The Second Coming/Christ's Return

[Belshazzar]

As I've been reading the New Testament lately, one of the things that has been difficult to read about and stomach is that all of the Apostles were expecting Christ to come back during their lifetime, despite the fact that Christ told them that no one would know the hour of His return. I know that prophets can be fallible, but it's difficult when their entire theology seems to be composed around how His coming is going to be incredibly soon (during their lifetime). Thoughts?

[Guest]

On October 18, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Belshazzar said:

As I've been reading the New Testament lately, one of the things that has been difficult to read about and stomach is that all of the Apostles were expecting Christ to come back during their lifetime, despite the fact that Christ told them that no one would know the hour of His return. I know that prophets can be fallible, but it's difficult when their entire theology seems to be composed around how His coming is going to be incredibly soon (during their lifetime). Thoughts?

Each generation thinks that things are so bad that the coming of Christ must be soon. It was the same with the early Apostles. They understood that the "hour or the day" could not be known, but seeing the dangers awaiting Israel, though that it might be in their lifetime. There have been times in my life I have thought the same. When it says "no man knoweth" it means none, not even the Prophets and Apostles. So when they guess wrong, it does not reflect on them as false Prophets and Apostles. They are not privy to the "hour or day" than any other man. 

Edited October 19, 2016 by Bill "Papa" Lee

[Belshazzar]

This is a good answer  I know that I should come to terms more in this regard and accept them as being fallible on this account. It's just hard because it makes me wonder if they only taught the things that they did in the New Testament because they thought that those things (the events leading to the end of the world) were going to happen soon, you know? 

[Anijen]

When the Lord said; "no man knows..." I have always understood that to be past, present, and future. However, I have heard some people say that when Christ said that (back then), no man knew. They would go on to say that Christ knows now and so can some other people. This coincides with also Matthew 5:48 were the Savior tells us to be perfect, even as Father in Heaven is perfect. Yet, after the Saviors death and resurrection and visiting those in America he tells them: what manner of men ought ye to be? Even as I am. So things could change after certain events have happened. Perhaps some might know now. I would even venture to say the Lord knows when he will return and perhaps he has given that info to a lucky few. 

 

I dunno, but I hope it is very soon.

Edited October 18, 2016 by Anijen

[Belshazzar]

That would be a cool thing to know  what I'm particularly talking about is Paul in his ministry writes and urges the Saints that the Second coming is going to happen soon and that it will be any day from then, but then towards the end of his ministry he starts to change his opinion of when it will be and how soon. Then in Second Peter the writer writes that it probably won't be for a while but that The Lord will be faithful to His promises. So there is some change going on there. 

It just makes it difficult because you will ask yourself how much you can trust something if people just change their mind on when it will be.

I'm trying to be faithful though.

[bluebell]

I think it's helpful to remember the whole "line upon line" thing. That's how God teaches us. 

With this kind of a system, as it pertains to things that God doesn't directly reveal, we are bound to change our minds about things as we gain more understanding and knowledge. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

Truly only Heavenly Father knows and probably Jesus Christ is aware now when He will return, but other than those 2 I doubt anyone can predict. We know to look for signs, and they haven't announced a new temple in Jackson County, Missouri yet so we are probably a ways off.

[strappinglad]

To be fair, within a few decades of Christ's death, things got pretty bleak for Israel and it may have seemed like their world was coming to an end. In the early days of the LDS Church it seemed that most members felt that the end was nigh even at the door. Early leaders often spoke as if it was soon. Current leaders are much more circumspect. Having reviewed the Signs of the Times , I can see where many signs have been fulfilled but there are many which have to come to pass before Christ returns. I for one have no interest in experiencing the ' Abomination of Desolation ' . I do see a couple of ways that such an event could unfold.

Edited October 19, 2016 by strappinglad

[Belshazzar]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think it's helpful to remember the whole "line upon line" thing. That's how God teaches us. 

