12 Reasons Millenials are Over Church

[Calm]

It did not own it when leadership came out with the current guidelines, however.  Land was purchased for Deseret Ranch in 1950, current WoW standards for the temple issued in 1902 and made strict adherence in 1921.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Calm

[3DOP]

On 2/24/2017 at 2:02 PM, Calm said:

It would be extremely hard for me to lie.  I would be replaying it over and over in my head.  I am not saying I have never lied or deceived (saying the exact truth knowing someone would misunderstand), but it makes me ill when I think about doing it.  The only lies I allow myself and even those I debate are the "I am fine" when I am not variety (I justify it by believing they don't want to hear the details and generally I am fine) and the reverse...allowing myself to blow up the need for preventative action for physical problems in my head to make an excuse not to go somewhere (there is always a significant cost for driving for some reason, I just push the payment higher in my mind though these days it is more just not saying I don't want to pay the cost though I could).  Avoiding deception was not an attribute I knowingly strived for.  Just grew up this way.

I understand that others don't feel the same way, but 'easy' is not a word I associate with dishonesty so I didn't realize that is what you meant.

hey cal...sometimes we should answer folk according to what they want hear, and not necessarily what their words mean. 

I have sometimes hurt myself with a scrupolosity about truth telling that made me think I should tell people how I feel when they ask , "How are you?" They don't want to hear problems. They are saying hello. No need to share health problems or money worries.

 I think I hurt myself by a strict interpretation of word meanings when I made job applications in the early 90's. The application always asked why I left my last job. I now realize that it wasn't necessary to explain the theological difficulties that had arisen in my pastorate to people who were wondering how I might work out driving a garbage truck. Full disclosure clears the conscience, but it is not always necessary. I would even say that full disclosure is sometimes unwise.

It is never okay to bear false witness. I will tell the truth though it harms me (a lie is far more harmful to me). But I have begun to think that I need not on every occasion tell the whole truth. 

Rory

 

 

Edited February 27, 2017 by 3DOP

[Calm]

3 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

hey cal...sometimes we should answer folk according to what they want hear, and not necessarily what their words mean. 

I have sometimes hurt myself with a scrupolosity about truth telling that made me think I should tell people how I feel when they ask , "How are you?" They don't want to hear problems. They are saying hello. No need to share health problems or money worries.

 I think I hurt myself by a strict interpretation of word meanings when I made job applications in the early 90's. The application always asked why I left my last job. I now realize that it wasn't necessary to explain the theological difficulties that had arisen in my pastorate to people who were wondering how I might work out driving a garbage truck. Full disclosure clears the conscience, but it is not always necessary. I would even say that full disclosure is sometimes unwise.

It is never okay to bear false witness. I will tell the truth though it harms me (a lie is far more harmful to me). But I have begun to think that I need not on every occasion tell the whole truth. 

Rory

Yeah, I realized that long ago as a teen talking to my grandparents.  Since she couldn't do anything about my problems at the time and she was a problem solver, it hurt her unnecessarily as it didn't make me feel better sharing with her.  But my natural inclination to be completely open and just say what I think still made me replay the conversation over and over, asking myself if it was the right choice since it felt so wrong even though I spoke truth, just not the truth I would want to hear if I asked the question.

I also keep my mouth shut these days when Mom talks about certain decisions that she and Dad made that significantly damaged us kids, even though it makes me angry when she is excusing herself by telling us yet again she thought we would have fun rather than be neglected and emotionally abused by her mother's cluelessness because Mom's response at the time was not to comfort us even if we were stuck in the situation, but to avoid us and instead let Dad deal with it and she acts like it was her trauma rather than ours, that her saying she felt so bad that she couldn't come visit us or talk to us because we would beg to come home shows how much she loved us...obviously you can tell it is a hot button issue for me, but I stopped talking about it because I know she couldn't recognize what the problem is at heart and it would only therefore result in her feeling pain and confusion.  Dad had some similar issues, he would ask what he was doing wrong so that he could change, but he couldn't actually change because he never could understand the problem was his worldview that if he thought something was right, it was right for everyone and if we pointed out how his self centeredness was damaging others, he would just retreat and sulk, which didn't help anyone.

So I have learned it is necessary to not overshare (doesn't stop me from doing it here, lol, but I figure it is easy enough to ignore me, I don't expect others to 'listen' here and be affected by what I say as I would with family though I still keep my mouth shut if I think the result will be negative change, more defensiveness rather than self analysis in most cases).  Otoh, I still think it is very important to examine when we make the choice to hold back.  If it is used for personal convenience, it can too easily slip into making excuses rather than keeping a conversation within reasonable limits of time and exposure.

