12 Reasons Millenials are Over Church

[JLHPROF]

13 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

To tell a bishop that you don't drink coffee...you want to go to the wedding! Granted it is not the right or honest thing to do..but I am sure it happens because..it is so easy.

The recommend question asks 
 10. Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

I think more people say yes meaning "I keep my interpretation of the Word of Wisdom" than actually lie.
Honestly, I don't know anyone in the Church or out who actually keeps the Word of Wisdom.
 

[HappyJackWagon]

47 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The recommend question asks 
 10. Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

I think more people say yes meaning "I keep my interpretation of the Word of Wisdom" than actually lie.
Honestly, I don't know anyone in the Church or out who actually keeps the Word of Wisdom.
 

Like you say, there is great possibility for interpretation. Aside from the variability of understanding and which parts of the WoW are actually the focus of the recommend question, the issue of timing is always interesting to think about. The timing issue could apply to any worthiness question being asked.

Do you keep ...?

Keep it 100% of the time, 24/7-365 every year? Is that the only legitimate way to interpret regarding timing? Or could a person drink coffee in December but then report in a recommend interview in February that they keep it because they haven't had coffee for 2 months? 3 months? 1 week? There's really no direction about timing and it is left totally to the individual to self-disclose and then up to the bishop to accept or reject their answer.

Is perfection in keeping a certain law for a certain period of time part of the requirement?

Edited February 24, 2017 by HappyJackWagon

[JLHPROF]

7 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Keep it 100% of the time, 24/7-365 every year? Is that the only legitimate way to interpret regarding timing? Or could a person drink coffee in December but then report in a recommend interview in February that they keep it because they haven't had coffee for 2 months? 3 months? 1 week? There's really no direction about timing and it is left totally to the individual to self-disclose and then up to the bishop to accept or reject their answer.

Is perfection in keeping a certain law for a certain period of time part of the requirement?

Well the time frame on keeping any law and answering that honestly is always in reference how long since you repented of breaking it.

So if you drank coffee in December, spent January repenting and committed not to drink it again (part of repentance) then yes, you could answer honestly in February that you keep the Word of Wisdom.

[Glenn101]

6 hours ago, notHagoth7 said:

In psychology, that supposedly is exactly what happens when someone's wants repeatedly get denied/ignored.  (I'm not a psychologist, but did supposedly sleep at a Holiday Inn Express once.)

Had a relative who, while a toddler, never knew where her next food was gonna come from. So years later, after being adopted by a sibling, when food was no longer a scarcity, she still hoarded and stashed it...as a security cushion. That's reportedly/sadly common for kids with a background like that. There was a time in my life when for similar reasons, what would otherwise have been a normal want escalated into being a need...for quite some time. 

Is that possibly what's happened here?

If so (and they would be better suited to answer the question than you or I would be), a profound apology might be in order...for starters. On further thought, methinks I might owe someone such a thing too.

I'll likely get back to take a swing at some of the rest of your q later.  (As in, "a swing and a miss!") ;0)

Last time I checked, food was one of life's needs. 

I hope that you are not seriously saying that millenials have been repeatedly ignored and their wants denied. This seems to have become a millenial appeasement culture and era.

Glenn

[Gray]

59 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The recommend question asks 
 10. Do you keep the Word of Wisdom?

I think more people say yes meaning "I keep my interpretation of the Word of Wisdom" than actually lie.
Honestly, I don't know anyone in the Church or out who actually keeps the Word of Wisdom.
 

I was going to say maybe vegans, but I'm sure most of them drink green tea. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

To tell a bishop that you don't drink coffee...you want to go to the wedding! Granted it is not the right or honest thing to do..but I am sure it happens because..it is so easy.

It would be extremely hard for me to lie.  I would be replaying it over and over in my head.  I am not saying I have never lied or deceived (saying the exact truth knowing someone would misunderstand), but it makes me ill when I think about doing it.  The only lies I allow myself and even those I debate are the "I am fine" when I am not variety (I justify it by believing they don't want to hear the details and generally I am fine) and the reverse...allowing myself to blow up the need for preventative action for physical problems in my head to make an excuse not to go somewhere (there is always a significant cost for driving for some reason, I just push the payment higher in my mind though these days it is more just not saying I don't want to pay the cost though I could).  Avoiding deception was not an attribute I knowingly strived for.  Just grew up this way.

