Devotion and Despair: The lonely struggle of a gay Mormon

[USU78]

3 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

In many Muslims countries it is illegal for women to show their hair. In many countries it is illegal for a 10 year old that was raped to have an abortion. In many countries gays are executed. Religion seriously needs to stay out of politics! especially if it is tax-exempt! 

If you only have religious reasons for a vote, it is best to stay out. Remember, Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world". Just live and let live! 

How is it your business what somebody else's motivation is/motivations are for voting?  Were you, perhaps, elected or appointed as Voter Motivation Tsar?

[TheSkepticChristian]

48 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Then stop saying Mormons, either individually or corporately, should be prohibited from participating in the public square.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT!  YOU ARE MAKING FALSE ACCUSATIONS! IT'S BULL!! \

Quote

EDITED 

In many Muslims countries it is illegal for women to show their hair. In many countries it is illegal for a 10 year old that was raped to have an abortion. In many countries gays are executed. Religion seriously needs to stay out of politics! especially if it is tax-exempt!

If you only have religious reasons for a political position, it is best not to vote for your position. Remember, Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world". Just live and let live!

 

Edited July 25, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[USU78]

2 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

What they think and what they want in the political arena can be voiced by their individual votes..or participation that has nothing to do with the church.  They have their own minds and they don't need the approval of Elders to vote their own conscience.  I don't mind individual participation..but not as a corporation of the church. 

Please to demonstrate:  (a) that the Church votes as a corporation; (b) that an Elders [sic] approval is required for a Mormon to vote; and/or (c) that you or anybody else has the right to prohibit "participation that has [something] to do with the church."

[USU78]

Just now, TheSkepticChristian said:

I AM NOT SAYING THAT!  YOU ARE MAKING FALSE ACCUSATIONS! IT'S BULL!! 

Then explain what the parameters are of permitted Mormon participation in the public square in your universe.

[Jeanne]

2 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Please to demonstrate:  (a) that the Church votes as a corporation; (b) that an Elders [sic] approval is required for a Mormon to vote; and/or (c) that you or anybody else has the right to prohibit "participation that has [something] to do with the church."

Prop 8 was a good example of people going out and participating in something that was relatively a political request of the church.  That shouldn't have been.  Now..if a mormon wants to do it as an individual ...or not...that is best.  I just think people should think for themselves and not the church speaking for them. 

[TheSkepticChristian]

11 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Then explain what the parameters are of permitted Mormon participation in the public square in your universe.

I NEVER SAID MORMONS CAN'T PARTICIPATED IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE!!!! STOP MAKING FALSE ACCUSATIONS! 

THAT'S IT! I AM GOING TO IGNORE YOU WITH THE IGNORE OPTION 

It is clear you don't understand anything I say, You are wasting my time, 

Edited July 25, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[Calm]

Off topic into whetheror not the Church as an organization should get involved in politics, please desist.  Opening Poster request if you politely desist/demand if you are considering not to do so.

[Gray]

16 minutes ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

I AM NOT SAYING THAT!  YOU ARE MAKING FALSE ACCUSATIONS! IT'S BULL!! \

 

Okay, what if someone has bigoted views that aren't motivated by religious beliefs? Are they allowed to get involved in politics?

I don't get what the difference would be what the motivation for the belief was. 

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Gray said:

Okay, what if someone has bigoted views that aren't motivated by religious beliefs? Are they allowed to get involved in politics?

I don't get what the difference would be what the motivation for the belief was. 

Not a bad question, please take it elsewhere.

[TheSkepticChristian]

24 minutes ago, Gray said:

Okay, what if someone has bigoted views that aren't motivated by religious beliefs? Are they allowed to get involved in politics?

I am talking about tax-exempt churches, not individuals. 

For individuals I said, "If you only have religious reasons for a political position, it is best not to vote for your position" 

Same applies to anyone that has a political position without evidence or good reasons. 

I am saying it is "best" I didn't say "aren't allowed".  

Edit:

I just read that Calm doesn't want this topic here, so I am out! 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2016 by TheSkepticChristian

[USU78]

38 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Prop 8 was a good example of people going out and participating in something that was relatively a political request of the church.  That shouldn't have been.  Now..if a mormon wants to do it as an individual ...or not...that is best.  I just think people should think for themselves and not the church speaking for them. 

