Devotion and Despair: The lonely struggle of a gay Mormon

[Calm]

Didn't come up in a search (let me no if duplicate and I will delete), so posting it for those who might be interested:

http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/16/living/gay-mormon-struggle/index.html

"

(CNN)On the night of February 12, 2016, Harry Fisher spent a few hours online: He scrolled through Facebook, checked his email. He searched Google Maps for nearby canyons and read through the lesson plan for a Sunday school class he would not live to teach.

Fisher navigated to LDS.org, the official website for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and clicked on a page he knew well: the church-issued "Gospel Doctrine Teacher's Manual."

From there, Fisher visited the webpage of the assigned lesson plan for the upcoming Sunday; it was titled "I Know in Whom I Have Trusted." The last section of the lesson suggested asking class members to analyze a chapter from the Book of Mormon and report on how the scriptural characters responded to discouragement.

Perhaps Fisher was looking for answers himself.

The 28-year-old Brigham Young University student was under stress in his final semester at school. He had fallen behind in his classes and failed a job screening that his mother said he had placed high hopes in. And in his last month of life, he publicly outed himself as gay on Facebook.

The Sunday school manual's answers were meant to be a model for Latter-day Saints to follow. Some suggested answers included: "Read the scriptures," "Trust in the Lord and look to Him for support" and "Engage in mighty prayer."..."

[BlueDreams]

Thanks. I thought the article was good and unbiased, showing complexity to the issue of both suicide and church stance. I wish the man had found community. I've been to a North Star related convention and it was apparent that many of the attendees knew each other. At the very least could chat with each other and know someone else "gets it." Or gotten ahold of the BYU group. Suicide is always sad and though church stance may have not helped in someways, the isolation of emotions and thought I think are a big linchpin. If there's no one to bounce ideas, confront poor cognitions, or give examples of a middle route to problems, then the black and white/all or nothing thinking that could be seen in some of the last thoughts/actions surrounding his career and schooling cannot be balanced out. They're also prominent in most forms of depression and anxiety.

I also think that there are things with UT/ID that can make it difficult in and of itself. This is especially so with very rigid LDS. Particularly in the more homogenous communities. In unrelated issues such as divorce, teen pregnancy, porn use, and Suicidal thoughts etc. I've seen a number of issues become more pronounced and rigid because of the culture surrounding it. I've had several women struggle with divorce...not because of still loving their spouse (though most did), but because of the stigma associated with it. I also think that more rigid lds communities (UT and ID don't hold all of them) can foster heavy black and white thinking by asserting too many absolutes, insisting on 1-3 key answers for any given challenge, and reducing focus of individual variety in answers from God. I've seen this not only in strident LDS but in a number of lds people who have left or are leaving the church and see them in someway as 2 side of the same cultural phenomena. 

I don't say any of this to bash on UT. To bash on more conservative LDS members. Or to criticize any one group. It's just something that I see pieces of as I do therapy and work with couples or families during my day. it's also something I see at times with my family as well. I also know that suicide, depression, and anxiety have a lot to NOT do with the church. I have a cousin who's very young, has a very support not super traditional LDS family that shows love all the time, that's outside of ut in a fairly diverse community, and is welcomed and loved at family reunions and at such isn't shut down by his peer cousins for talking of very gay things at times...yet he still struggles with social anxiety and feelin loved by his family. It's obviously a help but other people cannot fix all individual struggles. 

 

With luv, 

BD

Edited July 21, 2016 by BlueDreams

[Storm Rider]

Surprisingly good, balanced article.  Thanks for sharing it.  

Edited July 21, 2016 by Storm Rider

[rockpond]

So heartbreaking.  But, thanks for sharing.  I hope everyone on these boards will take the time to read it.  As others above said:  it is balanced.  And it provides a picture of what many of our gay brothers and sisters in the church face.

[Jeanne]

I am in tears.  Such a wonderful human being..intelligent..gentle..and so confused.  It sounds as if though he thought he was doing God and his religion a favor by ending this life. There is so much more to all of this that we cannot see or understand.  My heart breaks..

[Storm Rider]

31 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am in tears.  Such a wonderful human being..intelligent..gentle..and so confused.  It sounds as if though he thought he was doing God and his religion a favor by ending this life. There is so much more to all of this that we cannot see or understand.  My heart breaks..

