Squaring Church with life

[stemelbow]

5 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The holy spirit can only lead towards the truth because it comes from God and God cannot lie.
Other spirits can lead in a variety of directions.

Now, if the spirit leads people in two different directions, one of those spirits is false.  The Holy Ghost cannot lie, and therefore does not contradict itself.
If the Holy Spirit is actually telling you that the Church is false, then it is false for everyone.

If you were correct how easy life would be.  The church would gobble up the earth with no restrictions and all that.  But as it is god works on individuals.  He leads individualists and no one follows the same course.  So your reasoned conclusion just isn't possible.  It seems god is less about revealing truth and more about getting people to salvation. 

[stemelbow]

2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Stem, this is far and away one of your more enjoyable, positive posts that I have seen (Granted, I do confuse individuals and I don't always remember things correctly).  

 

You've missed some great posts then😊

2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

1. Is there a spiritual life after Mormonism or outside of Mormonism?  Absolutely and without a doubt one can have a deeply spiritual life outside of the restored Church of Jesus Christ.
2. Should you and others like you be welcome on this Board?  If you write like this absolutely.  However, I really, really dislike the consistent tearing down of the Church from some individuals.  It makes the entire Board less, much less at times, enjoyable.

I will say that for someone who is being led by the Spirit to leave you would question whether you will have a spiritual life outside of the Church.  That appears to be a dissonance - if you are spiritual now why would it be different after having actually left the Church?

I bring it up as a point of discussion. I do think God is outside the church

2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

 

Attitude has a lot to do with almost everything in life.  If your attitude sucks your life is going to suck also. It is even worse when both husband and wife have a crappy attitude.  Regardless, the lukewarm thing comes to mind and you need to get off the fence.

If you are going to choose to go where would you go and why?

 

Ok

[bsjkki]

42 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wish I'd been better inspired. My reactions to my kids not wanting to go to church probably caused them to become inactive. Nothing physical, just arguments about them living the rules in the household. I guess some are a little more rebellious. I do have one that served a mission and wasn't rebellious, but he and his wife are inactive, so that is a surprise. Even though I have struggles to believe, I still think it's great for social reasons for kids starting out. But maybe it's just me that needs structures to help me meet and have friends. 

It's never a one size or one solution for all. I found my pride took a huge hit when my kids struggled with activity. I was way too concerned about what people would think.  It took me 5 years to get to the place I am now and it is a much better place. It's a much more Christ like place. I think I like Renlund's quote so much because I see my past-self in it. "a repenting sinner draws closer to God than does the self-righteous person who condemns that sinner." I also loved this quote by Eyring from Women's Conference. I think it sums up my last five years. "Those who do not see their weaknesses do not progress."

I also loved when in R.S. a new convert spoke up and said she thought we were all way too hard on ourselves. As LDS women, I think that is true too.

Edited April 17, 2017 by bsjkki

[RevTestament]

3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

The Spirit directs us individuals, huh?

As some of you know and some of you have figured out, I have a tough time with Church.  I feel pretty torn.  The Spirit is pulling me away from Church more and more as I live my life these days.  It's tough.  I'm getting pulled away while I'm also wanting to hold on.  I hate to give up on the tradition that is church in my life.  It's always been there.  I don't know that I benefit from going, personally anymore, but I still go because it is that ingrained in me.  Wife would be happy to leave and would head for the hills as fast as she can if I said, "i'm not going to Church" or something like it.  I like to hold on to it, even though I really don't fit.  She often wants out, but stays gets rejuvenated after we address the issue and I give every reason I can come up with to stay.  So anyway, the Spirit prompted me out years ago.  If I were like Elder Rasband or thought like him I'd be gone, I guess.  I like to weigh in the balance what is prompting me and all other resources.  But as it is, maybe I'm being way too cautious this time.  Maybe I should just go with the promptings and be done with it.  I wonder what God would have in store for me.