With this kind of a system, as it pertains to things that God doesn't directly reveal, we are bound to change our minds about things as we gain more understanding and knowledge. 

That's true. That's definitely how revelation works. It's just crazy because I never realized that all the times that I had read the New Testament I never realized that they were talking about it so many times and how it would occur very soon. It makes me wonder if they were only doing all of the things that they talked about because they were preparing for it and otherwise they wouldn't have done them. That's what worries me? Like they might have only been living the Law of Consecration in Acts because of that. 

And then in 2nd Peter the writer of the Epistle writes the Apologetic that the Lord will delay his coming. So for the whole New Testament they think it's going to happen and then they reverse it. 

57 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

To be fair, within a few decades of Christ's death, things got pretty bleak for Israel and it may have seemed like their world was coming to an end. In the early days of the LDS Church it seemed that most members felt that the end was nigh even at the door. Early leaders often spoke as if it was soon. Current leaders are much more circumspect. Having reviewed the Signs of the Times , I can see where many signs have been fulfilled but there are many which have to come to pass before Christ returns. I for one have no interest in experiencing the ' Abomination of Desolation ' . I do see a couple of ways that such an event could unfold.

 

The way that I view it the Abomination of Desolation was the event where the Jewish temple was destroyed in AD 70. Because the disciples asked two questions. They asked "When will the temple be destroyed?" And "When will your return be?" 

The first question is the one that he gave all of the signs to. All of those signs were fulfilled in AD 70. Then the second question he said that only the Father knows the timing of his return. 

 

Thats is why it confuses me so much that they always think that the Second Coming is going to happen because Christ continually says that they have no idea when it will be. 

[rayhale]

One major question I have is, "What will you do if the Second Comming is NOT soon?" What if the world celebrates a new century or even a new millennium and nothing happens? Would you go out in the streets, rob, loot, kill, since you've lost your faith in God? If so, please tell me when you think the world will end, so I can stay as far away from you as I possibly can the day after.

Quote

 

 

[Kevin Christensen]

22 hours ago, Belshazzar said:

As I've been reading the New Testament lately, one of the things that has been difficult to read about and stomach is that all of the Apostles were expecting Christ to come back during their lifetime, despite the fact that Christ told them that no one would know the hour of His return. I know that prophets can be fallible, but it's difficult when their entire theology seems to be composed around how His coming is going to be incredibly soon (during their lifetime). Thoughts?

In this chapter of Paradigms Regained, I observe that everything that the Old World Apostles were expecting to happen with the Lord's return did happen in 3 Nephi.

http://publications.mi.byu.edu/fullscreen/?pub=2694&index=6

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[thesometimesaint]

Whether he comes to see me, or I go to see him, if the results are the same it doesn't matter to me.

[snowflake]

Matthew 24 give us some clues as well as to when he will return.

[JLHPROF]

Remarks on the coming of the Son of Man by Joseph Smith the Prophet. Made in Nauvoo - Words of Joseph Smith 180

Christ says no man knoweth the day or the hour when the Son of Man cometh. This is a sweeping argument for sectarianism against Latter day ism. 
Did Christ speak this as a general principle throughout all generations?

Oh no he spoke in the present tense no man that was then living upon the footstool of God knew the day or the hour But he did not say that 
there was no man throughout all generations that should not know the day or the hour. No for this would be in flat contradiction with 
other scripture for the prophet says that God will do nothing but what he will reveal unto his Servants the prophets consequently if 
it is not made known to the Prophets it will not come to pass; 

Again we find Paul 1st of Thessalonians 5th Chapter expressly points out the characters who shall not know the day nor the hour when the 
Son of Man cometh for says he it will come upon them as the thief or unawares. Who are they? They are the children of darkness or night. 
But to the Saints he says yea are not of the night nor of darkness of that that day should come upon you unawares. 