Confused?  I can see how one may find confusion in convincing himself that if he forfeited his life he would find it with God.  I did not find a high degree of confusion in the article about this very thoughtful young man.  

What I found particularly poignant was that he felt his work was done on the earth and chose to end it.  His mother's discussion on his loneliness was of great value and warning to each individual, regardless of sexual preference, that feels alone.  Being alone is a weight that can quickly overwhelm and bring even the strongest of individuals to a point where ending their life is preferable to enduring the pain they feel.  

Where did you find in the article that he thought his choice to end his life was an act done to please the Church?  I missed that entirely.  Likewise about God?

[Jeanne]

5 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Confused?  I can see how one may find confusion in convincing himself that if he forfeited his life he would find it with God.  I did not find a high degree of confusion in the article about this very thoughtful young man.  

What I found particularly poignant was that he felt his work was done on the earth and chose to end it.  His mother's discussion on his loneliness was of great value and warning to each individual, regardless of sexual preference, that feels alone.  Being alone is a weight that can quickly overwhelm and bring even the strongest of individuals to a point where ending their life is preferable to enduring the pain they feel.  

Where did you find in the article that he thought his choice to end his life was an act done to please the Church?  I missed that entirely.  Likewise about God?

This was just my interpretation.  That he felt through the scriptures.  I am very willing to be wrong about this.  But I felt that he was confused about what to be and how to handle his own situation as gay and member of the church.  IMO.  We all get something different when we try to find sense in suicide.

[Storm Rider]

8 hours ago, Jeanne said:

This was just my interpretation.  That he felt through the scriptures.  I am very willing to be wrong about this.  But I felt that he was confused about what to be and how to handle his own situation as gay and member of the church.  IMO.  We all get something different when we try to find sense in suicide.

Jeanne, I respect your opinion and I acknowledge that we all read and interpret things differently.  My objective was just to find out what in the article lead you to your conclusions.  

He knew that he was gay and that he was comfortable enough with that identity to make a declaration on his Facebook page.  More importantly, he recognized and saw himself as a faithful LDS committed to living a life in accordance with the Church of Jesus Christ's teachings.  This was demonstrated by his recent temple recommend interview for which he answered faithfully and honestly.  I appreciate the fact that he knew who he was and appeared comfortable with that knowledge and understanding.  

Suicide is a complex topic and few of us grasp the range and depth of feelings involved for the individual.  The one thing of which I am certain is that none of us understands the complete picture for the individual who commits suicide or the choices they have made.  

Edited July 22, 2016 by Storm Rider

[Jeanne]

39 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Jeanne, I respect you opinion and I acknowledge that we all see and interpret different things.  My objective was just to find out what in the article lead you to your conclusions.  He knew that he was gay and that he was comfortable enough with that declaration and that is why he announced it on his Facebook page.  More importantly, he knew he was a LDS and was committed to living a life in accordance with the Church of Jesus Christ's teachings.  This was demonstrated by his recent temple recommend interview for which he answered faithfully and honestly.  I appreciate the fact that he knew who he was and appeared comfortable with that knowledge and understanding.  

Suicide is a complex topic and few of us grasp the range and depth of the feelings involved for the individual.  The one thing I am certain of us that none of us understands the complete picture for the individual and the choices they have made.  

Yes...he did all of this and confronted and made plain who he was and his commitment to living Church principles.  How?  How could he not be confused as to his place in the world?  How do you understand God's love and believe it..while not being able to be a part of who you are..and he is God's child!  How do you love God this much and not receive the basic core of love and living life?  Confused..and scared. Read the scriptures..prayer..and he still felt so all alone. 

[Storm Rider]

18 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Yes...he did all of this and confronted and made plain who he was and his commitment to living Church principles.  How?  How could he not be confused as to his place in the world?  How do you understand God's love and believe it..while not being able to be a part of who you are..and he is God's child!  How do you love God this much and not receive the basic core of love and living life?  Confused..and scared. Read the scriptures..prayer..and he still felt so all alone. 

How does an individual overcome all trials and tribulations?  For all of the talk of atheists, agnostics, etc., I don't recall every reading a heroic story which did not include an individual with a firm understanding of themselves and the role to play.  Heroes are convinced of their role and have few, if any, doubts.  

