Devotion and Despair: The lonely struggle of a gay Mormon

[Kenngo1969]

12 hours ago, USU78 said:

And thus we see the heroic in the ignored mundane

I appreciate the sentiment, even if it probably vastly overstates the case.

Thank you.  

[california boy]

16 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Yes!  That's me! I'm exceedingly odd. I'm the center of my own (infinitesimally small) universe. I subscribe to dozens of periodicals and scour them daily, solely for any mention of my name. Simultaneously, my eyes are glued to a bank of televisions, each of which is tuned to a respective 24-hour news outlet for the same purpose! Self-centered, solely self-interested, completely self-absorbed! Careful, though. if I were you, I wouldn't get too close: I'm a veritable black hole, and if you get sucked in, you will cease to exist!

Unlike the rest of you, who apparently are capable of considering infinite permutations of infinite situations from infinite points of view (and, hence, can readily put yourselves precisely into the shoes of the young man whose situation we are discussing so as to understand exactly what he felt), I, alas, lack that ability: I, by contrast, can only speak to my own experience, which is what I was doing in the foregoing post.  I failed to realize how completely irrelevant it is.

Silly me. I thought this was a discussion board. I didn't know that I had wandered into a heretofore unknown (to me, at least) sub-forum called Stemelbow's Echo Chamber. Now that I've been apprised of the existence of Stemelbow's Echo Chamber, I will be much more circumspect about my participation henceforth.

My apologies.

 

Your struggles are just as real and just as deep as the young man in the OP.  They are very real issues that you struggle with.  I wish I could do something to help you find peace.  Sometimes life feel overwhelming for all of us, despite the brave face we may put on for the world.  Don't loose faith.  You deserve a wonderful life just like everyone else.  We all have pain.  Some are just better at hiding it.

[california boy]

On July 21, 2016 at 10:43 PM, stemelbow said:

This is a tough story to read through. Thanks for sharing.  This stuff tears me up inside. 

my close friend's blog:

http://barenakednate.blogspot.com/

His latest entry talks about his suicidal thoughts.  Long but worth the read. 

 

Your friends blog is so close to how I dealt with being a gay member of the church.  I could have written almost the exact same thing.  Though I never considered suicide as an option.  Even when I was younger.

[ERMD]

I'm confident the Savior met him with open arms.

[USU78]

20 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I appreciate the sentiment, even if it probably vastly overstates the case.

Thank you.  

De nada,  Kenny

[mfbukowski]

On 7/22/2016 at 6:58 AM, USU78 said:

And thus we see the heroic in the ignored mundane

AND the contrast between the pain of one bravely enduring his inability to connect with a potential spouse and remaining worthy while others endure similar problems and eventually take the path of least resistance and break the commandments just to solve their personal loneliness!  We all crave love, but the question becomes how far each of us will go to get it.

I have had a few personal tragic events in my life where I have felt that loneliness as well and though I cannot say I know anyone's personal situation but mine, I have enormous sympathy for those enduring it, yet as Ken suggests, I have learned that it IS possible to learn to make the best of it and when confronting even suicide, choosing life instead instead of the path of least resistance.  

Perhaps that is one reason I often appear less than sympathetic in discussing this topic than some feel I should be.  We all have our temptations.

Kudos to our dear Ken!!

[Jeanne]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

Your struggles are just as real and just as deep as the young man in the OP.  They are very real issues that you struggle with.  I wish I could do something to help you find peace.  Sometimes life feel overwhelming for all of us, despite the brave face we may put on for the world.  Don't loose faith.  You deserve a wonderful life just like everyone else.  We all have pain.  Some are just better at hiding it.

I agree.

[Kenngo1969]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

Your struggles are just as real and just as deep as the young man in the OP.  They are very real issues that you struggle with.  I wish I could do something to help you find peace.  Sometimes life feel overwhelming for all of us, despite the brave face we may put on for the world.  Don't loose faith.  You deserve a wonderful life just like everyone else.  We all have pain.  Some are just better at hiding it.

Thank you for the kind sentiments.  I appreciate them.  One thing I've learned, though, is that true peace seldom is the absence of trial or struggle (how would it be?! )  Peace can be found even in the midst of trial and struggle, ambiguity and as-yet unanswered questions.  Were it not so, no true peace could be had, for trial, struggle, ambiguity, and unanswered questions are the very stuff of mortal life.  

[Kenngo1969]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

... Kudos to our dear Ken!!

Thank you.