John the Revelator says 14 chap 7th verse that the hour of his judgements is come they are precursors or forerunners of the coming of Christ, read 
Matthew 24 Chap and all the Prophets. He says then shall they see the Sign of the coming of the Son of Man in the clouds of Heaven. 
How are we to see it Ans. As the lighting up of the morning or the dawning of the morning cometh from the east and shineth unto the 
west — So also is the coming of the Son of Man. The dawning of the morning makes its appearance in the east and moves along gradually 
so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. it will be small at its first appearance and gradually becomes larger until every eye shall 
see it. Shall the Saints understand it? Oh yes. Paul says so. Shall the wicked understand? Oh no they attribute it to a natural cause. 
They will probably suppose it is two great comets coming in contact with each other.  It will be small at first and will grow larger and larger untill it 
will be all in a blaze so that every eye shall see it. 

[VideoGameJunkie]

I want the Millennium to usher in 1000 years of peace but I don't want to be around when all the bad things in the world happen.

[sunstoned]

Mormonism is an apocalyptic religion.  At least it use to be. Even our name "latter day saints" has roots back to this apocalyptic mind set.  JS and other leaders prophesied of the end.  As a youth, I was told many times that it was my generation that would usher in the millennium. I am 60 years old, and I am still waiting. Maybe in a hundred years or so we will get a revelation to change our name.

 

 

[sunstoned]

dublicate

Edited October 22, 2016 by sunstoned
duplicate

[waveslider]

3 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Mormonism is an apocalyptic religion.  At least it use to be. Even our name "latter day saints" has roots back to this apocalyptic mind set.  JS and other leaders prophesied of the end.  As a youth, I was told many times that it was my generation that would usher in the millennium. I am 60 years old, and I am still waiting. Maybe in a hundred years or so we will get a revelation to change our name.

 

 

I don't think we have much longer until the tribulations start to occur. I see secular signs of it as well now days. As a child I was told the same thing as you about our generation, but it all seemed to be more prophetic things telling us that the tribulations are coming, not so much what was happening all around us. I remember when Pres. Kimball (If I remember right) first told us all to get a year's supply of food. Everyone thought it was nuts. People were asking what would we need that for? There were people worried that the Mormons were going to try to hoard all the food. Now days, I see even non religious people telling everyone to prepare for massive civil unrest. To have supplies and back up plans, etc..

With the national debt so huge that taxes can't even pay for the interest on the debt, let alone actually start to pay it off, the U.S. isn't going to be able to stand much longer. Mathematically it is impossible to not have our economy collapse sometime in the near future. Also with the changes in our Sun that have recently begun to occur, judging by what happened the last time the Sun did this, we are in for some real natural disasters and famine type of problems as well. Things aren't going to be the same for too much longer, judging by the signs of both prophecy and secular knowledge. Perhaps we will be ushering in the second coming, as senior citizens, but still alive to do so.

[CV75]

On 10/18/2016 at 11:50 AM, Belshazzar said:

As I've been reading the New Testament lately, one of the things that has been difficult to read about and stomach is that all of the Apostles were expecting Christ to come back during their lifetime, despite the fact that Christ told them that no one would know the hour of His return. I know that prophets can be fallible, but it's difficult when their entire theology seems to be composed around how His coming is going to be incredibly soon (during their lifetime). Thoughts?

All we have of the earliest apostles is a smattering of epistles, not enough in my opinion to conclude that their understanding of the immediacy of the Second Coming changed. Seeing that they were of another time, place and culture, it is reasonable that they were presenting the Gospel message in the context of the urgency to repent (Alma 34:33). If we don’t know the timing of an event, but we sense the urgency to prepare spiritually regardless of the event, it is understandable that some would believe the Second Coming is imminent.