I understand that others don't feel the same way, but 'easy' is not a word I associate with dishonesty so I didn't realize that is what you meant.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Calm

[Kevin Christensen]

2 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

This contradicts the church's own depiction of Lamanites in the late 1970's.  

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/english/pdf/language-materials/35666_eng.pdf

"the church" is a bunch of individuals, a few of whom get the job of writing manuals.  And as I noted and you didn't, the formal declaration of "the authority of my servants" is

"these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

 25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

 26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

 27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

 28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time."

All of this means, I know that it contradicts what many thought.  But sort of thing is to be expected over time if we do what we are supposed to do.  We're supposed to study, read carefully, contextualize, seek out of the best books words of wisdom, and so forth, to learn better, quite frankly, to repent.

And you still did not comment on Alma 3:5 and the difference it should have made to our reading of Alma 3:6 from the first.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

[Ouagadougou]

5 minutes ago, Kevin Christensen said:

"the church" is a bunch of individuals, a few of whom get the job of writing manuals.  And as I noted and you didn't, the formal declaration of "the authority of my servants" is

"these commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding.

 25 And inasmuch as they erred it might be made known;

 26 And inasmuch as they sought wisdom they might be instructed;

 27 And inasmuch as they sinned they might be chastened, that they might repent;

 28 And inasmuch as they were humble they might be made strong, and blessed from on high, and receive knowledge from time to time."

All of this means, I know that it contradicts what many thought.  But sort of thing is to be expected over time if we do what we are supposed to do.  We're supposed to study, read carefully, contextualize, seek out of the best books words of wisdom, and so forth, to learn better, quite frankly, to repent.

And you still did not comment on Alma 3:5 and the difference it should have made to our reading of Alma 3:6 from the first.

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

The church, for many years, taught that certain groups of people were cursed (because of the color of their skin), to include the Lamanites.  

 "5 Now the heads of the Lamanites were shorn; and they were naked, save it were skin which was girded about their loins, and also their armor, which was girded about them, and their bows, and their arrows, and their stones, and their slings, and so forth.

 6 And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men."

I don't think it changes verse 6, because 2 Nephi talks about a "skin of blackness to come upon them."

And then 2 Nephi 15 says:

"And their curse was taken from them, and their skin became white like unto the Nephites;"

IMO, this is talking about a curse of skin color.  

 

 

 

[sheilauk]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Ha ha, real funny, but not laughing...because you think it should be enough. But I do understand where you and JL are coming from. But is it going to shock you both if it really wasn't enough and a personal relationship with Him was what was needed, though knowing JL he has that. And do we worship rules or IOW, do we worship the temple and ordinances more?

I would say that praying is the way to develop a personal relationship with Jesus, in private one to one conversation with a friend who is also a Saviour. Church is for communion with fellow saints. If private prayer doesn't develop a personal relationship, spending your life worshipping in church won't help.  as for worship and praise,  our hymns do that. 

[Jeanne]

57 minutes ago, Calm said:

It would be extremely hard for me to lie.  I would be replaying it over and over in my head.  I am not saying I have never lied or deceived (saying the exact truth knowing someone would misunderstand), but it makes me ill when I think about doing it.  The only lies I allow myself and even those I debate are the "I am fine" when I am not variety (I justify it by believing they don't want to hear the details and generally I am fine) and the reverse...allowing myself to blow up the need for preventative action for physical problems in my head to make an excuse not to go somewhere (there is always a significant cost for driving for some reason, I just push the payment higher in my mind though these days it is more just not saying I don't want to pay the cost though I could).  Avoiding deception was not an attribute I knowingly strived for.  Just grew up this way.

I understand that others don't feel the same way, but 'easy' is not a word I associate with dishonesty so I didn't realize that is what you meant.

Okay...I would never ever think that you would be okay with that.  Perhaps easy is not a good word..but if one wanted to get a recommend for a child's wedding..it could be done.