[Kenngo1969]

I have a theory. If we were all to gather in a giant room, in the center of which stood a giant table, for a “trials exchange,” and each of us were to bring his respective trials to pile upon the table, many of us would opt to leave the room with the same trials we had when we came in. (While this is not a judgment against those who have taken drastic measures in an effort to alleviate their tremendous pain, I believe that's even true of some gay members of the Church of Jesus Christ.)

I'm reminded of when my family and I went to Spain in 2013. Unbeknownst to my poor parents before they booked the tour, the company that hosted our tour has options with varying levels, from “leisurely” to “active” with other options in between. Our tour was an “active” one. I probably did more walking in those eight days than I've done in the entire three years since.  Not a few members of our group asked me, in essence, “How do you do it?” My response was always the same: “The same way you do: I simply keep putting one foot in front of the other.”

I don't think that's a bad metaphor for life.  

[jkwilliams]

2 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I have a theory. If we were all to gather in a giant room, in the center of which stood a giant table, for a “trials exchange,” and each of us were to bring his respective trials to pile upon the table, many of us would opt to leave the room with the same trials we had when we came in. (While this is not a judgment against those who have taken drastic measures in an effort to alleviate their tremendous pain, I believe that's even true of some gay members of the Church of Jesus Christ.)

I'm reminded of when my family and I went to Spain in 2013. Unbeknownst to my poor parents before they booked the tour, the company that hosted our tour has options with varying levels, from “leisurely” to “active” with other options in between. Our tour was an “active” one. I probably did more walking in those eight days than I've done in the entire three years since.  Not a few members of our group asked me, in essence, “How do you do it?” My response was always the same: “The same way you do: I simply keep putting one foot in front of the other.”

I don't think that's a bad metaphor for life.  

Yeah, I wouldn't trade with anyone. My trials one advantage: they're mine. 

[The Nehor]

Who doesn't wish this stupid life is over? Suck it up wimps!

This post is brought to you by a Nehor sore after convincing himself he is still 21 and wrecking his body and by the number 3 and the letter L.

[california boy]

My family was one of those  perfect Mormon families.  We all seemed to be going through life without any major difficulties.  We would get together and everyone would talk about how life is just perfect.  Kids were perfect.  No one had any problems.  Then  when I came out to my family, one by one my siblings came to me and confided their biggest secret.  One sister in law told me how she battled depression.  Another sister talked about her marriage that was just a shell of what it appeared to be.  Another told me how she battled never being perfect enough.  It was like me coming out and revealing a life long struggle opened the floodgates for others to share their own flaws.  I think there is a lot of pressure in the church to appear to have the perfect life.  Perhaps that is one of the reasons some feel so desperate when their life is one of quiet desperation.  

I have a good friend.  I actually met him through my children.  He used to come on outings that I would do with my kids.  He was always very nice, very polite, a great kid.  Then I met him at an Evergreen conference, and found out that he was struggling with being gay.  I was already out at the time so I assume he already knew.  We became close and I was someone he felt safe to talk to.  The only ones that knew he was gay were his parents.  His father completely rejected him and refused to even believe that his son was gay.  He struggled with that rejection and was scared to death that his siblings would find out.  He attended the same singles ward as two of my kids.  He would tell me that he would try to date women in the ward, but it was just useless.  He just couldn't pretend that things were going well.  So he would quit calling them.  They would call up, upset.  What was wrong with them.  Why didn't he want to continue to date.  They felt totally rejected.  So he just quit dating.  But that was never enough.  He would go on ward activities and the women had a great time with him.  They wanted more than just group activities with him.  Something he couldn't do.  Eventually he just quit going to church.  He couldn't deal with it any longer.

I have never told him how to deal with being gay.  I think everyone has to figure that out for themselves.  I just hope that he never feels like nobody loves him or could love him.  That is an awful burden to carry.  "Men are, that they might have joy" does not always work out for everyone.  I guess that is why I have always liked the Carol Lynn Pearson  primary song, "I'll Walk With You"  I feel it is about this very subject.

[mfbukowski]

Newsflash :

EVERYONE'S life includes much private desperation.

Don't blame the church or anyone else. Fix it.

That's what you do, or die

That is what faith is for.

[Robert F. Smith]

20 hours ago, california boy said:

My family was one of those  perfect Mormon families.  We all seemed to be going through life without any major difficulties.  We would get together and everyone would talk about how life is just perfect.  Kids were perfect.  No one had any problems.  Then  when I came out to my family, one by one my siblings came to me and confided their biggest secret.  One sister in law told me how she battled depression.  Another sister talked about her marriage that was just a shell of what it appeared to be.  Another told me how she battled never being perfect enough.  It was like me coming out and revealing a life long struggle opened the floodgates for others to share their own flaws.  I think there is a lot of pressure in the church to appear to have the perfect life.  Perhaps that is one of the reasons some feel so desperate when their life is one of quiet desperation.  

