12 Reasons Millenials are Over Church

[HappyJackWagon]

54 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

The common thread in almost all of these points to me on first glance (I admit, I have not yet had time to read the entire article) is ME, and more ME, pride, life is short YOLO and oh - entitlement.

1. Nobody’s Listening to Us - My initial reaction having millennial kids is that this means.  "You may be listening to us, but you are not changing what bothers us."  Which are usually the moral doctrines that will not change radically probably ever.

2. We’re Sick of Hearing About Values & Mission Statements - Sick of values = "I want to do what I want to do , and I am not having a bunch of old men tell me what I can do"

3. Helping the Poor Isn’t a Priority - Uh, this one speaks for itself.

4. We’re Tired of You Blaming the Culture - That is because the culture is promoting everything they are wanting and goes against what they are sick of.  The culture expects very little self-control from anyone IMO.

5. The “You Can’t Sit With Us” Affect - Admittedly, if this means a sense of exclusion or social rejection, that is something the church needs to continue to improve and foster.  

6. Distrust & Misallocation of Resources - As above, I believe more transparency is always good and needed. The church is making strides her that I hope will continue. 

7. We Want to Be Mentored, Not Preached At - Do they really want to be mentored?  Or is this just a smoke screen for "stop preaching that we need to be selfless and chaste to please God"?

8. We Want to Feel Valued - Valued for what?  They are valued for being a child of God, but I 'value' my children less when they just expect to be given benefits with no work or sacrifice.  The ones who contribute nothing and demand the most are the ones who sow great disharmony in the home - is church that much different?

9. We Want You to Talk to Us About Controversial Issues (Because No One Is) - The church is not talking about difficult issues?  I have read statements and heard lessons lately where - LGTBQ issues have been addressed including bathroom issues, political issues, refugees and troublesome church history.  Or do they mean "talk to us about controversial issues in a way that will make us feel like you are changing to be more in-line with the times"?

10. The Public Perception - No problem with public perception of piercings, gauges, tats, wearing gender defying clothes and hair - but they are worries about being perceived as religious?

11. Stop Talking About Us (Unless You’re Actually Going to Do Something) - I think the church is scrambling to do many things - but those things don't amount to what these people want.  Very time I have heard leaders talk about this generation, it is ALWAYS with love and a plea to remain faithful.

12. You’re Failing to Adapt - Failing to adapt to lowering moral standards?  If they hope that the church will accept sexually practicing gay people married or not into full fellowship, they will be waiting a long, long time.  If they hope the church will reduce the standards of sex outside of marriage, same thing.  If they are hoping they can consume craft beers and chilled coffee without repercussion etc.  They are not likely going to be happy in the church in their lifetimes.  

I am not trying to sound harsh, because that is not my personality at all.  But I do not see a way these people can be happy at church unless THEY make some serious changes to their morals and values. And personally speaking, I don;t really want anyone to be in the church who does not want to or who finds no happiness there.

 

You may not be "trying to sound harsh" but you sure sound that way to me. You are assigning the worst possible motive to each item even though, admittedly you haven't even read the article. Maybe you could put forth a touch of effort to understand what they are really saying. It might benefit you in some way because you clearly are not grasping the message.

[Maestrophil]

4 minutes ago, Duncan said:

that's every generation! if they find the magic elixir, share the wealth!

Except society at large and preceding generations discouraged it and it was a battle largely of youth vs establishment.  Now the millennial behavior is partly created and largely fostered by similar-minded Gen X-ers and Boomers who cheer for the 'progression' and 'freedoms' being championed by the youth.  It has become cool to be 'freaky' and stupid to be disciplined and humble - or submissive to any authority. Submission to the ultimate authority is what church is all about.  God's will eclipsing yours no matter what

 

[hope_for_things]

23 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

Well, they do release all financial information in Canada and the UK.  And Deloitte and Touche, who is not LDS does a complete audit of all church holdings every year looking for discrepancies.  I see the church publishing essay topics on difficult issues and the overall tone of the church tends to be towards more transparency and honest history.  As I said - I know there is still a long way to go here

The church gets no credit for releasing financial information in Canada and the UK.  They are required by law to release that information.  Sadly, the church used to be more transparent on finances in the past and they have gotten less transparent in the last 75 years.  

