12 Reasons Millenials are Over Church

[Maestrophil]

2 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So define an unnecessary cultural expectation that the Church has and let's see if it's part of the gospel or not.

This is what I would like to hear as well...  

[Ouagadougou]

3 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So define an unnecessary cultural expectation that the Church has.

Maybe had in this case...still disheartening to many...even 40 years later.  

[Maestrophil]

1 minute ago, Ouagadougou said:

Maybe had in this case...still disheartening to many...even 40 years later.  

Yep, that is culture at work, and disavowed by the church now.  

[rongo]

35 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

But I don't think there is anything to celebrate regarding LDS church activation levels for Millenials. Pretending like the church isn't suffering from the same phenomena as the rest of the churches is putting ones head in the sand.

I think this whole topic/issue is a good thing, over all. 1) It drives needed and necessary change, where applicable, 2) Separation of the wheat from the chaff,

and 3) There is a prophesied decline of the Gentile Church (i.e., the Church primarily peopled by and administered by Book of Mormon-defined Gentiles; i.e., Israelites of northern European descent). I think we're in the beginning stages of this, now, and there are many sociological reasons for the decline in vitality, competency, etc. of active Mormons vis a vis past generations. The Church will never fall away, but I think it will decline in influence and vitality, with active membership requiring more and more sacrifice. And this will entail more and more of a clamor to appeal to people whom it doesn't appeal to.

As you look at the ebb and flow, the up and down cycles in the Book of Mormon, we can see (with the benefit of hindsight --- it's always much harder for people to see it when they're living it) many parent-child-family dynamics reasons for what happens in the pride cycle. Similarly, one can look at the Great Depression, World War 2, Baby Boomers, the social revolutions of the 1960s, etc. and it doesn't seem surprising that society has taken some of the trajectories it has, with each successive generation giving rise to following ones with their particular traits and trends. 

I think these societal/generational trends have been foreseen, and are recorded in scripture. I, personally, expect there to be a backlash and a rebound from the hedonism, narcissism, illiteracy, incompetency, and lack of critical thinking (coupled with emotionalism and movement rage) that has attended the current youth/younger generation. A youth Renaissance, if you will.  

[Ouagadougou]

2 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Yep, that is culture at work, and disavowed by the church now.  

And has the church fully disavowed calling various groups of people "Lamanite descendants" when, in fact, they are not?  This cultural expectation in the church is robbing many groups of people of their true heritage.  

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, Ouagadougou said:

And has the church fully disavowed calling various groups of people "Lamanite descendants" when, in fact, they are not?  This cultural expectation in the church is robbing many groups of people of their true heritage.  

I don't think any of this can be called " an unnecessary cultural expectation".
You're reaching.

 

[Tacenda]

8 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Yep, that is culture at work, and disavowed by the church now.  

Do you see how this can be a problem? The church needs to be correct the first time, if they truly speak and get special communication with God/Jesus. That's why I believe WE must get our own communications.

[Gray]

33 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

It is such an obvious thing when you see Temples, Malls, and lands being bought as well as not being upfront where the monies really go.  I believe this generation really wants to help..and feel hindered somehow.  I don't know...maybe those changes in the missionary programs will help.  I do not envy a seminary teacher.  The kids know the deal and they are asking questions..some are being discussed..like the gays and they are not happy campers.

This is a real concern. I think tithing does interfere with the sincere desire to help out the less fortunate - especially when you're starting out in life and have little to no disposable income. 

[rongo]

2 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

And has the church fully disavowed calling various groups of people "Lamanite descendants" when, in fact, they are not?  

1) I don't think the Church has "fully disavowed" that. Instead, it has simply stopped referencing it. That is much more of a passive than an active disavowal, isn't it?

         1a) CFR that they are, in fact, not (not a real CFR; I know that you can't prove a negative). I don't think it has been firmly established, beyond any argument, 

that, say, American Indians or native peoples in Central and South America, are not Lamanite descendants. 

This cultural expectation in the church is robbing many groups of people of their true heritage.

How? Can you give some concrete examples of how teaching and believing that one is a Lamanite descendant "robs one of his true heritage" --- even if, for the sake of argument, they aren't? Can't one partake in that case of one's "true heritage," even if they have a mistaken belief about descent 1600 years ago?