I doubt the Spirit is pulling you away from Church, but I can definitely identify with feeling a certain incongruity with Church. I stay because it is where the Lord has put me. Sometimes, I would just like to pick up and go back to my home state and be done with it. I feel like the Lord put me here just to get knocked around, because I don't see the Church changing much.... I think they are only beginning to realize they need to change. Nevertheless, as much as I feel kind of like a square peg in a round hole, I stay because I know this is the Church in which the Lord dwells. I've been to many others, and I know I don't fit there. There is no going back for me. I'm committed to the Lord - not any particular leadership so much. I don't really try to fit in - in fact I'm probably slightly rebellious of the "Mormon mold." I wore a red shirt yesterday... And despite its imperfections, the Church still spiritually feeds me. This last conference was a very good example of that. I really enjoyed this last conference.

Quote

Some questions that can be addressed more generally, if you like:

Is there spiritual life outside Mormonism, in your view, as fulfilling as is in Mormonism? 

I'm a scripturian, so for me church has to comport with the scriptures. There simply are no other churches that do. Been there done that. I joined the Church based on my testimony of the Bible. Since that time I've basically been a non-trinitarian. There just is no other Church where I can go to worship God in His Spirit and Truth. There are a few other non-Trinitarian sects, but most of them don't think of Jesus as God. I worship Jesus as one with the Father, and know Him to be YHWH Elohim with the Father, El Elyon, the Most High. There just is no other Church which allows this understanding. But that is not all - the Lord has confirmed the Book of Mormon for me, and told me this is His Church, and scripture confirms that. Take heart - you are in the right place. Don't leave now at the twelth hour.

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If someone leaves on his/her own volition, claiming to be led by God, is he/she automatically an apostate enemy type?  My neighbors for instance already tons of bad things they discuss about us as it relates to Church, seeing as we're so unorthodox (sorry MFBukowski, but not sure how else to put it).  We get a chuckle out fo the things that leak back to us in some way or another, but in some member's minds we're definitely apostate fools. 

Should such a person not be welcome to post on this board? 

My parents left, and they aren't Church enemies. In fact at one point they considered returning. I believe everyone wanting to discuss LDS interpretations of the scriptures, and all things LDS, should be welcome to do so here so long as they do it respectfully. I believe this board provides an important outlet for those needing to get things off their chest....

 

[Mystery Meat]

I think it is perfectly possible to believe that the Spirit may/could prompt someone to leave the Church, once one considers the ultimate purpose of the Church. The Church is the only organization that can prepare people for a Celestial life. There are any number of organizations that can help people live a Terrestial or Telestial life in this life and/or the next. Not everyone is going to be happy in the Celestial Kingdom and God is not going to force anyone to be there. I have to imagine that many of the people who are not happy in the Church won't be happy in the Celestial Kingdom (as many of the Doctrines (such as SSM) will trouble people in the next life as well).

As the other kingdoms are degrees of glory, there absolutely is a spiritual life for people aiming to get there (whether knowingly or unknowingly). This was not meant to be a backhanded post, but from my position (where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is the Lord's Church and His Kingdom of God on earth, not just for me but for everybody) then there would have to be a reason for the Lord to basically tell people to not strive to return to His presence. Continued unhappiness and struggle to find peace with the Lord and how he does things seems like a pretty merciful and good reason.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

If you were correct how easy life would be.  The church would gobble up the earth with no restrictions and all that.  But as it is god works on individuals.  He leads individualists and no one follows the same course.  So your reasoned conclusion just isn't possible.  It seems god is less about revealing truth and more about getting people to salvation. 

I too do not think the light of Christ and the power, influence or gift of the Holy Ghost can direct people away from the "fulness" as a means to redirect our path to a better appreciation and use of the Gospel. They always build line upon line, always invite and always call us back when we backslide.

Matthew 25:29 does not mean the Lord takes away light and truth as a means to help us start over. Rather, the wicked one does that, but not to help us start over (D&C 93: 39)!

When someone is excommunicated for examlple, the wicked one has already come and the Lord and those with the keys of repentance have shown up to redirect the lost soul. When someone dies having the rejected the Gospel, I suppose the same is also true if he repents according to the instructions he receives from those with the same keys in the spirit world. And of course anyone can repent of lapsing or resigningg or whatever.