[HappyJackWagon]

22 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Bottom line is they want to sin and not feel guilty about it.

This kind of attitude is a good example of pushing Millenials out of the church.

JLHPROF asked why we should worry about adapting to fit the needs of Millenials.

Quote

JLHPROF- Looking at their list, you may be right.
I am really not sure what it is they are looking for from the Church, nor why the Church should be working hard to provide it.

The answer is pretty obvious- because they are children of God and IF the church is failing to communicate with them in a way that benefits them, it is a responsibility of the church to leave the 99 and seek after the one. Or in this case the 75% of the generation.

I honestly find the flippant attitudes disgusting. It represents the worst of the church and why people don't want to associate. If this is the best the church has to offer, why would anyone care about the church's message?  It's seriously disheartening to read this kind of dismissiveness. I refer you to Reason # 5.

 

Edited February 23, 2017 by HappyJackWagon

[juliann]

5 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I KNOW first hand that the church has commissioned new translation pictures that include the hat translation method...all have been rejected for public consumption...my guess... to quote Brother Packer "Some things that are true are not very helpful" or in other words better to keep it mysterious rather than create a picture that solidifies the Bizarre

I'm pretty certain the new translation pictures have been used officially. 

The problem with trying to second guess Millennials is that they haven't fully matured....and I don't mean that as an insult. I think you do need to get into midlife before settling in. As an aside, however, my friend who supervises college students in a practicum experience shared an email sent by a stereotypical "snowflake." The arrogance and entitlement as she instructed the teacher about to give her a grade as to how to better supervise her so she wouldn't "shut down" was jaw dropping. To this student, everything said by a supervisor was not direction it was criticism. These people do exist but it was a relief that the few of them in this program are considered unsuitable for the program. 

As to the list, I don't think it is exclusive to Millennials. I think a lot of older folks are mighty tired of the same things over and over as well. We are just better trained by this point ;-)  Nor did the older folks have to buck now strongly held societal values such as nondiscrimination against women's opportunities and gay rights, among others.  Just as with the priesthood ban, fighting against others based on tradition no longer feels right. It feels very wrong. It isn't like condemning something like adultery anymore. 

There is so much more to the church than "doctrine." I think it would be helpful to emphasize the community aspect and its importance in providing a supportive learning center. I recently read an article bemoaning the lack of public speaking sophistication in upcoming feminists. Hey, over here!! Groups provide the playing field. And if one is really serious, the church provides a color by numbers opportunity for humanitarian missions. My sister and husband are in Fiji providing diabetes care. The funding for that is huge, BTW. There is something for everyone but this can also requires a personal commitment to acquire skills that "the poor" can benefit from. It never sits right with me when people sit down and tell "the church" (which really just means somebody else) they should do more. 

For me, I think the current practice of requiring us to reteach conference talks that are there for the reading or listening is an example of the receding of intellectual stimulation (and yeah, that is key in spirituality, line up line, etc.)  Last Sunday, a newer member who was given one as a talk topic read it word for word. I found it delightful. That is what the conference speaker said, she did not put words in his mouth or tack on other stuff under the banner of his name he might not even approve of. 

Any changes for Millennials are likely going to benefit us all. 

 

 

[mapman]

1 hour ago, Maestrophil said:

I am not trying to sound harsh, because that is not my personality at all.  But I do not see a way these people can be happy at church unless THEY make some serious changes to their morals and values. And personally speaking, I don;t really want anyone to be in the church who does not want to or who finds no happiness there.

 

I absolutely wish more people were in the church that wouldn't be happy in it right now. I can't speak for everybody, but I think there are lots of people that have no problem with the Gospel and even believe in the Restoration, but feel pushed out because of other stuff in our culture that is hardly necessary to keep. I disagree that it is only millennials that need to change. While we keep being told how narcissistic and lazy we are, a lot of us feel like we keep getting screwed over by older generations. I'm sure there is exaggeration on oth sides, but my point is that despite our differences, people are all pretty similar, and all of us could use some more empathy and tolerance. The church doesn't have to change if it doesn't want to, but I am pretty confidant that if some cultural things were to change, it could be a huge positive.