[ksfisher]

12 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

This cultural expectation in the church is robbing many groups of people of their true heritage.  

...as children of God?

(because that seems to be the only heritage that has any permanent value)

Edited February 23, 2017 by ksfisher

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

...as children of God?

Be careful not to generalize too much. Pretty sure Canadians are devilspawn. I also suspect that the Japanese are descended from Cthulhu.

[ksfisher]

1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

Be careful not to generalize too much. Pretty sure Canadians are devilspawn. I also suspect that the Japanese are descended from Cthulhu.

I'm pretty sure Canadians aren't devil spawn.  My son has some sort of machine in one of his Minecraft worlds that creates them.

[HappyJackWagon]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

The attitudes may be bad, but what exactly can be done to make these people feel welcome.
Seriously, whatever happened to people changing when they accept the gospel.  Now the gospel has to change to get people to accept it?

I don't think that's what is being said...at all. It seems to me that the change Millenials (according to the article) are seeking are methodological changes, not doctrinal. It's about how the gospel is being presented and how the millenials are being included in the process. It's changing some aspects of the box, not necessarily the pearl inside the box.

[mapman]

8 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

So define an unnecessary cultural expectation that the Church has and let's see if it's part of the gospel or not.

Luckily for us the Gospel is defined pretty clearly in the Book of Mormon, as well as many other places. The restored fullness of the Gospel is to have faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism by immersion by one having the authority of God, receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost, and enduring to the end. "And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation." (3 Nephi 11:40). The essential core of Mormonism is the gospel, these simple first principles. Everything else we teach and do should be built on this foundation. We have lots of doctrines that aren't technically the Gospel, the vast majority of which I am sure are inspired, but we have seen over the years there are teachings that we have changed as we have received further light from God, and I fully expect that process to continue, but I don't think the gospel will ever change.

Some unnecessary cultural expectations in no particular order (just my opinion): R-rated movies are bad, things with clothing and grooming like multiple earrings, if you disagree or are conflicted about something a general authority teaches you keep it to yourself, you should believe the world is going to hell in a hand basket due to the wicked world, etc. I don't think that the way that we teach about sexuality is always healthy, nor our methods for dealing with people who end up with compulsive behavior. There is a person who is very important to me in my life that is part of the LGTB community who left the church because he doesn't feel like there is any way for him to find happiness while in the church, and I have a hard time disagreeing with that. I'm all for the law of chastity, but from my point of view it is painfully obvious that our understanding of this law was articulated only with heterosexuals in mind. I don't even care so much if any teachings change, I just want to feel like I have the space to be a committed member of Christ's church. I love the Gospel, but I sometimes wonder if the church really wants me here.

And to respond to Maestrophil: I admit my impressions of the politics of the church could be skewed. It is entirely possible that I have simply just been living in Utah for too long. My ward in Ann Arbor definitely had a more diverse set of members. The fact remains that Mormons are more republican than pretty much any other religion in the US, and we are getting talked to over and over and over again about "religious freedom," which in the church apparently doesn't mean what the words imply, but mean enforcing "Christian" (read Evangelical) social norms on the nation, just like how the republican party uses it.

I have to go to work, so I won't be responding to anything else until tonight.

[Maestrophil]

45 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

And has the church fully disavowed calling various groups of people "Lamanite descendants" when, in fact, they are not?  This cultural expectation in the church is robbing many groups of people of their true heritage.  

I have seen a marked decline of this in my lifetime, yes.

[Maestrophil]

40 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Do you see how this can be a problem? The church needs to be correct the first time, if they truly speak and get special communication with God/Jesus. That's why I believe WE must get our own communications.

Who ever said the church or the prophets need to be correct "the first time"  that has never been the case of biblical or BOM prophets or church, why should now be any different?

[Maestrophil]

25 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I don't think that's what is being said...at all. It seems to me that the change Millenials (according to the article) are seeking are methodological changes, not doctrinal. It's about how the gospel is being presented and how the millenials are being included in the process. It's changing some aspects of the box, not necessarily the pearl inside the box.

What would those changes look like then?  I am seriously curious to know.  

[hope_for_things]

2 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Democrats rate Mormons lower than everyone else.  Republicans rate Mulsims below them all. 

Anyway, thought I'd point out the discrepancy via political ties. 