This young man came to a point where he felt his work was done; he did not see a further need to stay.  We may debate his understanding of God's love, what our purpose is in life, a wide range of topics, etc., but this man felt there was nothing left for him and based on his last thoughts he wanted to be on the other side rather than remain here.  

We each know of scriptures where people were raised in the knowledge of God, prayer, scriptures, etc., and yet they still had not experienced that spiritual experience that turns an individual into a valiant servant.  The first apostles sat at the feet of the perfect teacher and still never came to this point while the Savior was with them.  

This young man may have had such a personal, spiritual experience - maybe many of them - but somehow, in his life, he found, he concluded, that his place was not here.  I will not judge him or his motives.  I will not pity him because I still see him as a noble son of our Father in Heaven.  I am grateful that his wounds, as with all our wounds, may be healed. I pray that the peace he sought permeates his being in the loving embrace of our God and creator.  

[stemelbow]

This is a tough story to read through. Thanks for sharing.  This stuff tears me up inside. 

my close friend's blog:

http://barenakednate.blogspot.com/

His latest entry talks about his suicidal thoughts.  Long but worth the read. 

 

[Guest]

Knowing all too well how these issues effect members (most certainly the young) families, and Church membership, my heart and soul ache for all those impacted. Young people lack the perspective that comes with age. They often see the difficulties they face, as an affliction without end. That hopelessness it is almost impossible to bare, even more so when they see God's Love, their parent's love and the love of of those within the Church as "conditional". It does not matter if this is real or precieved, either way perception is reality to the depressed. I know the heartache all to well when it concerns this particular issue. I assure all reading this of two things, parents need to make sure nothing they say makes their children see their love as conditional, and they being Gay is not a "choice". 

Now to the depression...it is not something that you just "snap of of", it can and will consume the mind. Depression alone can be overcome through therapy and understanding, but not if the person suffering feels that they seek help or understanding. When it comes to homosexuality, so many young people who are having trouble cannot admit to themselves the problem. So it becomes even harder to admit or speak to parents or anyone else the truth. Compassion also must not be, or be conditional, as Christ taught us; "...if ye love only those who love you, what reward have you" (to paraphrase). No child should feel as if there is no way out but suicide, for the sake of the child or the parent. This choice leaves the child and the parent in a place where neither can be reconciled one to another. 

May God grant that we all love as he loves...he will show us how, if we let him. 

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Jeanne said:

Yes...he did all of this and confronted and made plain who he was and his commitment to living Church principles.  How?  How could he not be confused as to his place in the world?  How do you understand God's love and believe it..while not being able to be a part of who you are..and he is God's child!  How do you love God this much and not receive the basic core of love and living life?  Confused..and scared. Read the scriptures..prayer..and he still felt so all alone. 

I had a client recently try to kill themself. Without going into detail I'll say it had absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation or gender identity but did have to do with another hot button topic (porn...and not in the way that you're probably imagining this). I remember being surprised because the depth of the person's suffering wasn't evident and their risk before this seemed really minor. From an outsider the reasons didn't add up. There were better ways to cope, better outs that weren't always ideal but could still lead to happiness and fulfillment in the long run. It still meant their was  intrinsic value in their life irrespective of changes in partners, relationships, roles, or anything else. It went beyond loving God, which this person certainly believed in. Our minds want simple solutions that make sense to us. They're usually biased on our assumptions about what is most damaging influence. For those who don't think Porn is a big deal and that the church should lighten up on its rhetoric, they could easily blame the church indoctrination for bringing about my client's attempt. For those in the church, one could say that if porn wasn't introduced into the marriage, there wouldn't have been such a strain to lead to the suicidality.

But in truth neither would be fully right. I have met several people who are gay, have porn issues, don't fit into the church mold in some way, and most of them are not suicidal. I've seen people in situations that on paper are far worse than the poor brother in this article who haven't even really contemplated it. At best most may wish they could just be done with whatever struggle they have but actual dying isn't on their list. Having difficult situations, even with ones where there is no to little clear answers, doesn't mean they'll feel as you mentioned and fall apart. Depession, anxiety, bipolar disorder, and other mental illness are more likely to lead to death. Isolation can lead to death. Culture can influence this, sure. But without extreme pressures where people are insisting death is the only honorable out for the individual. ..Culture can only go so far.