Edit to add: I also don't think I've ever heard someone use "YOLO" unironically since I was a teenager. Millennials aren't teenagers anymore.

Edited February 23, 2017 by mapman

[Ouagadougou]

5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

A discussion yesterday reminded me of this article and I'm curious about your thoughts. While some will claim that Millenials are leaving because they are lazy, self-centered, non-resilient etc, I think there is a lot more going on here. This Article lists 12 Reasons Millenials are Over Church. Some reasons are self-explanatory but others require a little context so I encourage you to read the article if you don't understand the point. This phenomena with Millenials is in no way limited to our church, but rather is a cultural shift to which all churches need to adapt.

 

1. Nobody’s Listening to Us

2. We’re Sick of Hearing About Values & Mission Statements

3. Helping the Poor Isn’t a Priority

4. We’re Tired of You Blaming the Culture

5. The “You Can’t Sit With Us” Affect

6. Distrust & Misallocation of Resources

7. We Want to Be Mentored, Not Preached At

8. We Want to Feel Valued

9. We Want You to Talk to Us About Controversial Issues (Because No One Is)

10. The Public Perception

11. Stop Talking About Us (Unless You’re Actually Going to Do Something)

12. You’re Failing to Adapt

http://www.recklesslyalive.com/12-reasons-millennials-are-over-church/

It seems to me that without significant adaptation, churches in general, and the LDS church in particular, will lose the majority of a generation which will be difficult to regain. I'm curious what kind of adaptation you feel would be useful.

If you view adaptation as wrong, why?

I found this study to be interesting as well:

http://www.pewforum.org/2014/07/16/how-americans-feel-about-religious-groups/

Mormons were rated the lowest among those between the ages of 18 to 29.   

 

 

[Gray]

36 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Bottom line is they want to sin and not feel guilty about it.

I'm sure it's exactly that simple. Also they want to walk all over our lawns!

[stemelbow]

8 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

I found this study to be interesting as well:

http://www.pewforum.org/2014/07/16/how-americans-feel-about-religious-groups/

Mormons were rated the lowest among those between the ages of 18 to 29.   

 

 

Democrats rate Mormons lower than everyone else.  Republicans rate Mulsims below them all. 

Anyway, thought I'd point out the discrepancy via political ties. 

[JAHS]

14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

36 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Bottom line is they want to sin and not feel guilty about it.

This kind of attitude is a good example of pushing Millenials out of the church.

JLHPROF asked why we should worry about adapting to fit the needs of Millenials.

Quote

JLHPROF- Looking at their list, you may be right.
I am really not sure what it is they are looking for from the Church, nor why the Church should be working hard to provide it.

The answer is pretty obvious- because they are children of God and IF the church is failing to communicate with them in a way that benefits them, it is a responsibility of the church to leave the 99 and seek after the one. Or in this case the 75% of the generation.

I honestly find the flippant attitudes disgusting. It represents the worst of the church and why people don't want to associate. If this is the best the church has to offer, why would anyone care about the church's message?  It's seriously disheartening to read this kind of dismissiveness. I refer you to Reason # 5.

 

In my opinion the church is communicating very well but ultimately it is the responsibility of the the parents of these kids to teach and train and be good examples for them to follow. The church is there to teach correct principles and people have their own agency to follow or not follow it. 

[Thinking]

42 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Bottom line is they want to sin and not feel guilty about it.

 

[Maestrophil]

23 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

You may not be "trying to sound harsh" but you sure sound that way to me. You are assigning the worst possible motive to each item even though, admittedly you haven't even read the article. Maybe you could put forth a touch of effort to understand what they are really saying. It might benefit you in some way because you clearly are not grasping the message.