I have a good friend.  I actually met him through my children.  He used to come on outings that I would do with my kids.  He was always very nice, very polite, a great kid.  Then I met him at an Evergreen conference, and found out that he was struggling with being gay.  I was already out at the time so I assume he already knew.  We became close and I was someone he felt safe to talk to.  The only ones that knew he was gay were his parents.  His father completely rejected him and refused to even believe that his son was gay.  He struggled with that rejection and was scared to death that his siblings would find out.  He attended the same singles ward as two of my kids.  He would tell me that he would try to date women in the ward, but it was just useless.  He just couldn't pretend that things were going well.  So he would quit calling them.  They would call up, upset.  What was wrong with them.  Why didn't he want to continue to date.  They felt totally rejected.  So he just quit dating.  But that was never enough.  He would go on ward activities and the women had a great time with him.  They wanted more than just group activities with him.  Something he couldn't do.  Eventually he just quit going to church.  He couldn't deal with it any longer.

I have never told him how to deal with being gay.  I think everyone has to figure that out for themselves.  I just hope that he never feels like nobody loves him or could love him.  That is an awful burden to carry.  "Men are, that they might have joy" does not always work out for everyone.  I guess that is why I have always liked the Carol Lynn Pearson  primary song, "I'll Walk With You"  I feel it is about this very subject.

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments here, although the dictum that "men are that they might have joy" is meant for the afterlife, not here and now.

[california boy]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments here, although the dictum that "men are that they might have joy" is meant for the afterlife, not here and now.

Oh I never knew that. I.thought we were promised happiness on earth too. Am I rare in finding happiness here

[Calm]

1 minute ago, california boy said:

Oh I never knew that. I.thought we were promised happiness on earth too. Am I rare in finding happiness here

I have never read that as promising happiness in the here and now, though it can happen.  The "might" always seemed future tense though in the sense of a state of being or a possession rather than the temporary, often momentary happiness, even joy we experience in mortality.

You would need to define "happiness" in terms of length and intensity, I think, before you can start comparing your experience to others.

I for one do not believe that joy is identical to happiness, I see joy as something more sublime, more enlightening and uplifting than happiness.  Godly perhaps.

[thatjimguy]

You know, how much of this stems from the idea that the Celestial Kingdom is the only thing worth shooting for? I'm not trying to belittle it, but didn't Joseph Smith syat the other kingdoms were so terrific we would die to get to them?

For that matter, although we say we all want the Celestial kingdom, hasn't past leaders state that many Mormons aren't going there anyway? Also, I just read an except of many passages from leaders stating that there will be no chance to progress after this life anyway.

So considering all the possibility of not making it anyway, why place so much stress on gays about not making it. Chances are we aren't either.

Edited July 25, 2016 by thatjimguy

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, thatjimguy said:

You know, how much of this items from the idea that the Celestial Kingdom is the only thing worth shooting for? I'm not trying to belittle it, but didn't Joseph Smith syat the other kingdoms were so terrific we would die to get to them?

 

I remember hearing this in my youth. I have since learned that the provenance of the quote is less than impeccable -- a third-hand recollection of something supposedly uttered 33 years earlier. This, for me, is very nearly enough to put it in the category of urban myth.

And I don't believe it in any case. Knowing and understanding the doctrine of salvation and exaltation as I do, I would not commit suicide for the instant gratification of going to the telestial kingdom, a place reserved for the unsavory characters of mortality.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[Thinking]

I was once hired by a fine arts professor to teach his son how to play a certain sport. The son was more interested in sports than fine arts, and the father knew nothing about that sport. He found out that I had experience in that sport and so he asked for my help. While I was coaching his son I was impressed that this man would allow his son to focus more on a sport than fine arts. I decided right then that if my son (or daughter) wanted to participate in something other than my favorite activity, I would not stand in his way. I would not be that dad who lives vicariously through his children. Neither of my children ended up playing sports, and my wife and I supported them in their chosen activities.

My decision to not stand in my child's way has now moved from activities to sexual orientation. My son has come out as gay and it has been a roller coaster of emotions for him as he tries to figure out his place in this world. I have told him that I will support his choice. I worry about him every day.