I think the light of Christ and the power and influence of the Holy Ghost can and do operate everywhere and anywhere, and to the degree people will receive them. The Restored Gospel and the Church will not always be in their view or among their options, whether by circumstance or by choice, but the latter does not mean that God led them away from anything. His is a purely positive influence; He does not lead us away from darkness into neutrality (there simply isn’t the competition to warrant that) so much as He always leads us into the light. “He doeth not anything save it be for the benefit of the world; for he loveth the world, even that he layeth down his own life that he may draw all men unto him. …Wherefore, he commandeth none that they shall not partake of his salvation …wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love.”

[CV75]

7 minutes ago, Mystery Meat said:

there would have to be a reason for the Lord to basically tell people to not strive to return to His presence. Continued unhappiness and struggle to find peace with the Lord and how he does things seems like a pretty merciful and good reason.

I think at some point, the Lord simply accepts their decision to not accept of the fulness He offers, and that is what we might call His judgement at the last day. His mercy is in that they do obtain some kind of kingdom of glory where they are as happy as they are willing to be, given the trade-off (D&C 88:32).

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

It seems god is less about revealing truth and more about getting people to salvation.

 

There is no salvation without truth.
Multiple paths to salvation are a myth.

Quote

 I do think God is outside the church

Of course God is outside the Church too, and working on people no matter what faith they profess.
But the path to God has only one gate.

 

Edited April 18, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Of course God is outside the Church too, and working on people no matter what faith they profess.
But the path to God has only one gate.

That's the big gate and it is way, way up there near the end of the path, but there are many smaller gates and turn stiles to go through before we get there.

[RevTestament]

18 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

There is no salvation without truth.
Multiple paths to salvation are a myth.

In a big sense this is true, but I believe there are many people on the wrong path who will eventually receive salvation - they may have to receive some Hell first before being saved to the telestial world, but that is still salvation. But yes, in the big sense they will only be saved by believing and repenting through our Savior - the same as everyone else.

[Vanguard]

3 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I don't know.  I do know that it's repeatedly taught in the scriptures to do things now.  Repent now.  Change now.  Keep the commandments now.  We all make mistakes and continually have to repent, but if we decide to repent tomorrow we run the risk of tomorrow never coming.  We will be judged by what we do in this life.

I absolutely agree with you though considering the fact that none of us are carbon copies regards to our capacities then doing "things now" becomes a relative term, does it not? None of us will have reached our final breath having done everything expected of us. Our accomplishments must run through the prism of our own capacities and that includes the principal of repentance. If we can't keep all of the other commandments perfectly then it stands to reason we can't repent perfectly either. There is simply no way to know whether we procrastinate the day of our repentance such that it becomes too late. Everyone is on their own path and at their own rate.

On a later post in this  thread I believe Mystery Meat commented something to the effect that it is only through the Church that enables us to receive the Celestial Glory. I disagree. We all know there are far more individuals who will reach Celestial Glory without having availed themselves of the blessings of the Church in this mortality. Why can't that be true of former members who have left the Faith in good faith?

[california boy]

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

The Spirit directs us individuals, huh?

As some of you know and some of you have figured out, I have a tough time with Church.  I feel pretty torn.  The Spirit is pulling me away from Church more and more as I live my life these days.  It's tough.  I'm getting pulled away while I'm also wanting to hold on.  I hate to give up on the tradition that is church in my life.  It's always been there.  I don't know that I benefit from going, personally anymore, but I still go because it is that ingrained in me.  Wife would be happy to leave and would head for the hills as fast as she can if I said, "i'm not going to Church" or something like it.  I like to hold on to it, even though I really don't fit.  She often wants out, but stays gets rejuvenated after we address the issue and I give every reason I can come up with to stay.  So anyway, the Spirit prompted me out years ago.  If I were like Elder Rasband or thought like him I'd be gone, I guess.  I like to weigh in the balance what is prompting me and all other resources.  But as it is, maybe I'm being way too cautious this time.  Maybe I should just go with the promptings and be done with it.  I wonder what God would have in store for me.