WIth depression or anxiety (which I would wager he had to some extent), reading the scriptures and prayer doesn't mean you can easily feel the spirit. It often dampens all emotions and connections to feel more dim or distant and fuel isolation that reifies the feelings.  His readings infer that he probably had a number of severe distortions where many things can act as verifications for one's worth. Any member, if he could have outreached  would have told him that much. Plus the decision to kill oneself can lead to a bubble of hope or happiness in a relatively dark period because they have direction. That happiness could easily be confused as spiritual or confirmation that this is the right path. But without these distortions and darkness and the right triggers to fuel a sense of hopelessness, being gay and an existential sense of not living one part of you fully isn't enough.

 

With luv,

BD

[jkwilliams]

Calm, thanks for sharing this. Painful stuff. The turmoil and especially the self-loathing are heartbreaking and really resonate with me. I still struggle with trying not to hate myself, but not like I used to. 

[Jeanne]

29 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

I had a client recently try to kill themself. Without going into detail I'll say it had absolutely nothing to do with sexual orientation or gender identity but did have to do with another hot button topic (porn...and not in the way that you're probably imagining this). I remember being surprised because the depth of the person's suffering wasn't evident and their risk before this seemed really minor. From an outsider the reasons didn't add up. There were better ways to cope, better outs that weren't always ideal but could still lead to happiness and fulfillment in the long run. It still meant their was  intrinsic value in their life irrespective of changes in partners, relationships, roles, or anything else. It went beyond loving God, which this person certainly believed in. Our minds want simple solutions that make sense to us. They're usually biased on our assumptions about what is most damaging influence. For those who don't think Porn is a big deal and that the church should lighten up on its rhetoric, they could easily blame the church indoctrination for bringing about my client's attempt. For those in the church, one could say that if porn wasn't introduced into the marriage, there wouldn't have been such a strain to lead to the suicidality.

But in truth neither would be fully right. I have met several people who are gay, have porn issues, don't fit into the church mold in some way, and most of them are not suicidal. I've seen people in situations that on paper are far worse than the poor brother in this article who haven't even really contemplated it. At best most may wish they could just be done with whatever struggle they have but actual dying isn't on their list. Having difficult situations, even with ones where there is no to little clear answers, doesn't mean they'll feel as you mentioned and fall apart. Depession, anxiety, bipolar disorder, and other mental illness are more likely to lead to death. Isolation can lead to death. Culture can influence this, sure. But without extreme pressures where people are insisting death is the only honorable out for the individual. ..Culture can only go so far.

WIth depression or anxiety (which I would wager he had to some extent), reading the scriptures and prayer doesn't mean you can easily feel the spirit. It often dampens all emotions and connections to feel more dim or distant and fuel isolation that reifies the feelings.  His readings infer that he probably had a number of severe distortions where many things can act as verifications for one's worth. Any member, if he could have outreached  would have told him that much. Plus the decision to kill oneself can lead to a bubble of hope or happiness in a relatively dark period because they have direction. That happiness could easily be confused as spiritual or confirmation that this is the right path. But without these distortions and darkness and the right triggers to fuel a sense of hopelessness, being gay and an existential sense of not living one part of you fully isn't enough.

 

With luv,

BD

Thanks so much for sharing.  I admire that you are able to help people cope. Self worth is everything and especially in a world that is so quick to condemn.and the culture is ever changing.  I wish YOU well.  It takes a special person to have and love a job like this.

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

How does an individual overcome all trials and tribulations?  For all of the talk of atheists, agnostics, etc., I don't recall every reading a heroic story which did not include an individual with a firm understanding of themselves and the role to play.  Heroes are convinced of their role and have few, if any, doubts.  

This young man came to a point where he felt his work was done; he did not see a further need to stay.  We may debate his understanding of God's love, what our purpose is in life, a wide range of topics, etc., but this man felt there was nothing left for him and based on his last thoughts he wanted to be on the other side rather than remain here.  

We each know of scriptures where people were raised in the knowledge of God, prayer, scriptures, etc., and yet they still had not experienced that spiritual experience that turns an individual into a valiant servant.  The first apostles sat at the feet of the perfect teacher and still never came to this point while the Savior was with them.  