As I said - I knew I sounded harsh - I just meant that I was not trying to, but the response was harsh due to my interpretation of the list.  Now that I have read the article I see things differently in that 1. He is actually offering some pretty solid solutions, and 2. I think some of the problems in the way he mentions them are a lot less of an issue in mormonism as we do not hire out pastors etc.  I am open to changing many things that are not working - but when I get down to brass tack discussions with my millennial kids and coworkers, it almost always comes down to sexual freedom, body art, Word of Wisdom, and wanting an extra Saturday to play. Even their doubt in God comes form wondering "why would a loving and understanding God not want us to do whatever makes us happy".  Then the proceed to find 'god' Rock climbing and skiing in the mountains. I personally have not spoken to one inactive or doubting millennial who has expressed a great desire to be obedient.

 

13 minutes ago, mapman said:

I absolutely wish more people were in the church that wouldn't be happy in it right now. I can't speak for everybody, but I think there are lots of people that have no problem with the Gospel and even believe in the Restoration, but feel pushed out because of other stuff in our culture that is hardly necessary to keep. I disagree that it is only millennials that need to change. While we keep being told how narcissistic and lazy we are, a lot of us feel like we keep getting screwed over by older generations. I'm sure there is exaggeration on oth sides, but my point is that despite our differences, people are all pretty similar, and all of us could use some more empathy and tolerance. The church doesn't have to change if it doesn't want to, but I am pretty confidant that if some cultural things were to change, it could be a huge positive.

Edit to add: I also don't think I've ever heard someone use "YOLO" unironically since I was a teenager. Millennials aren't teenagers anymore.

The use of YOLO was semi-ironic, in that all my millennial kids were using it all the time as teens to justify stupid decisions, and I think the 'spirit' of YOLO is still alive and well in millennials even if the vernacular is not.

I honestly ask you Mapman - How old are you, and what are the cultural things that we need to change for millennials?  I really want to know this.  If I could make my inactive kids return to church by changing my approach, I would.  But if it by changing standards, then I can't.  I don;t make the standards.

[JAHS]

14 minutes ago, Thinking said:

14 minutes ago, Thinking said:

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

Bottom line is they want to sin and not feel guilty about it.

 

I am only pointing out one of the reasons for it. I am not saying we should not try to do something about it. But it starts in the home with the responsibility parents have to teach and train their children. 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

.........................................................................................

It seems to me that without significant adaptation, churches in general, and the LDS church in particular, will lose the majority of a generation which will be difficult to regain.

Actually the opposite is likely to be the case.  It is precisely the mainstream churches which are rapidly losing members, with the hard core churches being far more successful (evangelicals, Mormons, etc.).  Why?  Look at the complaints:  Overall the millennials want a faith that actually means something and which provides them with a significant challenge.  The idea that all religion is namby pamby is common enough, but look at what the Black churches did decades ago during the civil rights movement.  That was true heroism.

5 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

I'm curious what kind of adaptation you feel would be useful.

If you view adaptation as wrong, why?

Of course, adaptation is good, and always has been.  It is a survival technique, and the LDS Church has done a remarkable amount of it.  Or don't you know LDS history?

[Johnnie Cake]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

Who has the power to commission the new pictures and who has the power to reject them?  I thought that both groups included the same people?

I KNOW the painter who was commissioned by the church...I also KNOW the person who commissioned the paintings...he is not a GA...All I can surmise is that once he presented the completed paintings to the GA's for approval they were rejected...but he would have never commissioned  the work to begin with without some direction in the first place...all I know is that once completed they were never used and are now in some closet in the COB collecting dust.  Its speculation on my part as to why they were never used...my guess is that once the GA's saw the actual rock in hat picture...better judgement took over and they decided it was better not to ...ummmm put in picture form such a spiritual event cough cough

[Johnnie Cake]

57 minutes ago, Duncan said:

that's every generation! if they find the magic elixir, share the wealth!

Oh trust me I've found it...