I hesitate to advise anyone what to do when it comes to drawing closer to God.  Clearly there are many that find the church the vehicle that helps them draw closer to God.  It works so well in their lives that they believe it is the only way back to God.  And for them, it very well may be the only way back to God.  Is it your path?  Honestly you will have to figure that out.  You aren't going to get any answers on this board.  

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Some questions that can be addressed more generally, if you like:

Is there spiritual life outside Mormonism, in your view, as fulfilling as is in Mormonism? 

Absolutely.  With out a single bit of hesitation I can tell you that I am more at peace with God and feel closer to Him since I left the church.  It is hard to explain, perhaps like any testimony is hard to explain, but I know that I am  clearly better not only spiritually but in other ways as well since I left the church.  I felt it almost immediately.  Or maybe even before I left, just like you are feeling.  I continue to rely on those feelings that assure me that I am better off away from the church.  I have attended occasionally after leaving.  I get this dark feeling like I shouldn't be there.  And then as if those promptings are not enough, stuff just happens.  People say things that are clear warning signs that I should keep my distance from the church.  

Maybe more importantly, I can tell you how things have changed for me.  I feel like there is a lot of things built into the structure of the church that was preventing me from progressing towards God.  Some of it is built into the organization of the church.  Some of it is built into the dogma of the church.  And some of it is built into the policies of the church.  When I left the church, I felt like I had a blank canvas, and the only way to know what to do was to rely on the Spirit.  No one was there telling me what I should do.  It was just me and the Spirit.  I stripped away the things that I felt were keeping me from a better relationship with God and began to focus on those things that were bringing me closer to Him.  The gospel of Jesus Christ is beautifully simple, and simply beautiful.  Ever hear that statement?  When you start caring less about what men think of your relationship to God and more about what God thinks of your relationship with Him, then things start to change.  Yes, I have kept many of the values and teachings that I grew up with in the church.  But there was a lot that was just unimportant.  I could make a huge list of what I am talking about, but I think even members of the church know what I am talking about.  Something just doesn't ring true, no matter how many talks you hear on certain subjects.  It just feels wrong.

 

6 hours ago, stemelbow said:

If someone leaves on his/her own volition, claiming to be led by God, is he/she automatically an apostate enemy type?  My neighbors for instance already tons of bad things they discuss about us as it relates to Church, seeing as we're so unorthodox (sorry MFBukowski, but not sure how else to put it).  We get a chuckle out fo the things that leak back to us in some way or another, but in some member's minds we're definitely apostate fools. 

Should such a person not be welcome to post on this board? 

You have to not worry what others will label you.  You have to be willing to ignore a lot of ignorant comments.  You have to accept that others may very well be guided by God in a different way.  I have 5 kids.  The one thing I learned early on is that you can not guide all your children the exact same way.  Some flourish with lots of structure.  Others, it sucks the life out of them.  Some learn best by having difficult life lessons to overcome, sometimes of their own making.  Others seem to be the golden boy where nothing bad happens to them, yet they still are on a path that is good for them.  At least that is the way my kids are.  Do you think the children of God are any different?  

[BlueDreams]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

The Spirit directs us individuals, huh?

As some of you know and some of you have figured out, I have a tough time with Church.  I feel pretty torn.  The Spirit is pulling me away from Church more and more as I live my life these days.  It's tough.  I'm getting pulled away while I'm also wanting to hold on.  I hate to give up on the tradition that is church in my life.  It's always been there.  I don't know that I benefit from going, personally anymore, but I still go because it is that ingrained in me.  Wife would be happy to leave and would head for the hills as fast as she can if I said, "i'm not going to Church" or something like it.  I like to hold on to it, even though I really don't fit.  She often wants out, but stays gets rejuvenated after we address the issue and I give every reason I can come up with to stay.  So anyway, the Spirit prompted me out years ago.  If I were like Elder Rasband or thought like him I'd be gone, I guess.  I like to weigh in the balance what is prompting me and all other resources.  But as it is, maybe I'm being way too cautious this time.  Maybe I should just go with the promptings and be done with it.  I wonder what God would have in store for me.