One would just have to pick the lesser of two evils. That being said, one shouldn't be put in this position to begin with.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Jeanne

[Robert F. Smith]

13 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

That's a good question. The article itself addresses some of the changes that might help. In addition to those I think adjusting the style of worship could be helpful for some people. In general, I think providing choices and variety for people to experience religion in ways that are meaningful to them, would go a long way, instead of expecting everyone to fit into the mold of attending 3 hours of church weekly where the lessons are continually recycled (often 3 on the same subject in one day), the organ music feels like a funeral dirge, speakers read conference talks. Those things work for some people and not for others.

I think the style of worship should be completely open for change as it is primarily cultural. In the past I have forgotten that the church is a tool to bring me to worship God in a meaningful way. It is not to be worshipped itself. The church is a box holding a pearl of great price. It is a tool that can be very beautiful in some ways to some people. But it is not the end result. It is only worthwhile insofar as it presents opportunities to the people to worship God. With that in mind there are many things that could change.

-length & quantity of meetings

-focus of worship from peripheral issues to focus on worshipping deity

-music

-appeals to external authorities

You appear to be onto something here, HappyJack.  Some excellent ideas.  I'd like to see some of them fleshed out.  For example, could worship-music styles and instruments properly vary according to the regional culture?  Also, MOTAB wears virtual uniforms/robes now, and even has a whole orchestra.  So why not go whole hog in congregational choirs?  With a little swaying and southern Gospel style delivery.  Also, we don't hear the hallelujahs that early Mormons and Methodists used to exclaim during church -- we've gotten too staid and respectable.  Some Pentecostalism might not hurt.

Judaism went through a quiet, restrained stage centuries ago, and Rabbi Israel (the Ba'al Shem Tov) introduced a pentecostal style of Judaism which caught on and is till with us in the form Chabad.  He renewed it and made it exciting.

[why me]

On 23.2.2017 at 5:09 PM, HappyJackWagon said:

A discussion yesterday reminded me of this article and I'm curious about your thoughts. While some will claim that Millenials are leaving because they are lazy, self-centered, non-resilient etc, I think there is a lot more going on here. This Article lists 12 Reasons Millenials are Over Church. Some reasons are self-explanatory but others require a little context so I encourage you to read the article if you don't understand the point. This phenomena with Millenials is in no way limited to our church, but rather is a cultural shift to which all churches need to adapt.

 

1. Nobody’s Listening to Us

2. We’re Sick of Hearing About Values & Mission Statements

3. Helping the Poor Isn’t a Priority

4. We’re Tired of You Blaming the Culture

5. The “You Can’t Sit With Us” Affect

6. Distrust & Misallocation of Resources

7. We Want to Be Mentored, Not Preached At

8. We Want to Feel Valued

9. We Want You to Talk to Us About Controversial Issues (Because No One Is)

10. The Public Perception

11. Stop Talking About Us (Unless You’re Actually Going to Do Something)

12. You’re Failing to Adapt

http://www.recklesslyalive.com/12-reasons-millennials-are-over-church/

It seems to me that without significant adaptation, churches in general, and the LDS church in particular, will lose the majority of a generation which will be difficult to regain. I'm curious what kind of adaptation you feel would be useful.

If you view adaptation as wrong, why?

I think that they are living in an age where meta-narratives are under suspicion. The LDS is a meta-narrative with its universal truth claim. Such claims are under suspicion because in this age, there is no universal truth. Rather there are only little highly individual truths. We also must consider the onslaught against christianity that has been taken place now for a few decades and the idea that values are also individualistic. One can argue that the rise of islamism is a direct result of the attempt to spead such western values (by proxy) inside the muslim world. And why we see more muslim women wearing the hijab or nijab today in Europe and in muslim dominated societies. It is a rejection of the west and its moral relativism.

So, the millems are living in this age and were raised in this age of such understanding that it is you who are the most important and it is you who must embrace your pwn individualism.

[why me]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You appear to be onto something here, HappyJack.  Some excellent ideas.  I'd like to see some of them fleshed out.  For example, could worship-music styles and instruments properly vary according to the regional culture?  Also, MOTAB wears virtual uniforms/robes now, and even has a whole orchestra.  So why not go whole hog in congregational choirs?  With a little swaying and southern Gospel style delivery.  Also, we don't hear the hallelujahs that early Mormons and Methodists used to exclaim during church -- we've gotten too staid and respectable.  Some Pentecostalism might not hurt.