This young man may have had such a personal, spiritual experience - maybe many of them - but somehow, in his life, he found, he concluded, that his place was not here.  I will not judge him or his motives.  I will not pity him because I still see him as a noble son of our Father in Heaven.  I am grateful that his wounds, as with all our wounds, may be healed. I pray that the peace he sought permeates his being in the loving embrace of our God and creator.  

With all my heart..I hope you are right about all of this. 

[mfbukowski]

The conflict of being gay must be beyond what those of us who are not, can imagine.

So very sad, and heart wrenching!  How very sad that one aspect of life could so completely engulf all the positive, all the good and reasonable alternatives life offers, to the exclusion of all else.

Just a tragedy!

[Kenngo1969]

I empathize with this young man's plight.  That said, about 10 percent of life is about what happens to us, while 90 percent of it is about how we respond to what happens to us.  I get the urge to say, "Forget it!  Chuck it all!  I'm done!  I haven't had very good luck (good fortune, many blessings, frame it however you want) in this life; maybe that'll change in the next!"  I really do.  I'm not necessarily judging this young man.  His plight and his fate are between him and his Savior.  I'll let them work it out.

That said, I can either (1)(a) bemoan, eternally, the fact that I seem to have attracted the collective indifference of the fairer gender in its entirety ("Tsk-tsk-tsk!  Not the same thing, Ken!  You're not gay!" OK.  Except functionally, with the chances I have of getting married in this life at this point, it pretty much is); or (1)(b) Say, "Sole possession of the remote control; the ability (subject to other constraints) to come, to go, and to do as I please; to eat what I want, when I want; to do or to watch what I want, when I want, without having to worry about what she will think of me for eating it, watching it, or doing it," and so on.  Is the latter a poor substitute for finding The One?  Yeah, maybe, but I'm a pragmatist: I'll take what I can get: if I can't find anyone who truly can see what she's looking at, not my problem.

I can either (2)(a) bemoan the fact that my most expensive degree isn't likely to turn into a career and is, instead, likely to remain a very expensive hobby, along with bemoaning the fact that I'm now making $0.95 an hour more than I was making nearly 20 years ago when I left a similar job and then finally decided to pursue that degree ... and now am back doing essentially the same thing; or, I can (2)(b) say, "Yeah, it sucks.  No, it's not what I envisioned doing with my life.  Yeah, I hope to God I don't have to do it much longer (will someone, somewhere please hire me to do something else?!!").  But at least I have a job; if nothing else, it does pay the bills!  And hey!  $0.95 an hour more is $0.95 an hour more!  At this rate, in 20 years, I'll be making a whole ... $12.95 an hour!"

And so on.

Again, I'm not unsympathetic, but if someone is looking (through the wrong end of the binoculars) for reasons to chuck it all, guess what one is likely to find?  And if one is looking for reasons to stick around (or at least, is willing to question whether the images he sees while looking through the wrong end of the binoculars accurately reflect reality), guess what one is likely to find?  To borrow and to slightly alter something attributed to the infamous, inimitable Major Frank Burns of M*A*S*H, "I believe in the sanctity of human life, no matter how ugly or disgusting it gets!"  (He was talking about marriage.)

 

Edited July 22, 2016 by Kenngo1969

[USU78]

38 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I empathize with this young man's plight.  That said, about 10 percent of life is about what happens to us, while 90 percent of it is about how we respond to what happens to us.  I get the urge to say, "Forget it!  Chuck it all!  I'm done!  I haven't had very good luck (good fortune, many blessings, frame it however you want) in this life; maybe that'll change in the next!"  I really do.  I'm not necessarily judging this young man.  His plight and his fate are between him and his Savior.  I'll let them work it out.

That said, I can either (1)(a) bemoan, eternally, the fact that I seem to have attracted the collective indifference of the fairer gender in its entirety ("Tsk-tsk-tsk!  Not the same thing, Ken!  You're not gay!" OK.  Except functionally, with the chances I have of getting married in this life at this point, it pretty much is); or (1)(b) Say, "Sole possession of the remote control; the ability (subject to other constraints) to come, to go, and to do as I please; to eat what I want, when I want; to do or to watch what I want, when I want, without having to worry about what she will think of me for eating it, watching it, or doing it," and so on.  Is the latter a poor substitute for finding The One?  Yeah, maybe, but I'm a pragmatist: I'll take what I can get: if I can't find anyone who truly can see what she's looking at, not my problem.