 

I am not you and I assume most people who've responded has responded in part from their own experience, expectations, and desires.  I'll probably do the same. The first thing that came to mind was a friend that got answers that never really were what God actually expected. For example she got the answer that she wouldn't have children, but now she's pregnant. She had several weird answers toward relationships that she knew wouldn't work. And she's not the only one I've seen that with. Often, though they were counter-intuitive, they did help them face something they weren't really facing, learn, and grow even if that growth was painful.  Mine have always been straight forward. What was expected was expected and that was that...but sometimes God would give me an odder answer to make me realize that even if I receive an answer it was my choice as to what I would do with it. That he would never take that choice away even if the directions were pretty clear. 

The second is tied in. It's your decision and maybe that's all that this answer means....that he wants you to make a choice and live up to it whatever it is. From what I see, there's things you don't like about the church, but there is obviously something that draws you to it or you wouldn't still be going....even when your wife would happily leave. It kinda reminds me about the scriptures about being lukewarm (revelations 3, if you're wanting to look it up). Sometimes, instead of fence-sitting it's just about making a choice and living by that decision instead of constantly wondering whether the grass really would have been greener on the other side. That way you can work with making the place you choose green and good wherever that be. And instead of just simply stating: do this or do that, I think sometimes God purposely reminds us that its your choice and it HAS to be your choice. Any other way and we can grow resentful about where we're planted and may not truly give our whole hearts into it. 

Lastly, I don't know what the "correct" interpretation to your spiritual promptings are. I'm not God. That's not my place. Obviously, my inclination is towards staying in the church. But I'm still not you and I've seen God do some crazy things and give some crazy directions. Including to myself...so who am I to tell you straight up to do this or that? 
 

Quote

 

Some questions that can be addressed more generally, if you like:

Is there spiritual life outside Mormonism, in your view, as fulfilling as is in Mormonism? 

 

Of course there is. I've valued many other people in other faith traditions and experiences for their spiritual life, depth, and wisdom. But it may be important to remember that if you're looking for another faith community it's not likely that you'll find the "perfect" one. All communities have things that we will likely enjoy and that irritate us because they have people in them. And that's people for you.

Quote

 

If someone leaves on his/her own volition, claiming to be led by God, is he/she automatically an apostate enemy type?  My neighbors for instance already tons of bad things they discuss about us as it relates to Church, seeing as we're so unorthodox (sorry MFBukowski, but not sure how else to put it).  We get a chuckle out fo the things that leak back to us in some way or another, but in some member's minds we're definitely apostate fools. 

 

They sound like annoying busy body brats who need to mind their own business. Honestly, doing what they are is very clearly lined out as not okay. Gossiping about your neighbor isn't ok. 

Quote

Should such a person not be welcome to post on this board? 

No. That's not enough to decide whether someone is welcome here or not. There are people already here that fit that description.

 

In all things, good luck!

With luv,

BD

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, stemelbow said:

If you were correct how easy life would be.  The church would gobble up the earth with no restrictions and all that.  But as it is god works on individuals.  He leads individualists and no one follows the same course.  So your reasoned conclusion just isn't possible.  It seems god is less about revealing truth and more about getting people to salvation. 

Your conclusion is based on the false premise that people follow the Spirit.

[Glenn101]

8 hours ago, stemelbow said:

If you were correct how easy life would be.  The church would gobble up the earth with no restrictions and all that.  But as it is god works on individuals.  He leads individualists and no one follows the same course.  So your reasoned conclusion just isn't possible.  It seems god is less about revealing truth and more about getting people to salvation. 

I disagree. If there was only one spirit, the Holy Ghost, how easy it would be..... for those who seek and listen to the Holy Ghost. But, as JHLPROF pointed out, there are lying spirits also, and maybe sometimes, we may just deceive ourselves. I've been on both sides of this battle. II have been lied to spiritually and I have received the truth spiritually. I had to work to learn the difference.

Can the Holy Ghost tell one person that Jesus is the Christ, and that Joseph Smith is/was the prophet of the restoration while telling another person that Allah is the one and only God, that Jesus is not the Christ, and that Mohammed was the last prophet and not be lying to someone??? Anyone who will assert that both can be true has been to the Bill Clinton school that is trying to determine what the definition of 'is," is. 

