymore.  Your comments were fine and I did not see them as you bullying me. 

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I did not intend to say you did anything offensive.  I merely wanted to drop the discussion of my wife's thoughts, even though, I realize I'm the one who introduced the topic.  I just don't want to head down that road anymore.  Your comments were fine and I did not see them as you bullying me. 

Thank you, and if I read you wrong, I ask for your forgiveness. The site to which I referee was the "board not to be named", but for this purpose I will. CARM, and if you leave, you will be a superstar on many sites who love to hate Mormons...in fact it is a requirement. One many of these sites, they would not pour water on Mormons if they were on fire, because we all deserve to burn eternally.. 

[stemelbow]

1 minute ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Thank you, and if I read you wrong, I ask for your forgiveness. The site to which I referee was the "board not to be named", but for this purpose I will. CARM, and if you leave, you will be a superstar on many sites who love to hate Mormons...in fact it is a requirement. One many of these sites, they would not pour water on Mormons if they were on fire, because we all deserve to burn eternally.. 

OH man, CARM.  That was a long time ago.  If I leave I don't really think the conservative branch of evangelicalism would be my solace, though.  I dont' see how they could claim victory, in any sense.  If anything they pushed me further away from their position. 

Thanks for the brief memory.  You have not in any way offended me, btw.  I wish you well and appreciate your posts. 

[randy]

I guess I may be odd man out here, but my thoughts on all this is this.  I am 60yrs old. Married almost 44 yrs. six grown kids, soon to be 22 grandkids. I live in Indep. Mo...so I have had my fair share of "standing up for the faith", but arguably from a different angle.  I have had my share of "mountain top" experiences..as well as some "got my butt kicked and wandering in the wilderness" experiences as well.

I am a simple minded person. During one of my "mountain top" experiences..I came to know that Pres. Kimball was a Prophet of God (I was 18yrs old) , and so by extension....everything else attendant to that must of necessity be true as well.  So, when I have had doubts, or when I struggled, when I found myself wandering aimlessly...rudderless...I simply remember that singular, sublime and sacred experience.  Now days, when this happens..I try to just say in my mind the title of Elder Andersons Conference talk...."It's true isn't it? What Else matters?"  Then peace and solace comes.

 

Edited April 23, 2017 by randy

[JLHPROF]

42 minutes ago, randy said:

I guess I may be odd man out here, but my thoughts on all this is this.  I am 60yrs old. Married almost 44 yrs. six grown kids, soon to be 22 grandkids. I live in Indep. Mo...so I have had my fair share of "standing up for the faith", but arguably from a different angle.  I have had my share of "mountain top" experiences..as well as some "got my butt kicked and wandering in the wilderness" experiences as well.

I am a simple minded person. During one of my "mountain top" experiences..I came to know that Pres. Kimball was a Prophet of God (I was 18yrs old) , and so by extension....everything else attendant to that must of necessity be true as well.  So, when I have had doubts, or when I struggled, when I found myself wandering aimlessly...rudderless...I simply remember that singular, sublime and sacred experience.  Now days, when this happens..I try to just say in my mind the title of Elder Andersons Conference talk...."It's true isn't it? What Else matters?"  Then peace and solace comes.

 

D&C 6:22 Verily, verily, I say unto you, if you desire a further witness, cast your mind upon the night that you cried unto me in your heart, that you might know concerning the truth of these things.

23 Did I not speak peace to your mind concerning the matter? What greater witness can you have than from God?

Edited April 23, 2017 by JLHPROF

[stemelbow]

1 hour ago, randy said:

I guess I may be odd man out here, but my thoughts on all this is this.  I am 60yrs old. Married almost 44 yrs. six grown kids, soon to be 22 grandkids. I live in Indep. Mo...so I have had my fair share of "standing up for the faith", but arguably from a different angle.  I have had my share of "mountain top" experiences..as well as some "got my butt kicked and wandering in the wilderness" experiences as well.

I am a simple minded person. During one of my "mountain top" experiences..I came to know that Pres. Kimball was a Prophet of God (I was 18yrs old) , and so by extension....everything else attendant to that must of necessity be true as well.  So, when I have had doubts, or when I struggled, when I found myself wandering aimlessly...rudderless...I simply remember that singular, sublime and sacred experience.  Now days, when this happens..I try to just say in my mind the title of Elder Andersons Conference talk...."It's true isn't it? What Else matters?"  Then peace and solace comes.

 

I appreciate your perspective Randy and am glad you shared.  I don't think you're alone at all.  In fact I think you are in with the majority of active leaning LDS.  I think spiritual experiences come in many ways at different times that help influence who we are.  I also think the methods of spiritual experience are not foolproof,  and compared to god we're all a little foolish.  As I see it we're supposed to have many spiritual experiences in life that as they come help us learn and grow, even evolve.  With that said it's no wonder humans arrive at different conclusions on all of this.  I think it's intended.  Whether monson is a prophet of god feels less important to me than what is meant by saying he's a prophet of god.  Perhaps he is and in many ways perhaps many other people are too.  There is plenty of complexity, plenty to consider and reconsider in life.  As I continue forward in life it feels more and more gray.  Less and less black and white.  And that feels like it helps me expand my mind and my spirit.  I can't help but appreciate that.  This all makes me go less with the "what else matters?" Mindset.  But I can appreciate others prefer that.  There beauty in that place too.  So thanks.  