[Scott Lloyd]

46 minutes ago, Thinking said:

I was once hired by a fine arts professor to teach his son how to play a certain sport. The son was more interested in sports than fine arts, and the father knew nothing about that sport. He found out that I had experience in that sport and so he asked for my help. While I was coaching his son I was impressed that this man would allow his son to focus more on a sport than fine arts. I decided right then that if my son (or daughter) wanted to participate in something other than my favorite activity, I would not stand in his way. I would not be that dad who lives vicariously through his children. Neither of my children ended up playing sports, and my wife and I supported them in their chosen activities.

My decision to not stand in my child's way has now moved from activities to sexual orientation. My son has come out as gay and it has been a roller coaster of emotions for him as he tries to figure out his place in this world. I have told him that I will support his choice. I worry about him every day.

Are there any choices your child might make that would not be OK with you and that would incline you to stand in his way?

I guess the point of my question is that there are some matters that some parents might regard as far more serious than having a child go out for the basketball team when you hoped he would take concert band instead.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Scott Lloyd

[thatjimguy]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I remember hearing this in my youth. I have since learned that the provenance of the quote is less than impeccable -- a third-hand recollection of something supposedly uttered 33 years earlier. This, for me, is very nearly enough to put it in the category of urban myth.

And I don't believe it in any case. Knowing and understanding the doctrine of salvation and exaltation as I do, I would not commit suicide for the instant gratification of going to the telestial kingdom, a place reserved for the unsavory characters of mortality.

Wow. Looks like you are right on that one. I thought I read it somewhere myself so I kept it in my head as a truth.

But it doesn't change all too much as my above thoughts as they glories are heavens after all.

----

On a side thought..

Isn't Jesus' yoke supposed to be light? What is it about LDS thinking that makes it so stressful that suicide is a possible answer to some? I've heard critics talk of us having an "impossible gospel". Is it LDS society that has it wrong? If so, what are we missing in the scriptures or teachings that would tell us to "lighten up"?

[Scott Lloyd]

2 hours ago, thatjimguy said:

Wow. Looks like you are right on that one. I thought I read it somewhere myself so I kept it in my head as a truth.

But it doesn't change all too much as my above thoughts as they glories are heavens after all.

----

On a side thought..

Isn't Jesus' yoke supposed to be light? What is it about LDS thinking that makes it so stressful that suicide is a possible answer to some? I've heard critics talk of us having an "impossible gospel". Is it LDS society that has it wrong? If so, what are we missing in the scriptures or teachings that would tell us to "lighten up"?

I'm not persuaded that LDS thinking does drive people to suicide.

Critics cite high suicide rates in Utah. The fact of the matter is, the high rate seems to have more to do with high altitude than anything else -- so much so that the high-altitude mountain states are dubbed by some psychologists as "the suicide belt." Thing is, Utah, with it's dense population of Mormons, has lower rates than surrounding states.

[california boy]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

I have never read that as promising happiness in the here and now, though it can happen.  The "might" always seemed future tense though in the sense of a state of being or a possession rather than the temporary, often momentary happiness, even joy we experience in mortality.

You would need to define "happiness" in terms of length and intensity, I think, before you can start comparing your experience to others.

I for one do not believe that joy is identical to happiness, I see joy as something more sublime, more enlightening and uplifting than happiness.  Godly perhaps.

Thanks for your take on that scripture. In all of the countless times I have read that scripture I always thought it met in this life and that is what made it do profound for me. I guess I assume everyone believes heaven will be a place of joy. But being in tune with Gid while on earth can bring you joy in this life. Now I am not sure that is what it means

[california boy]

6 hours ago, Thinking said:

I was once hired by a fine arts professor to teach his son how to play a certain sport. The son was more interested in sports than fine arts, and the father knew nothing about that sport. He found out that I had experience in that sport and so he asked for my help. While I was coaching his son I was impressed that this man would allow his son to focus more on a sport than fine arts. I decided right then that if my son (or daughter) wanted to participate in something other than my favorite activity, I would not stand in his way. I would not be that dad who lives vicariously through his children. Neither of my children ended up playing sports, and my wife and I supported them in their chosen activities.

My decision to not stand in my child's way has now moved from activities to sexual orientation. My son has come out as gay and it has been a roller coaster of emotions for him as he tries to figure out his place in this world. I have told him that I will support his choice. I worry about him every day.

What a terrific father. I think it is important for any parent to realize that they are not living their child's life and each of us have to make our own decisions.  While a parent can guide, they cannot choose how our kids live their lives. I guess that is easier to say when you have great kids and you can trust their judgement even if they make choices you might not make for your life. Good for you