Your last statement does not compute with me. It is only by knowing the truth can we obtain salvation.

Now, as to your decision, whether you stay with the church or leave the church. That is entirely on your head. It is your decision. You have been around long enough to pretty much know the doctrine of the LDS church, although we do seem to differ on some aspects.

If I did not believe that the Church is the Church of Jesus Christ, that it is His church, then I would have never come back. There are many people who remain in the church for cultural reasons. To me, that it better than chucking it out the window. There is a better chance, in my opinion, for a spiritual spark to be reignited at church than in the wild. I sincerely hope that you find your way.

Glenn

 

[Meadowchik]

11 hours ago, ksfisher said:

I'm not sure why the Spirit would lead anyone away from the church.  The Spirit is the Holy Ghost.  We believe that the Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead and that he works in conjunction with God the Father and his son Jesus Christ.  The Holy Ghost is also sent to testify of Jesus Christ as well as truth.  If the church is indeed the church of Jesus Christ, why would the Holy Ghost lead anyone away from it?  If the church is authorized by Jesus Christ to act in his name (the priesthood) and administer eternal covenants, why would the Holy Ghost lead anyone away from those covenants? 

With all due respect, the Spirit could lead a person away if the church isn't true.

For instance, I feel the spirit daily and I have mentally left the church.

That's not to say that I cannot contribute here and share some of my insights of church membership, my own educational background, and experience. 

[Meadowchik]

7 hours ago, RevTestament said:

I believe everyone wanting to discuss LDS interpretations of the scriptures, and all things LDS, should be welcome to do so here so long as they do it respectfully. I believe this board provides an important outlet for those needing to get things off their chest....

 

I agree.  If this is really not the mission and purpose of this board, I would hope that would be reflected by changes stating as much in the guidelines. I have reviewed them multiple times and take them seriously.

[Meadowchik]

10 hours ago, Freedom said:

Can you explain what you mean by this? The spirit is a feeling of love, peace, and forgiveness. When you feel the spirit, you have the desire to abandon all sin and to do good continually. Church is a place where you are to experience such a revelatory experience, particularly when you participate in the ordinance of the sacrament, and further by hearing the testimonies of others as they testify of Christ. What is the feeling you experience that is keeping you away from church?

I can echo stemelbow's sentiments. The Spirit I feel is one of love, and truth. In its influence, I am not afraid to love or to learn the truth. 

[stemelbow]

8 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Your conclusion is based on the false premise that people follow the Spirit.

The Spirit exists to follow.  If no person follows the Spirit then the Spirit's existence means nothing. 

[stemelbow]

6 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

I disagree. If there was only one spirit, the Holy Ghost, how easy it would be..... for those who seek and listen to the Holy Ghost. But, as JHLPROF pointed out, there are lying spirits also, and maybe sometimes, we may just deceive ourselves. I've been on both sides of this battle. II have been lied to spiritually and I have received the truth spiritually. I had to work to learn the difference.

As does everyone. YOur situation is not unique in that sense. 

6 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Can the Holy Ghost tell one person that Jesus is the Christ, and that Joseph Smith is/was the prophet of the restoration while telling another person that Allah is the one and only God, that Jesus is not the Christ, and that Mohammed was the last prophet and not be lying to someone??? Anyone who will assert that both can be true has been to the Bill Clinton school that is trying to determine what the definition of 'is," is. 

Or, as I suggested, God is less about getting truth to people and more about getting people to salvation.  Humans paths are all over th eplace.  Surely we can learn to see God in each person.  If we can't then it's us that simply can't see or hear our God. 

6 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Your last statement does not compute with me. It is only by knowing the truth can we obtain salvation.

WE'll all know the truth someday, but as it is none of us know the truth today.  WE simply can't see enough.  It may be that each of us have a different combination of true principles and ideas, but not one of us really understands enough to piece a seemless whole truth together.  At least that's how I see it. 

6 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Now, as to your decision, whether you stay with the church or leave the church. That is entirely on your head. It is your decision. You have been around long enough to pretty much know the doctrine of the LDS church, although we do seem to differ on some aspects.