[carbon dioxide]

On 4/17/2017 at 1:13 PM, stemelbow said:

 Mormonism? 

If someone leaves on his/her own volition, claiming to be led by God, is he/she automatically an apostate enemy type?  My neighbors for instance already tons of bad things they discuss about us as it relates to Church, seeing as we're so unorthodox (sorry MFBukowski, but not sure how else to put it).  We get a chuckle out fo the things that leak back to us in some way or another, but in some member's minds we're definitely apostate fools. 

Yes there is spiritual life for people who leave the church.  The real payout for being a member of the Church starts a few moments after death and for those who leave well....

[Meadowchik]

2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Yes there is spiritual life for people who leave the church.  The real payout for being a member of the Church starts a few moments after death and for those who leave well....

Even in Mormonism, we are accountable to what we know. If, then, a member leaves because they honestly belief it is the correct choice, following their conscience, would God really punish them?

Does God punish honest obedience to true principles? I don't think so.

[Jeanne]

May you

6 hours ago, randy said:

I guess I may be odd man out here, but my thoughts on all this is this.  I am 60yrs old. Married almost 44 yrs. six grown kids, soon to be 22 grandkids. I live in Indep. Mo...so I have had my fair share of "standing up for the faith", but arguably from a different angle.  I have had my share of "mountain top" experiences..as well as some "got my butt kicked and wandering in the wilderness" experiences as well.

I am a simple minded person. During one of my "mountain top" experiences..I came to know that Pres. Kimball was a Prophet of God (I was 18yrs old) , and so by extension....everything else attendant to that must of necessity be true as well.  So, when I have had doubts, or when I struggled, when I found myself wandering aimlessly...rudderless...I simply remember that singular, sublime and sacred experience.  Now days, when this happens..I try to just say in my mind the title of Elder Andersons Conference talk...."It's true isn't it? What Else matters?"  Then peace and solace comes.

 

I like this because I can tell that it came from the heart.  May God Bless You!  May you always hold on to a conviction that is yours.while being patient and loving to those who may feel differently than you. I am sure you are because there is a very Christlike certain radiance in your own testimony. 

Edited April 23, 2017 by Jeanne

[randy]

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 3:32 PM, Jeanne said:

May you

I like this because I can tell that it came from the heart.  May God Bless You!  May you always hold on to a conviction that is yours.while being patient and loving to those who may feel differently than you. I am sure you are because there is a very Christlike certain radiance in your own testimony. 

Jeanne,  Thank you so much for this!  I don't post much, but I do keep track of things on the board and have over a period of many years now.  I have come to appreciate very much your sweet spirit.  Of my six kids...two are "active" and the rest are choosing a different path.  None are "anti" in any way...just choosing a different path. I used to believe if I could just explain things a little better,  be a better example, rattle their cage a bit harder and longer (that never works, but I tried it just in case)...but as I matured (finally) in the gospel...I came to accept that they are simply making their own choices in this life, and that is what this life is all about. Choices.

Looking back on that experience in 1977,  just in the presence of Pres. Kimball and my wife and I (it only lasted about 210 seconds)...my life was changed. For me, it was such a simple yet supernal and sacred experience.  This happened at 1045pm outside the Mission Home in Indep. Mo...Pres. Kimball was in Indep. to meet with the Mission President and Stake President about Church owned properties (my best friend was the son of the Stake President whose family I've known forever), anyway...Pres. Kimball comes out....just by himself...walks by me without saying a word, goes straight to my wife...cups her face in his hands and kisses her on the cheek and then turns to me and says "you always cherish her"...and I said "I will President".  That was it.  But the spirit bore a powerful and irrefutable witness to my soul that I was in the presence of his Prophet.  I knew it wasn't born out of a sense of awe, or celebrity etc...it was so much more than that....and so totally different than anything else I had ever experienced before or since.  I just felt the Lord knew what I needed in my life at that moment in time and he simply gave it to me in 210 seconds, and it has lasted my entire life, and even now as I type these words...tears fill my eyes when I think how much the Lord loves me.

So, I guess...my thoughts are these....I know this gospel is true based upon this singular sacred experience. As I say....from that experience....I could then confidently (usually) navigate through the whitewaters of life (fathers suicide, my brothers tragic death at 33yrs)...any struggles I might have had in my church life...and at the end of the day..for me, it all comes down to "It's true isn't it, what else matters?" 

Jeanne...again, thank you so much for taking time to share your heart with me. I so appreciate it. Time...the single most precious gift we can give to one another! Thank You!