Judaism went through a quiet, restrained stage centuries ago, and Rabbi Israel (the Ba'al Shem Tov) introduced a pentecostal style of Judaism which caught on and is till with us in the form Chabad.  He renewed it and made it exciting.

I don't think that it has much to do with small things like worship music. It has to do with what is going on in western societies and what is being taught and what exactly is influecing the millems. Take a trip to what used to be called western europe and one will see an amazing thing: young muslim girls wearing hijabs and young children too. Why? Because muslims parents have fear that their own teens and children will be influenced by western non-values and its rejection of traditional values. It is a direct reaction to western culture and its image of chaos. And they see just what has happened to western youth and to the millenials. They don't want such a culture to influence their own muslim metanarrative.

Edited February 25, 2017 by why me

[Bobbieaware]

On 2/23/2017 at 11:06 AM, JulieM said:

Yes, calling them sinners always brings them back too 

You do know there are many, many good, righteous people who no longer attend church or who are not members, right?

And the old stereotype that members leave to sin is not true in most cases (and least that I am personally aware of).

Unbelief is a form of sin. That is the point made in the verses I quoted from Mosiah 26. And the foundational sin (route sin) of unbelief leads to so may other sins, such as, but not limited to, the following: Not partaking of the sacramental emblems of the Lord's flesh and shed blood, refusing to attend church meetings as a means to help build the kingdom of God; cutting one's self off from the inspired and empowering instructions of the living oracles of God; neglecting the study of the Book of Mormon and casting aside as dross the other Restoration scriptures; refusing to attend the temple and do salvative proxy for the dead; walking away from one's sacred covenants; speaking poorly and unsupportively of the Lord's prophets, seers and revelators; failure to magnify one's callings; cessation of missionary work; failure to raise one's children within the household of God, and on and on and on. 

One doesn't have to commit overt sexual sin, ingest liquor and/or illicit drugs, or abuse a spouse in order to commit sin. Unbelief leads to a multitude of sins of omission, and sins of omission can be just as sinful as sins of commission. But it should also be understood that leaving the Church IS a sin of commission. It must also be understood that leaving the Church is far less sinful for who never actually obtained a genuine spiritual witness of the truth of the restored gospel than it is for those who did at one time obtain that revelatory spiritual witness from the Holy Ghost.

 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Bobbieaware

[Robert F. Smith]

9 hours ago, why me said:

I don't think that it has much to do with small things like worship music. It has to do with what is going on in western societies and what is being taught and what exactly is influecing the millems. Take a trip to what used to be called western europe and one will see an amazing thing: young muslim girls wearing hijabs and young children too. Why? Because muslims parents have fear that their own teens and children will be influenced by western non-values and its rejection of traditional values. It is a direct reaction to western culture and its image of chaos. And they see just what has happened to western youth and to the millenials. They don't want such a culture to influence their own muslim metanarrative.

That too.

[Tacenda]

19 hours ago, Calm said:

It would be extremely hard for me to lie.  I would be replaying it over and over in my head.  I am not saying I have never lied or deceived (saying the exact truth knowing someone would misunderstand), but it makes me ill when I think about doing it.  The only lies I allow myself and even those I debate are the "I am fine" when I am not variety (I justify it by believing they don't want to hear the details and generally I am fine) and the reverse...allowing myself to blow up the need for preventative action for physical problems in my head to make an excuse not to go somewhere (there is always a significant cost for driving for some reason, I just push the payment higher in my mind though these days it is more just not saying I don't want to pay the cost though I could).  Avoiding deception was not an attribute I knowingly strived for.  Just grew up this way.

I understand that others don't feel the same way, but 'easy' is not a word I associate with dishonesty so I didn't realize that is what you meant.

I'd always say yes to following the WoW but would explain that I drink diet coke or diet dr. pepper, and kind of back-track, couldn't just say a blanket 'yes', but come to think about it, I should have felt bad about eating more meat than is allowed too.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Tacenda

[Duncan]

9 hours ago, why me said:

I think that they are living in an age where meta-narratives are under suspicion. The LDS is a meta-narrative with its universal truth claim. Such claims are under suspicion because in this age, there is no universal truth. Rather there are only little highly individual truths. We also must consider the onslaught against christianity that has been taken place now for a few decades and the idea that values are also individualistic. One can argue that the rise of islamism is a direct result of the attempt to spead such western values (by proxy) inside the muslim world. And why we see more muslim women wearing the hijab or nijab today in Europe and in muslim dominated societies. It is a rejection of the west and its moral relativism.