If I did not believe that the Church is the Church of Jesus Christ, that it is His church, then I would have never come back. There are many people who remain in the church for cultural reasons. To me, that it better than chucking it out the window. There is a better chance, in my opinion, for a spiritual spark to be reignited at church than in the wild. I sincerely hope that you find your way.

Glenn

 

Thanks.

[stemelbow]

10 hours ago, BlueDreams said:

 

I am not you and I assume most people who've responded has responded in part from their own experience, expectations, and desires.  I'll probably do the same. The first thing that came to mind was a friend that got answers that never really were what God actually expected. For example she got the answer that she wouldn't have children, but now she's pregnant. She had several weird answers toward relationships that she knew wouldn't work. And she's not the only one I've seen that with. Often, though they were counter-intuitive, they did help them face something they weren't really facing, learn, and grow even if that growth was painful.  Mine have always been straight forward. What was expected was expected and that was that...but sometimes God would give me an odder answer to make me realize that even if I receive an answer it was my choice as to what I would do with it. That he would never take that choice away even if the directions were pretty clear. 

The second is tied in. It's your decision and maybe that's all that this answer means....that he wants you to make a choice and live up to it whatever it is. From what I see, there's things you don't like about the church, but there is obviously something that draws you to it or you wouldn't still be going....even when your wife would happily leave. It kinda reminds me about the scriptures about being lukewarm (revelations 3, if you're wanting to look it up). Sometimes, instead of fence-sitting it's just about making a choice and living by that decision instead of constantly wondering whether the grass really would have been greener on the other side. That way you can work with making the place you choose green and good wherever that be. And instead of just simply stating: do this or do that, I think sometimes God purposely reminds us that its your choice and it HAS to be your choice. Any other way and we can grow resentful about where we're planted and may not truly give our whole hearts into it. 

Lastly, I don't know what the "correct" interpretation to your spiritual promptings are. I'm not God. That's not my place. Obviously, my inclination is towards staying in the church. But I'm still not you and I've seen God do some crazy things and give some crazy directions. Including to myself...so who am I to tell you straight up to do this or that? 
 

Of course there is. I've valued many other people in other faith traditions and experiences for their spiritual life, depth, and wisdom. But it may be important to remember that if you're looking for another faith community it's not likely that you'll find the "perfect" one. All communities have things that we will likely enjoy and that irritate us because they have people in them. And that's people for you.

They sound like annoying busy body brats who need to mind their own business. Honestly, doing what they are is very clearly lined out as not okay. Gossiping about your neighbor isn't ok. 

No. That's not enough to decide whether someone is welcome here or not. There are people already here that fit that description.

 

In all things, good luck!

With luv,

BD

Thanks.  I think you offer good advice. 

[stemelbow]

11 hours ago, california boy said:

I hesitate to advise anyone what to do when it comes to drawing closer to God.  Clearly there are many that find the church the vehicle that helps them draw closer to God.  It works so well in their lives that they believe it is the only way back to God.  And for them, it very well may be the only way back to God.  Is it your path?  Honestly you will have to figure that out.  You aren't going to get any answers on this board.  

Absolutely.  With out a single bit of hesitation I can tell you that I am more at peace with God and feel closer to Him since I left the church.  It is hard to explain, perhaps like any testimony is hard to explain, but I know that I am  clearly better not only spiritually but in other ways as well since I left the church.  I felt it almost immediately.  Or maybe even before I left, just like you are feeling.  I continue to rely on those feelings that assure me that I am better off away from the church.  I have attended occasionally after leaving.  I get this dark feeling like I shouldn't be there.  And then as if those promptings are not enough, stuff just happens.  People say things that are clear warning signs that I should keep my distance from the church.  

Thanks for this.  I appreciate you sharing your experience.  It really helps. 