 

Edited April 27, 2017 by randy

[bluebell]

On 4/23/2017 at 2:13 PM, Meadowchik said:

Even in Mormonism, we are accountable to what we know. If, then, a member leaves because they honestly belief it is the correct choice, following their conscience, would God really punish them?

Does God punish honest obedience to true principles? I don't think so.

I agree.    I think that all God can expect of us is that we do what we honestly and sincerely believe is His will.  Might we be wrong sometimes?  Of course, but I don't think God punishes us for that.  

We'll likely have to deal with the natural consequences of traveling on the wrong path for a time--and those could very well help get us to the right path--but that's a different issue than punishment.

Edited April 27, 2017 by bluebell

[randy]

On ‎4‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 10:25 AM, stemelbow said:

I appreciate your perspective Randy and am glad you shared.  I don't think you're alone at all.  In fact I think you are in with the majority of active leaning LDS.  I think spiritual experiences come in many ways at different times that help influence who we are.  I also think the methods of spiritual experience are not foolproof,  and compared to god we're all a little foolish.  As I see it we're supposed to have many spiritual experiences in life that as they come help us learn and grow, even evolve.  With that said it's no wonder humans arrive at different conclusions on all of this.  I think it's intended.  Whether monson is a prophet of god feels less important to me than what is meant by saying he's a prophet of god.  Perhaps he is and in many ways perhaps many other people are too.  There is plenty of complexity, plenty to consider and reconsider in life.  As I continue forward in life it feels more and more gray.  Less and less black and white.  And that feels like it helps me expand my mind and my spirit.  I can't help but appreciate that.  This all makes me go less with the "what else matters?" Mindset.  But I can appreciate others prefer that.  There beauty in that place too.  So thanks.  

Stem,

Thank you for this as well!  I appreciate your perspective on this.  This life is all about choices...and your choices are yours.   We go through this life as best we can, we make the best choices we can...and we strive to live the best and most honorable life we can based upon the knowledge we have, the spiritual gifts we've been given and the testimony we have.  We can all take comfort in knowing that we will all be judged righteously in that day by a loving Savior.  All we can do in this life is live the best we can with the light we've each been given.

So...good luck and God Speed to you Bro. Stemelbow...may God always watch over and protect you on your journey here!

Edited April 27, 2017 by randy

[Jeanne]

33 minutes ago, randy said:

Jeanne,  Thank you so much for this!  I don't post much, but I do keep track of things on the board and have over a period of many years now.  I have come to appreciate very much your sweet spirit.  Of my six kids...two are "active" and the rest are choosing a different path.  None are "anti" in any way...just choosing a different path. I used to believe if I could just explain things a little better,  be a better example, rattle their cage a bit harder and longer (that never works, but I tried it just in case)...but as I matured (finally) in the gospel...I came to accept that they are simply making their own choices in this life, and that is what this life is all about. Choices.

Looking back on that experience in 1977,  just in the presence of Pres. Kimball and my wife and I (it only lasted about 210 seconds)...my life was changed. For me, it was such a simple yet supernal and sacred experience.  This happened at 1045pm outside the Mission Home in Indep. Mo...Pres. Kimball was in Indep. to meet with the Mission President and Stake President about Church owned properties (my best friend was the son of the Stake President whose family I've known forever), anyway...Pres. Kimball comes out....just by himself...walks by me without saying a word, goes straight to my wife...cups her face in his hands and kisses her on the cheek and then turns to me and says "you always cherish her"...and I said "I will President".  That was it.  But the spirit bore a powerful and irrefutable witness to my soul that I was in the presence of his Prophet.  I knew it wasn't born out of a sense of awe, or celebrity etc...it was so much more than that....and so totally different than anything else I had ever experienced before or since.  I just felt the Lord knew what I needed in my life at that moment in time and he simply gave it to me in 210 seconds, and it has lasted my entire life, and even now as I type these words...tears fill my eyes when I think how much the Lord loves me.

So, I guess...my thoughts are these....I know this gospel is true based upon this singular sacred experience. As I say....from that experience....I could then confidently (usually) navigate through the whitewaters of life (fathers suicide, my brothers tragic death at 33yrs)...any struggles I might have had in my church life...and at the end of the day..for me, it all comes down to "It's true isn't it, what else matters?" 

Jeanne...again, thank you so much for taking time to share your heart with me. I so appreciate it. Time...the single most precious gift we can give to one another! Thank You!

 

Just checking in long enough to respond to randy's post.  Thank you..for being so honest, sincere and loving.  I wish you this confidence of feelings and in your truth a life that brings great joy.  Best to you. 

[JulieM]

44 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Just checking in long enough to respond to randy's post.

I hope you check in often (and continue posting often too!).  Don't allow the actions or words of a few drive you away from this board.  You have a very sweet, kind, gentle way about you and a view of things that have helped many (including myself).