I can either (2)(a) bemoan the fact that my most expensive degree isn't likely to turn into a career and is, instead, likely to remain a very expensive hobby, along with bemoaning the fact that I'm now making $0.95 an hour more than I was making nearly 20 years ago when I left a similar job and then finally decided to pursue that degree ... and now am back doing essentially the same thing; or, I can (2)(b) say, "Yeah, it sucks.  No, it's not what I envisioned doing with my life.  Yeah, I hope to God I don't have to do it much longer (will someone, somewhere please hire me to do something else?!!").  But at least I have a job; if nothing else, it does pay the bills!  And hey!  $0.95 an hour more is $0.95 an hour more!  At this rate, in 20 years, I'll be making a whole ... $12.95 an hour!"

And so on.

Again, I'm not unsympathetic, but if someone is looking (through the wrong end of the binoculars) for reasons to chuck it all, guess what one is likely to find?  And if one is looking for reasons to stick around (or at least, is willing to question whether the images he sees while looking through the wrong end of the binoculars accurately reflect reality), guess what one is likely to find?  To borrow and to slightly alter something attributed to the infamous, inimitable Major Frank Burns of M*A*S*H, "I believe in the sanctity of human life, no matter how ugly or disgusting it gets!"  (He was talking about marriage.)

 

And thus we see the heroic in the ignored mundane

[stemelbow]

59 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I empathize with this young man's plight.  That said, about 10 percent of life is about what happens to us, while 90 percent of it is about how we respond to what happens to us.  I get the urge to say, "Forget it!  Chuck it all!  I'm done!  I haven't had very good luck (good fortune, many blessings, frame it however you want) in this life; maybe that'll change in the next!"  I really do.  I'm not necessarily judging this young man.  His plight and his fate are between him and his Savior.  I'll let them work it out.

That said, I can either (1)(a) bemoan, eternally, the fact that I seem to have attracted the collective indifference of the fairer gender in its entirety ("Tsk-tsk-tsk!  Not the same thing, Ken!  You're not gay!" OK.  Except functionally, with the chances I have of getting married in this life at this point, it pretty much is); or (1)(b) Say, "Sole possession of the remote control; the ability (subject to other constraints) to come, to go, and to do as I please; to eat what I want, when I want; to do or to watch what I want, when I want, without having to worry about what she will think of me for eating it, watching it, or doing it," and so on.  Is the latter a poor substitute for finding The One?  Yeah, maybe, but I'm a pragmatist: I'll take what I can get: if I can't find anyone who truly can see what she's looking at, not my problem.

I can either (2)(a) bemoan the fact that my most expensive degree isn't likely to turn into a career and is, instead, likely to remain a very expensive hobby, along with bemoaning the fact that I'm now making $0.95 an hour more than I was making nearly 20 years ago when I left a similar job and then finally decided to pursue that degree ... and now am back doing essentially the same thing; or, I can (2)(b) say, "Yeah, it sucks.  No, it's not what I envisioned doing with my life.  Yeah, I hope to God I don't have to do it much longer (will someone, somewhere please hire me to do something else?!!").  But at least I have a job; if nothing else, it does pay the bills!  And hey!  $0.95 an hour more is $0.95 an hour more!  At this rate, in 20 years, I'll be making a whole ... $12.95 an hour!"

And so on.

Again, I'm not unsympathetic, but if someone is looking (through the wrong end of the binoculars) for reasons to chuck it all, guess what one is likely to find?  And if one is looking for reasons to stick around (or at least, is willing to question whether the images he sees while looking through the wrong end of the binoculars accurately reflect reality), guess what one is likely to find?  To borrow and to slightly alter something attributed to the infamous, inimitable Major Frank Burns of M*A*S*H, "I believe in the sanctity of human life, no matter how ugly or disgusting it gets!"  (He was talking about marriage.)

 

nevermind

Edited July 22, 2016 by stemelbow

[Tacenda]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Odd that you somehow made this about you. 

I tend to do this...

I think Kenngo is going through some struggles too. 

[Johnnie Cake]

I had a cousin who took his life.  He too was gay.  His last words to his mother were "Mom I just can't live like this any more"  He was torn between his love for his church and his need for authenticity, companionship and love.  I can't even begin to understand the pain and conflict he must have been living in...words can't begin to express the living hell this must have been for him.