11 hours ago, california boy said:

Maybe more importantly, I can tell you how things have changed for me.  I feel like there is a lot of things built into the structure of the church that was preventing me from progressing towards God.  Some of it is built into the organization of the church.  Some of it is built into the dogma of the church.  And some of it is built into the policies of the church.  When I left the church, I felt like I had a blank canvas, and the only way to know what to do was to rely on the Spirit.  No one was there telling me what I should do.  It was just me and the Spirit.  I stripped away the things that I felt were keeping me from a better relationship with God and began to focus on those things that were bringing me closer to Him.  The gospel of Jesus Christ is beautifully simple, and simply beautiful.  Ever hear that statement?  When you start caring less about what men think of your relationship to God and more about what God thinks of your relationship with Him, then things start to change.  Yes, I have kept many of the values and teachings that I grew up with in the church.  But there was a lot that was just unimportant.  I could make a huge list of what I am talking about, but I think even members of the church know what I am talking about.  Something just doesn't ring true, no matter how many talks you hear on certain subjects.  It just feels wrong.

This is music to my ears.  I feel very close to what you are saying. 

11 hours ago, california boy said:

 

You have to not worry what others will label you.  You have to be willing to ignore a lot of ignorant comments.  You have to accept that others may very well be guided by God in a different way.  I have 5 kids.  The one thing I learned early on is that you can not guide all your children the exact same way.  Some flourish with lots of structure.  Others, it sucks the life out of them.  Some learn best by having difficult life lessons to overcome, sometimes of their own making.  Others seem to be the golden boy where nothing bad happens to them, yet they still are on a path that is good for them.  At least that is the way my kids are.  Do you think the children of God are any different?  

Agreed.  My wife is the one more concerned about what others say.  For some reason that just doesn't bother me much at all.  I only hear it from her and it really hurts her. 

[stemelbow]

13 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

There is no salvation without truth.
Multiple paths to salvation are a myth.

So?  We all live our own path.  It may be that we all have to figure out how to align, but none of us are on the same path.  And it'll be that we learn truth.  We'll be able to see someday.  Today, we simply can't.  We like to think we can, but we can't. 

13 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Of course God is outside the Church too, and working on people no matter what faith they profess.
But the path to God has only one gate.

 

k.  Thanks.

[RevTestament]

7 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

I agree.  If this is really not the mission and purpose of this board, I would hope that would be reflected by changes stating as much in the guidelines. I have reviewed them multiple times and take them seriously.

I am glad you seek to honorably use the board. Of course I am not the owner, and I don't set the rules, but I do believe that many members and ex's do use this board to in effect get things off their chest, and I am fine with that.  To some extent I do that too. I believe some degree of that is healthy for both actives and non-actives. I think actives need to know what ex's are really thinking, and I believe it is healthy for actives to be able to respond to them in a "safe" environment. Although that may not be an official purpose of the board, I believe it is a very healthy purpose. I personally enjoy talking to the occassional non-member visitor, and less(non) actives, and even ex's. I've spent 17 years learning all the issues people have with the Church, because I believe the restored gospel offers the best hope for humanity, and want to be able to best address their concerns. I really believe this board functions well in this department, and the owners should be proud of this accomplishment. It would be a much more boring board I think if only members tossed various LDS theories around. 

[Meadowchik]

9 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

I am glad you seek to honorably use the board. Of course I am not the owner, and I don't set the rules, but I do believe that many members and ex's do use this board to in effect get things off their chest, and I am fine with that.  To some extent I do that too. I believe some degree of that is healthy for both actives and non-actives. I think actives need to know what ex's are really thinking, and I believe it is healthy for actives to be able to respond to them in a "safe" environment. Although that may not be an official purpose of the board, I believe it is a very healthy purpose. I personally enjoy talking to the occassional non-member visitor, and less(non) actives, and even ex's. I've spent 17 years learning all the issues people have with the Church, because I believe the restored gospel offers the best hope for humanity, and want to be able to best address their concerns. I really believe this board functions well in this department, and the owners should be proud of this accomplishment. It would be a much more boring board I think if only members tossed various LDS theories around. 

There's a theory of argument I've read before, can't remember the source at the moment, but it basically affirms that individuals will get closer to truth and enlightenment when they argue with each other as long as it is in good faith.

I believe that.

I'm glad that you seem to share similar beliefs.