[HappyJackWagon]

2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Actually the opposite is likely to be the case.  It is precisely the mainstream churches which are rapidly losing members, with the hard core churches being far more successful (evangelicals, Mormons, etc.).  Why?  Look at the complaints:  Overall the millennials want a faith that actually means something and which provides them with a significant challenge.  The idea that all religion is namby pamby is common enough, but look at what the Black churches did decades ago during the civil rights movement.  That was true heroism.

Of course, adaptation is good, and always has been.  It is a survival technique, and the LDS Church has done a remarkable amount of it.  Or don't you know LDS history?

Yes, I do know LDS history. Thanks for asking. But despite many examples of past adaptations the prospect of changing cultural traditions seems to be a scary idea.

As we mentioned earlier, it is an interesting conundrum for how to deal with millenials who do not like micromanagement and high demand religion despite research that shows high demand religions are more stable than the "namby pamby" ones  

But I don't think there is anything to celebrate regarding LDS church activation levels for Millenials. Pretending like the church isn't suffering from the same phenomena as the rest of the churches is putting ones head in the sand.

[JLHPROF]

51 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

This kind of attitude is a good example of pushing Millenials out of the church.

JLHPROF asked why we should worry about adapting to fit the needs of Millenials.

The answer is pretty obvious- because they are children of God and IF the church is failing to communicate with them in a way that benefits them, it is a responsibility of the church to leave the 99 and seek after the one. Or in this case the 75% of the generation.

I honestly find the flippant attitudes disgusting. It represents the worst of the church and why people don't want to associate. If this is the best the church has to offer, why would anyone care about the church's message?  It's seriously disheartening to read this kind of dismissiveness. I refer you to Reason # 5.

 

The attitudes may be bad, but what exactly can be done to make these people feel welcome.
Seriously, whatever happened to people changing when they accept the gospel.  Now the gospel has to change to get people to accept it?

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, juliann said:

I'm pretty certain the new translation pictures have been used officially. 

The problem with trying to second guess Millennials is that they haven't fully matured....and I don't mean that as an insult. I think you do need to get into midlife before settling in. As an aside, however, my friend who supervises college students in a practicum experience shared an email sent by a stereotypical "snowflake." The arrogance and entitlement as she instructed the teacher about to give her a grade as to how to better supervise her so she wouldn't "shut down" was jaw dropping. To this student, everything said by a supervisor was not direction it was criticism. These people do exist but it was a relief that the few of them in this program are considered unsuitable for the program. 

As to the list, I don't think it is exclusive to Millennials. I think a lot of older folks are mighty tired of the same things over and over as well. We are just better trained by this point ;-)  Nor did the older folks have to buck now strongly held societal values such as nondiscrimination against women's opportunities and gay rights, among others.  Just as with the priesthood ban, fighting against others based on tradition no longer feels right. It feels very wrong. It isn't like condemning something like adultery anymore. 

There is so much more to the church than "doctrine." I think it would be helpful to emphasize the community aspect and its importance in providing a supportive learning center. I recently read an article bemoaning the lack of public speaking sophistication in upcoming feminists. Hey, over here!! Groups provide the playing field. And if one is really serious, the church provides a color by numbers opportunity for humanitarian missions. My sister and husband are in Fiji providing diabetes care. The funding for that is huge, BTW. There is something for everyone but this can also requires a personal commitment to acquire skills that "the poor" can benefit from. It never sits right with me when people sit down and tell "the church" (which really just means somebody else) they should do more. 

For me, I think the current practice of requiring us to reteach conference talks that are there for the reading or listening is an example of the receding of intellectual stimulation (and yeah, that is key in spirituality, line up line, etc.)  Last Sunday, a newer member who was given one as a talk topic read it word for word. I found it delightful. That is what the conference speaker said, she did not put words in his mouth or tack on other stuff under the banner of his name he might not even approve of. 

Any changes for Millennials are likely going to benefit us all. 

 

 

Do you have to have a current temple recommend to serve in those service missions? I probably know the answer to this question, which makes me sad I can't participate, because I'm not sure I can answer that I know JS is a prophet.