He was a handsome, talented, compassionate man who loved the church, his family yet had been born gay.  I know that during his short life he struggled to find balance between his desires and the standards of his church...to the best of my knowledge he was never able to find this balance. it tore him apart.

I don't blame the church for his choice to end his live... but he was dealt a poor hand by the church.  A life of isolation and celibacy...an option no hetro here would accept I might add. His desires to be loved and have companionship were evidently stronger than his desires to live the law of chastity...but knowing this I do find it sad that he had to make that kind of choice...a choice no one but the LDS gay community is ask to make.

He died a year before Marriage equality became the law of the land...while nothing but a change in policy from the church could make that a path for our gay LDS brothers and sisters...I've often wondered had he just hung on a little longer would it have made a difference.  But I don't think so...being a believer...the divide was just too great between his life style and the expectations of the church he loved...and he chose death because he just couldn't find a means to bridge that chasm that gave him so much pain.

Each of us here can theorize what it must be like for a believing Gay members of the LDS church...but the reality is we have no idea of the pain, self loathing, cognitive dissonance and personal challenges of being a gay Mormon.  I just wish that everyone was allowed the freedom to live authentically and be who they were born to be.

Edited July 22, 2016 by Johnnie Cake

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, Johnnie Cake said:

I had a cousin who took his life.  He too was gay.  His last words to his mother were "Mom I just can't live like this any more"  He was torn between his love for his church and his need for companionship and love.  I can't even begin to understand the pain and conflict he must have been living in...words can't begin to express the living hell this must have been for him.

He was a handsome, talented, compassionate man who loved the church, his family yet had been born gay.  I know that during his short life he struggled to find balance between his desires and the standards of his church...to the best of my knowledge he was never able to find this balance. it tore him apart.

I don't blame the church for his choice to end his live... but he was dealt a poor hand by the church.  A life of isolation and celibacy...an option no hetro here would accept I might add. His desires to be loved and have companionship were evidently stronger than his desires to live the law of chastity...but knowing this I do find it sad that he had to make that kind of choice...a choice no one but the LDS gay community is ask to make.

He died a year before Marriage equality became the law of the land...while nothing but a change in policy from the church could make that a path for our gay LDS brothers and sisters...I've often wondered had he just hung on a little longer would it have made a difference.  But I don't think so...being a believer...the divide was just too great between his life style and the expectations of the church he loved...and he chose death because he just couldn't find a means to bridge that chasm that gave him so much pain.

Sorry for your loss

[jkwilliams]

36 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I tend to do this...

I think Kenngo is going through some struggles too. 

Yeah, I do this, too, to a fault. Did it in this thread, in fact. 

We all have our struggles, and sometimes it seems impossible to look on the bright side. Heck, sometimes, it's impossible to even see a bright side. We don't really see it coming, but when we get to the point at which all we see is our own pain, it's pretty damned hard to take a step back and try and put things in perspective. I can't imagine being in Ken's situation, but I'm glad he has a good attitude about it. 

[Kenngo1969]

Quote

Odd that somehow you made this about you.

Yes!  That's me! I'm exceedingly odd. I'm the center of my own (infinitesimally small) universe. I subscribe to dozens of periodicals and scour them daily, solely for any mention of my name. Simultaneously, my eyes are glued to a bank of televisions, each of which is tuned to a respective 24-hour news outlet for the same purpose! Self-centered, solely self-interested, completely self-absorbed! Careful, though. if I were you, I wouldn't get too close: I'm a veritable black hole, and if you get sucked in, you will cease to exist!

Unlike the rest of you, who apparently are capable of considering infinite permutations of infinite situations from infinite points of view (and, hence, can readily put yourselves precisely into the shoes of the young man whose situation we are discussing so as to understand exactly what he felt), I, alas, lack that ability: I, by contrast, can only speak to my own experience, which is what I was doing in the foregoing post.  I failed to realize how completely irrelevant it is.

Silly me. I thought this was a discussion board. I didn't know that I had wandered into a heretofore unknown (to me, at least) sub-forum called Stemelbow's Echo Chamber. Now that I've been apprised of the existence of Stemelbow's Echo Chamber, I will be much more circumspect about my participation henceforth.

My apologies.