Full disclosure often obscures truth because people can't see what they need to, it just seems so counterintuitive to me to approach life that way because what I aim for is a global understanding in relationships.  I see that as more efficient in the long run, though I realize others feel knowing as little as needed to get the job done is better (I see getting the job done right and for the right reasons being of highest importance) because life is cluttered enough.

[Jeanne]

57 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Well maybe that's because our church owns one of the largest cattle ranches in the US, maybe even the world. http://www.livestockweekly.com/papers/01/01/25/whldeseret.asp

I forgot about that...kind of like owning a bar

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I forgot about that...kind of like owning a bar

I disagree.  More like owning a clothing store that sells sleeveless tops that could be used for a lot of occasions, including sports.

There are never times where it is appropriate in the WoW to drink alcohol, iirc.  Otoh, it does specify times where it is appropriate to eat meat.

The lack of a temple recommend WoW standard on meat can hardly be laid on a cattle ranch that didn't exist until 30 years after the current standard existed.  At best, the cattle ranch might be evidence that the Church leadership is unconcerned about meat consumption or even wants to promote it, but one can produce something without wanting it to be misused.

Edited February 27, 2017 by Calm

[Rain]

On Friday, February 24, 2017 at 8:59 AM, notHagoth7 said:

I respectfully disagree that they may not be as teachable. Just not by our dry, outdated methods. (Ezekiel 37 comes to mind.)

I agree that you've hit the nail on the head why teaching them is a greater challenge. They *are* smarter. And bore/glaze over rapidly.

If we don't pivot and adapt, we lose them. Simple as that.

(Hypocrite warning: my estranged children struggle with faith...and are not even sure I'm the kinda guy they want to like/respect, or ever listen to.)

Being bored does not mean being smart. You can have 2 intelligent people doing the same things and one of them is engaged and the other bored. While I think that we should always be looking to teach better, we shouldn't automatically assume that we need to teach better just because the student is bored.

On Saturday, February 25, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Tacenda said:

I'd always say yes to following the WoW but would explain that I drink diet coke or diet dr. pepper, and kind of back-track, couldn't just say a blanket 'yes', but come to think about it, I should have felt bad about eating more meat than is allowed too.

Twenty-six years ago as missionaries we committed investigators to live the word of wisdom as it was outlined on our flip chart. It only mentioned the big 5. I have always understood the temple recommend question as the same as what we had our investigators commit to.  So I didn't have a problem saying "yes" to it.

I have since received personal revelation on another specific part that Heavenly Father wanted ME to commit to. I did commit to it, so now when I say "yes" it includes both the big 5 and the other thing. Should I fall back on that commitment I would have to say "no".

So no I don't think most people "lie" about this if they eat meat. 

[Benjamin Seeker]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

There are never times where it is appropriate in the WoW to drink alcohol, iirc.  Otoh, it does specify times where it is appropriate to eat meat.

I think it's worth mentioning that the Word of Wisdom almost certainly allowed alchoholic beverages. "Mild drinks" made from barley (verse 17) in all likelihood references beer. Fairmormon even owns that: http://en.fairmormon.org/Word_of_Wisdom/History_and_implementation (See the section on strong drinks.)

[Tacenda]

59 minutes ago, Rain said:

Being bored does not mean being smart. You can have 2 intelligent people doing the same things and one of them is engaged and the other bored. While I think that we should always be looking to teach better, we shouldn't automatically assume that we need to teach better just because the student is bored.

Twenty-six years ago as missionaries we committed investigators to live the word of wisdom as it was outlined on our flip chart. It only mentioned the big 5. I have always understood the temple recommend question as the same as what we had our investigators commit to.  So I didn't have a problem saying "yes" to it.

I have since received personal revelation on another specific part that Heavenly Father wanted ME to commit to. I did commit to it, so now when I say "yes" it includes both the big 5 and the other thing. Should I fall back on that commitment I would have to say "no".

So no I don't think most people "lie" about this if they eat meat. 

I didn't say people do the bold above. I've been seriously seeing lately that meat isn't good for the body in great amounts, it should be in the top five, whatever they are.

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, Benjamin Seeker said:

I think it's worth mentioning that the Word of Wisdom almost certainly allowed alchoholic beverages. "Mild drinks" made from barley (verse 17) in all likelihood references beer. Fairmormon even owns that: http://en.fairmormon.org/Word_of_Wisdom/History_and_implementation (See the section on strong drinks.)