So, the millems are living in this age and were raised in this age of such understanding that it is you who are the most important and it is you who must embrace your pwn individualism.

I have a former member friend that thinks like that, Mormonism is true for Mormons, Catholicism is true to Catholics etc etc. but overall what's true to you is the truth

[JLHPROF]

35 minutes ago, Duncan said:

I have a former member friend that thinks like that, Mormonism is true for Mormons, Catholicism is true to Catholics etc etc. but overall what's true to you is the truth

What utter nonsense.

[why me]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

I have a former member friend that thinks like that, Mormonism is true for Mormons, Catholicism is true to Catholics etc etc. but overall what's true to you is the truth

Catholics can have the same problem as the lds. They also are christian and have an universal truth claim that may run counter to general moral trends. And before Pope francis, catholics have been attacked for their moral truth claims. Amazingly, the Islamists and the far left seem to have colluded in promoting the notion that any criticism of Islam is equal to Islamaphobia. And as such, the muslim faith is generally left alone unlike the christian faith. The moral fabric is falling down in the west and islam will pick up the pieces with its own univeral claim under the cloak of identity politics. Would this be a tragedy for the west? Only future generations will know. However, it would be nice if christian values were promoted or supported or even face less criticism under its own cloak of identity politics.

[rodheadlee]

Here is a song for all of you millenials.

 

[Tacenda]

22 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

What utter nonsense.

Why is that utter nonsense. That's like me telling you your belief isn't true, yet to you it is. 

[JLHPROF]

39 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Why is that utter nonsense. That's like me telling you your belief isn't true, yet to you it is. 

But that's not what was said.  We aren't talking about differences of belief (I believe something is true and you don't or vice versa).
What was said is "true to you is the truth".

The quote implies that ALL beliefs are true depending on what you choose.  That's not how truth works.
Take this statement:  "Jesus of Nazareth was the Son of God."
 
Either he is the son of God or he isn't.  Even if I didn't believe he was the Son of God (not my truth) that does nothing to change the truthfulness of the claim.
When we start making claims that truth is variable based on belief we make nothing true.
Either Joseph Smith was a prophet or he wasn't.  Either the resurrection will happen or it won't.  Truth is NOT subject to belief, although it can be subject to interpretation.

[Jeanne]

On 2/25/2017 at 11:00 AM, Tacenda said:

I'd always say yes to following the WoW but would explain that I drink diet coke or diet dr. pepper, and kind of back-track, couldn't just say a blanket 'yes', but come to think about it, I should have felt bad about eating more meat than is allowed too.

While the Bishop's wife has a pot roast/steak home waiting for him.  No Tacenda..you shouldn't feel bad.

[Glenn101]

On 2/25/2017 at 1:00 PM, Tacenda said:

I'd always say yes to following the WoW but would explain that I drink diet coke or diet dr. pepper, and kind of back-track, couldn't just say a blanket 'yes', but come to think about it, I should have felt bad about eating more meat than is allowed too.

So, how much meat are we allowed to eat? I did not realize the word of wisdom laid out any quota.Of course we can get into a discussion about when it is okay to eat meats, but the focus on the word of wisdom has always been coffee, tea, tobacco, and alcoholic beverages. The prophets have born down hard on those things and given but little guidance on the rest. This is an area where the individual must make hos or her own peace with God. But as JHLPROF, I think, said, I do not know anyone who keeps the word of wisdom, at least perfectly.

Glenn

 

[Tacenda]

30 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

So, how much meat are we allowed to eat? I did not realize the word of wisdom laid out any quota.Of course we can get into a discussion about when it is okay to eat meats, but the focus on the word of wisdom has always been coffee, tea, tobacco, and alcoholic beverages. The prophets have born down hard on those things and given but little guidance on the rest. This is an area where the individual must make hos or her own peace with God. But as JHLPROF, I think, said, I do not know anyone who keeps the word of wisdom, at least perfectly.

Glenn

 

Well maybe that's because our church owns one of the largest cattle ranches in the US, maybe even the world. http://www.livestockweekly.com/papers/01/01/25/whldeseret.asp