Edited February 23, 2017 by Tacenda

[ksfisher]

28 minutes ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I KNOW the painter who was commissioned by the church...I also KNOW the person who commissioned the paintings...he is not a GA...All I can surmise is that once he presented the completed paintings to the GA's for approval they were rejected...but he would have never commissioned  the work to begin with without some direction in the first place...all I know is that once completed they were never used and are now in some closet in the COB collecting dust.  Its speculation on my part as to why they were never used...my guess is that once the GA's saw the actual rock in hat picture...better judgement took over and they decided it was better not to ...ummmm put in picture form such a spiritual event cough cough

This happens with multiple church projects.  Art, graphics, or other similar things are created; then as the project nears completion changes are made. Some ideas that had looked good early in the project are found to no longer fit in.  Other things are created to take their place.  Ideas change as projects go through the process of being completed.  I don't think this is unique to the church, we all use some sort of editing process as we create.  In writing these sentences I've gone back and removed some words which, at the time seemed good, but after being written I discovered there were better ones.

Second thought.  Perhaps the pictures were just no good (or didn't fit someones idea of good)

[mapman]

57 minutes ago, Maestrophil said:

As I said - I knew I sounded harsh - I just meant that I was not trying to, but the response was harsh due to my interpretation of the list.  Now that I have read the article I see things differently in that 1. He is actually offering some pretty solid solutions, and 2. I think some of the problems in the way he mentions them are a lot less of an issue in mormonism as we do not hire out pastors etc.  I am open to changing many things that are not working - but when I get down to brass tack discussions with my millennial kids and coworkers, it almost always comes down to sexual freedom, body art, Word of Wisdom, and wanting an extra Saturday to play. Even their doubt in God comes form wondering "why would a loving and understanding God not want us to do whatever makes us happy".  Then the proceed to find 'god' Rock climbing and skiing in the mountains. I personally have not spoken to one inactive or doubting millennial who has expressed a great desire to be obedient.

 

The use of YOLO was semi-ironic, in that all my millennial kids were using it all the time as teens to justify stupid decisions, and I think the 'spirit' of YOLO is still alive and well in millennials even if the vernacular is not.

I honestly ask you Mapman - How old are you, and what are the cultural things that we need to change for millennials?  I really want to know this.  If I could make my inactive kids return to church by changing my approach, I would.  But if it by changing standards, then I can't.  I don;t make the standards.

I appreciate you wanting to listen! I was born in the early 90s, so towards the end of the millennial generation, depending on how you define it. I can't speak for everyone in my generation obviously, and I don't actually have anything other than anecdotal data. Clearly some people just aren't interested in living a spiritual life, but the biggest hangup for people that I have seen for people that are actually conflicted about the church is the political conservatism of the church and the feeling that you have to conform to strict cultural norms. I know that the church has advocated some things that don't fit into the republican agenda like advocating for more humane treatment of illegal immigrants, but all you ever hear about on the local level are conservative talking points. I think millennials are more likely to see things like discrimination, climate change, and economic inequality to be crises that we need to face, not whether we should be checking if someone is transgender before they use a bathroom.

Obviously LGBT issues are the big thing for a lot of people, and this one is more difficult. For me (and I suppose I'm probably not alone), the church's teachings on sexuality are obviously currently incomplete, but I understand that other people have strong convictions otherwise. I would be a lot more comfortable even if none of the teachings changed, but people were more open to members being able to express different opinions on this matter. Right now, I don't feel like I can talk about how I feel about a lot of things at church, and I'd feel a lot better about things if I could feel like a devoted member without agreeing with everything. Hopefully that makes sense, sorry if it was kind of rambling.

Edited February 23, 2017 by mapman

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, Gray said:

I think what is meant by that is that millennials are concerned that churches aren't focused enough on helping the poor. 

It is such an obvious thing when you see Temples, Malls, and lands being bought as well as not being upfront where the monies really go.  I believe this generation really wants to help..and feel hindered somehow.  I don't know...maybe those changes in the missionary programs will help.  I do not envy a seminary teacher.  The kids know the deal and they are asking questions..some are being discussed..like the gays and they are not happy campers.