Note that “last days” often meant “our most recent, or current times,” not necessarily the times just prior to the Lord’s Second Coming. The days of the apostles were certainly the last days of the Lord’s dispensation, so sometimes the term referred to that. Any saint of any dispensation is also living in the last days of his reliance on the arm of flesh as he prepares for a more excellent way, and with consistent repentance, each day is therefore the last (or among the last) of his old ways (day not necessarily meaning a 24-hour period). The kingdom of God also progresses as the stone rolls forth.

I always liked what President Kimball said: “When Satan is bound in a single home—when Satan is bound in a single life—the Millennium has already begun in that home, in that life” (The Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, ed. Edward L. Kimball [1982], 172).

[SteveO]

I hope I'm not derailing the thread, but I've been wanting to ask this for a while now.

My brother and I always joked that we would be ready to go to Missouri at the drop of a hat. "Any day now we're getting a phone call".

I always thought there was always going to be a literal gathering in Missouri, but I've read a few posts here that have suggested that it is due to a misunderstanding of what would happen in the last days among the membership of the church.

Ive been looking all over in scripture and commentary, but I haven't found a satisfactory answer: What exactly are we as members looking to happen in the last days?  What are we expecting the first presidency to do during the coming days of unrest and tribulation?  I've always taken comfort in the fact that the church is going to be prepared, that we're going to know what to do, that we will be organized, but what will that look like?  What announcement are we waiting for?

 

[waveslider]

7 hours ago, SteveO said:

I hope I'm not derailing the thread, but I've been wanting to ask this for a while now.

My brother and I always joked that we would be ready to go to Missouri at the drop of a hat. "Any day now we're getting a phone call".

I always thought there was always going to be a literal gathering in Missouri, but I've read a few posts here that have suggested that it is due to a misunderstanding of what would happen in the last days among the membership of the church.

Ive been looking all over in scripture and commentary, but I haven't found a satisfactory answer: What exactly are we as members looking to happen in the last days?  What are we expecting the first presidency to do during the coming days of unrest and tribulation?  I've always taken comfort in the fact that the church is going to be prepared, that we're going to know what to do, that we will be organized, but what will that look like?  What announcement are we waiting for?

 

It is my understanding that Missouri is going to get wiped clean first: “The western boundries of the State of Missouri will be swept so clean of its inhabitants that, as President Young tells us, when we return to that place, ‘There will not be left so much as a yellow dog to wag his tail.’” (Prophetic Sayings of Heber C. Kimball to Sister Amanda H. Wilcox, n.p., n.d., p. 6.) So personally I wouldn't be quite so eager to go there just yet.

We do know that the New Jerusalem will be built there after it has been swept clean, and I'm quite certain that there will be quite a few people from all 12 tribes gathering to build it up, including the lost tribes, but it doesn't mean that it will be all the members in the world who gather to build it up:

"1  A revelation of Jesus Christ unto his servant Joseph Smith, Jun., and six elders, as they united their hearts and lifted their voices on high.
2  Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion, which shall be the city of New Jerusalem.
3  Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased.
4  Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation.
5  For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house."
D&C 84:1-5

This is where Christ will reign during the Millennium, but it doesn't mean we will all have to be there, just like we all don't have to be in Salt Lake City, Utah even though the current church headquarters are currently there. The New Jerusalem will only be the center stake. We will have stakes of Zion all over the place. We are to create Zion where we are now. Unless we are told by the Spirit to leave we should probably stay where we are and create the holy places upon which we can stand, not necessarily go running to find holy places:

"Let me say a few words with regard to Zion. We profess to be Zion. If we are the pure in heart we are so, for “Zion is the pure in heart” [see D&C 97:21] (DBY, 118). Where is Zion? Where the organization of the Church of God is. And may it dwell spiritually in every heart; and may we so live as to enjoy the spirit of Zion always! (DBY, 118)." (Teachings: Brigham Young, Chapter 16: Building Zion)

I'm quite certain that anyone who is supposed to gather at Missouri to build up the New Jerusalem, will know from revelation that the Lord has called them to do so.

At least that is my understanding of what we can expect to happen.