I had forgotten that.  You are quite right.  Good thing I put "iirc".

[Rain]

34 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I didn't say people do the bold above. I've been seriously seeing lately that meat isn't good for the body in great amounts, it should be in the top five, whatever they are.

No, you didn't.  I was worried about that as I wrote that. Sorry. I meant it to tie back to where this part of the conversation got started. For most of my post I just meant for you to understand that I didn't feel there was anything for you to feel bad about in this case. 

[notHagoth7]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

Being bored does not mean being smart.

Agreed. High school largely bored me because I was relearning things I already knew.

Being forced to rehash such things makes anybody's eyes roll/glaze. And a surprising number of high school people I've spoken with feel the same.

Many schools don't challenge minds any more. At a career college, the students there thanked me for actually teaching them things they could apply, and said outright that other teachers spent too much time chewing the fat instead of doing their job and helping the kids learn/grow. And some teach to the curriculum (or worse yet, to the test) instead of to the needs of the student.

 

[Glenn101]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Well maybe that's because our church owns one of the largest cattle ranches in the US, maybe even the world. http://www.livestockweekly.com/papers/01/01/25/whldeseret.asp

They didn't own that ranch during the years that Brigham Young et al was trying to get people to more closely live the word of wisdom. I am not going to get into a nuanced debate upon just how we are supposed to be obeying the Word of Wisdom as delineated in section 89. As it was given first not by commandment but later certain things were emphasized and became to be seen as lines drawn in the sand, so to speak, while others are still left to be between the individual and the Lord.

However, glad to see that you are still referring to the Church as "our church." 

Glenn

 

[Jeanne]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I disagree.  More like owning a clothing store that sells sleeveless tops that could be used for a lot of occasions, including sports.

There are never times where it is appropriate in the WoW to drink alcohol, iirc.  Otoh, it does specify times where it is appropriate to eat meat.

The lack of a temple recommend WoW standard on meat can hardly be laid on a cattle ranch that didn't exist until 30 years after the current standard existed.  At best, the cattle ranch might be evidence that the Church leadership is unconcerned about meat consumption or even wants to promote it, but one can produce something without wanting it to be misused.

Okay.  But notice the smiley.  I wasn't serious.  But thanks for the info!!

[Gray]

14 hours ago, Calm said:

I disagree.  More like owning a clothing store that sells sleeveless tops that could be used for a lot of occasions, including sports.

There are never times where it is appropriate in the WoW to drink alcohol, iirc.  Otoh, it does specify times where it is appropriate to eat meat.

The lack of a temple recommend WoW standard on meat can hardly be laid on a cattle ranch that didn't exist until 30 years after the current standard existed.  At best, the cattle ranch might be evidence that the Church leadership is unconcerned about meat consumption or even wants to promote it, but one can produce something without wanting it to be misused.

The actual written Word of Wisdom seems to approve the consumption of beer and wine, just not "strong drinks" (probably distilled alcohol, like whiskey). The "unwritten" Word of Wisdom, which is not the same thing as the canonical version, flatly prohibits any alcohol. 

 

Edit: sorry, I see someone already mentioned it 

Edited February 27, 2017 by Gray

[Maestrophil]

3 hours ago, Gray said:

The actual written Word of Wisdom seems to approve the consumption of beer and wine, just not "strong drinks" (probably distilled alcohol, like whiskey). The "unwritten" Word of Wisdom, which is not the same thing as the canonical version, flatly prohibits any alcohol. 

 

Edit: sorry, I see someone already mentioned it 

I guess the hard part for people who struggle to want to follow the brethren completely (I don't say that as an insult) is to realize that the official position of the church, which I attempt to follow, is that the WOW means whatever the current prophet says it means.  As was said above, the items on the missionary flip charts are the items I strictly obey, and I view the rest as council until instructed otherwise.  If the prophet came out and said no meat in summer was part of obtaining a TR, then guess what?  No more meat for me.  No problem.  

Edited February 27, 2017 by Maestrophil

[JLHPROF]

13 hours ago, Rain said:

Twenty-six years ago as missionaries we committed investigators to live the word of wisdom as it was outlined on our flip chart.

It says a lot that we are more concerned with what is on our flip chart than what the scripture actually says.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

It says a lot that we are more concerned with what is on our flip chart than what the scripture actually says.

It does IF we are more concerned about it.  Just because we use those standards for entrance to the temple doesn't mean that we are more concerned about it, though I do admit that some are. It just means that we use the standards in different ways.