[mapman]

33 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The attitudes may be bad, but what exactly can be done to make these people feel welcome.
Seriously, whatever happened to people changing when they accept the gospel.  Now the gospel has to change to get people to accept it?

I'm just curious as what you define as the Gospel? I haven't seen anyone suggesting that it would be necessary to change the gospel to make people feel more welcome. Obviously the gospel entails personal change and growth. I think what a lot of millennials don't like is being asked to conform to unnecessary cultural expectations. I guess maybe some older people think some things are essential to the gospel or church that other people don't think are essential at all.

[JLHPROF]

12 minutes ago, mapman said:

I'm just curious as what you define as the Gospel? I haven't seen anyone suggesting that it would be necessary to change the gospel to make people feel more welcome. Obviously the gospel entails personal change and growth. I think what a lot of millennials don't like is being asked to conform to unnecessary cultural expectations. I guess maybe some older people think some things are essential to the gospel or church that other people don't think are essential at all.

So define an unnecessary cultural expectation that the Church has and let's see if it's part of the gospel or not.

Edited February 23, 2017 by JLHPROF

[Maestrophil]

6 minutes ago, mapman said:

I appreciate you wanting to listen! I was born in the early 90s, so towards the end of the millennial generation, depending on how you define it. I can't speak for everyone in my generation obviously, and I don't actually have anything other than anecdotal data. Clearly some people just aren't interested in living a spiritual life, but the biggest hangup for people that I have seen for people that are actually conflicted about the church is the political conservatism of the church and the feeling that you have to conform to strict cultural norms. I know that the church has advocated some things that don't fit into the republican agenda like advocating for more humane treatment of illegal immigrants, but all you ever hear about on the local level are conservative talking points. I think millennials are more likely to see things like discrimination, climate change, and economic inequality to be crises that we need to face, not whether we should be checking if someone is transgender before they use a bathroom.

Obviously LGBT issues are the big thing for a lot of people, and this one is more difficult. For me (and I suppose I'm probably not alone), the church's teachings on sexuality are obviously currently incomplete, but I understand that other people have strong convictions otherwise. I would be a lot more comfortable even if none of the teachings changed, but people were more open to members being able to express different opinions on this matter. Right now, I don't feel like I can talk about how I feel about a lot of things at church, and I'd feel a lot better about things if I could feel like a devoted member without agreeing with everything. Hopefully that makes sense, sorry if it was kind of rambling.

Thank you for being willing to share.  I really do appreciate it.  I would like to see if you could elaborate on the "strict cultural norms" you mentioned.  I live in SLC in a very diversified area and many members or my ward are democrats and I have had no flak from stating that I did not support the republican candidate at tall this past election.   I agree that in some areas the tone might be "be republican or go home" but I do not find that in my ward.  So what are the conservative talking points you are referring to?  

What do you mean when you say the churches teachings on sexuality are "obviously" not complete?  Do you feel that you (and others who feel like you) are just not going to be happy unless the church allows an open window for the possibility that gay marriage could be accepted within the framework of the church and that expressing that should be received without correction?  As I said before, that will be a very frustrating wait, because I don't see that ever changing.  Kindness towards LBGTQ people is, gladly,  increasing and being taught very actively by the church now, but I don't think calling it 'righteous' will ever be a part of the church.  That is what I meant when I said I didn't mean to sound harsh - but if people are waiting for that to change before they stay or come back to the church, maybe would really be better off not dealing with the frustration of trying to fit a square peg in a round hole so to speak.  My son left largely because of feeling sex should be ok between any consenting people and that pot, coffee and alcohol should be OK.  If those were permitted, he probably would come to church - but again, he realized that was not going to happen, and separated himself instead.  One of my daughters has a big problem with Gays and the church, Sexual freedom, abortion etc.  Again, it's not theological ro social as much as it just hampers her from living the life she wants to lead, and society tells her the most important thing today is to be able to 'be your authentic self" and do whatever you please.  

Please let me know what some of these other issues are that concern you and your friends specifically?  your voice is important to me because My kids are closer to your age Late teens to mid 20.