Wow, this is shockingly low on the Democratic side of things.  I guess all the money spent on PR in recent years hasn't moved this needle.  These results are really poor.  I wish they had historical trends on these numbers using a similar survey.  I wonder when the high point for viewing Mormons favorably was?  I would guess the 1950s post WWII era, but its just a guess.  

[bsjkki]

It's not just the millennials, it is also their parents. Those millennials who are sent home from their mission, have parents that feel like failures. The lgbtq Mormon parents have no idea how their child is going to fit into Mormonism. Alone forever and lonely or live a more fulfilling earthly life outside the faith. All those porn addicts have parents who wonder what they did wrong. These families prayed, read scriptures and went to church and their kids are a mess. Our current culture is a toxic mixture and we are trying to train our kids to swim against the current and when they fail, we beat them up and publicly shame them. (That's how it feels to them--I don't want to argue whether this is truly the case.) Not taking the sacrament, sending them home from missions, kicking them out of school is a loud message of failure sent to parents and kids alike. Bishop roulette is a real thing and some Bishops have no skill at helping this generation overcome their sins without using shame and guilt. Spiritual experiences are a must to retain faithful, strong kids and those experiences need to happen not just at home but at school, in their Bishops offices and on their missions. Repentance needs more emphasis instead of perfection in keeping the commandments.

These kids are going to mess up and need to know its not the end of the world. Many young women I know, have left the church because they were assaulted and still felt guilty (I should have just fought more, if I only didn't...) and church only made them feel more worthless instead of providing hope in Christ. If we can make the kids feel the love the Savior has for them, that will help them stay. Less controlling, teach the commandments and show more love. For the youth without friends in their ward--Sundays and youth nights are just social torture and many times their leaders just poo poo this concern because there is no answer except toughen up. Sometimes, their fledgling testimonies are not strong enough to endure the social bullying. Sometimes, with the gospel, less structure and expectations might actually improve outcomes.

I hope the church is not going to try and micromanage these kids more. They need less. Growing up in the eighties, I did not feel micromanaged. The modesty standards were taught but not as emphasized. Back in the day, BYU's honor code was an actual honor code and the dress standards were suggestions. I don't think being more controlling is in anyway the solution to this problem. 

I had high hopes for the Come Follow Me program but now I've heard teachers and youth complain about teaching the same 12 topics each year. The kids get 8 lessons on the same topic each month. It's boring.

Edited February 24, 2017 by bsjkki

[JLHPROF]

39 minutes ago, mapman said:

Some unnecessary cultural expectations in no particular order (just my opinion):

R-rated movies are bad

• 1 Thessalonians 5:22 - Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Things with clothing and grooming like multiple earrings

• Leviticus 19:28 - Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I [am] the LORD.

If you disagree or are conflicted about something a general authority teaches you keep it to yourself

• Ok, I'll give you that one.  It may not be church teaching, but there are many members who have that as part of their personal culture.

You should believe the world is going to hell in a hand basket due to the wicked world, etc.

• D&C 84: 49 And the whole world lieth in sin, and groaneth under darkness and under the bondage of sin.

I don't think that the way that we teach about sexuality is always healthy

• Not sure what "healthy" has to do with it.   But that would fall under methodology, not cultural expectation.  Chastity doctrines are clear (mostly).

There is a person who is very important to me in my life that is part of the LGTB community who left the church because he doesn't feel like there is any way for him to find happiness while in the church, and I have a hard time disagreeing with that. I'm all for the law of chastity, but from my point of view it is painfully obvious that our understanding of this law was articulated only with heterosexuals in mind.

• Are you suggesting that our law of chastity is cultural and not doctrinal?

[notHagoth7]

14 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

...This phenomena with Millenials is in no way limited to our church...

It seems to me that without significant adaptation, churches in general, and the LDS church in particular, will lose the majority of a generation which will be difficult to regain. I'm curious what kind of adaptation you feel would be useful....

Most any organization, like any product, experiences an arc/mutation from innovation to stagnation.

I read an insightful book years ago from another denomination about their acknowledgement of how they were losing many of the rising generation.

And had a lengthy discussion with a pastor of another faith about a very similar topic, and was invited to attend one of their youth group activities, and had the privilege to visit with some of those youth. Very impressed by that faith. Their future looks bright.

Then had a discussion with pastors about a recent troubling tripling of the suicide rate among youth, including what to do to address that growing epidemic.

Elsewhere, one professor talked with me years ago about LDS matters of governance, and said that executives and bankers and lawyers tend to fill the ranks of leadership. And he explained, in part, why a very specific temperament type is the type entrusted to maintain the status quo in the LDS faith.

Unfortunately, that theoretically-over-represented temperament type just happens to be a type teenagers generally have more of a challenge relating to.

Millennials even more so.

Or so the theory goes.

I am working with others on a broader safety-net solution. And I just might return and report.

Thoughts?

Edited February 24, 2017 by notHagoth7

[sheilauk]

It's not a milennial issue.  All through my life (I'm now 53) the vast majority of the people I know,  of all ages have not gone to church and thought it irrelevant to them.  I was the only one of my school friends who went, same at college and at most of the places I've worked.   maybe it's a newish phenomenon in the USA but I don't think it is in the uk.  I don't know how any church can adapt sufficiently nor why it should. Church isn't a place of entertainment. 

[Bobbieaware]

9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I don't understand, what do you mean read verse two again? I'm referring to the list by HJW in the opening post.

Your use of the word 'they' was ambiguous. Sorry, I missed your point. 

Focusing on your point, I'm wondering how many of the millennials who leave the Church continue to live lives of genuine belief in God? And of the number of those who continue to believe after departing, I wonder how many of them express their abiding faith by becoming enthusiastic members of other Churches? My guess is what's happening in today's Church is much like what occurred when the unbelieving younger generation of Nephites (spoken of in Mosiah 26) left the Church as openly-professed unbelievers. Similarly, I think it's unlikely most of today's exiting millennials are much concerned with maintaining a dynamic and growing relationship with God. But I could be wrong. At very least I hope I'm wrong. At any rate, the test of faith is designed by an infinite wisdom to be an exceedingly difficult and intensely private struggle to overcome the many naturally-occurring barriers that stand as formidable obstacles to obtaining authentic revelatory communication with God. Some may come to the aid of those being so tested, but in the end each must obtain, and keep, his or her own unshakable testimony of divine truth.

The Lord gives the supreme gift of the fulness of celestial glory only to those who successfully open -- and steadfastly keep open --  the floodgates of clarifying and empowering revelatory communication with heaven. The Lord expects those who will be blessed with the fulness of his glory to first heroically triumph in the test of faith by voluntarily (while in the pre-mortal world) allowing themselves to be fully-immersed in a fallen, highly imperfect world. A world filled with enough spiritual deceptions to be able to thoroughly convince the mind of the natural man that there is no true Church; and, even worse, to be persuaded that there is no good reason to believe there is a just, merciful and loving God enthroned on high. 

So it's unlikely the Lord is going to make the test of faith any easier, as that would rob the test of its purpose to fully try those who will ultimately be judged worthy to become joint heirs with Christ in all he possesses. Christ victoriously passed through the greatest of all trials of faith, and we are not exempt from being required to successfully pass through similar trials of faith. There is no other way...

Edited February 24, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Duncan]

51 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Be careful not to generalize too much. Pretty sure Canadians are devilspawn. I also suspect that the Japanese are descended from Cthulhu.

oh yeah, i'll get you at recess

[Teancum]

8 hours ago, Bobbieaware said:

So history is repeating itself...

 1 Now it came to pass that there were many of the rising generation that could not understand the words of king Benjamin, being little children at the time he spake unto his people; and they did not believe the tradition of their fathers.

 2 They did not believe what had been said concerning the resurrection of the dead, neither did they believe concerning the coming of Christ.

 3 And now because of their unbelief they could not understand the word of God; and their hearts were hardened.

 4 And they would not be baptized; neither would they join the church. And they were a separate people as to their faith, and remained so ever after, even in their carnal and sinful state; for they would not call upon the Lord their God.

 5 And now in the reign of Mosiah they were not half so numerous as the people of God; but because of the dissensions among the brethren they became more numerous. (Alma 26)

And yet the Nephite branch of the kingdom of God on earth moved forward for about another 450 years, including the glorious Nephite "golden age" recorded in 4th Nephi. 

 

 

 

 

 

How typical of the overly pious person that thinks they have God's one true religion.  What pablum.