So  ...  and please correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth and not just recapitulating what you mean  ...  Mormons should never say "No" to homosexuals' political demands?  Or just those demands? 

I am working on the assumption that, had the Church supported the "no on 8" crowd, you would have been just fine with it.  And, thus, your position is ad hoc and not principled.

I likewise just read Calm's request, and, accordingly, I am out as well.

Edited July 25, 2016 by USU78

[Robert F. Smith]

16 hours ago, california boy said:

Oh I never knew that. I.thought we were promised happiness on earth too. Am I rare in finding happiness here

Only a small percentage of humanity has ever found happiness in this life.  For most, life has been "nasty, brutish, and short."  Those of us in the privileged modern West often forget that.

[Calm]

Thank you, USU, for starting a new thread to cover the off topic conversation.  For those wanting to continue that conversation, go here:

 

[thatjimguy]

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I'm not persuaded that LDS thinking does drive people to suicide.

Critics cite high suicide rates in Utah. The fact of the matter is, the high rate seems to have more to do with high altitude than anything else -- so much so that the high-altitude mountain states are dubbed by some psychologists as "the suicide belt." Thing is, Utah, with it's dense population of Mormons, has lower rates than surrounding states.

Well, I was talking about the ones that do commit suicide, or at the very least live a life of depression because of what they have been taught as LDS. Just trying to get a fix on what that would be.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, thatjimguy said:

Well, I was talking about the ones that do commit suicide, or at the very least live a life of depression because of what they have been taught as LDS. Just trying to get a fix on what that would be.

That might be akin to trying to figure out how many freshwater rivers spring from saltwater lakes and why this happens.  One needs to first demonstrate it happens.  If one cannot prove that it occurs, then the question of how many or why may be nonsenical.

[Calm]

Finishing the thought...

Suicide has been highly coorelated to substance abuse and criminal activity as well as mental illness.  Religion usually is negatively coorelated with suicide and appears to have a protective effect.  Even for a group for whom suicide appears to be coorelated with religion, LGBT, removing from the religious community appears to increase, not decrease risk of suicide.

It appears to be all rather complicated in figuring out actual causes of suicide.  To suggest we cantease out what beliefs of LDS contribute to raised suicide risks at this point is invalid, imo.

[thatjimguy]

22 minutes ago, Calm said:

That might be akin to trying to figure out how many freshwater rivers spring from saltwater lakes and why this happens.  One needs to first demonstrate it happens.  If one cannot prove that it occurs, then the question of how many or why may be nonsenical.

So you don't think that some people commit suicide or life a life of depression due to what they have been taught as an LDS?

[Calm]

Official LDS teachings?  I find it unlikely.  They may hear them and then misinterpret or they may be taught false doctrine and then due to depression or some other emotional or mental disorder latch onto an idea and through obsession, etc. The idea twists their thinking until suicide becomes a reasonable consideration.

I think if there were LDS teachings that they themselves contributed significantly to suicides, we would be having significantly more of them.

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

In many Muslims countries it is illegal for women to show their hair. In many countries it is illegal for a 10 year old that was raped to have an abortion. In many countries gays are executed. Religion seriously needs to stay out of politics! especially if it is tax-exempt! 

If you only have religious reasons for a political position, it is best not to vote. Remember, Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world". Just live and let live! 

 

And let people like you run the country. No thanks.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, TheSkepticChristian said:

I am talking about tax-exempt churches, not individuals. 

For individuals I said, "If you only have religious reasons for a political position, it is best not to vote for your position" 

Same applies to anyone that has a political position without evidence or good reasons. 

I am saying it is "best" I didn't say "aren't allowed".  

Edit:

I just read that Calm doesn't want this topic here, so I am out! 

 

 

But if you have to have good reasons or evidence to vote who would be able to vote. Five people? Me and a few others? Wouldn't be fair.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Only a small percentage of humanity has ever found happiness in this life.  For most, life has been "nasty, brutish, and short."  Those of us in the privileged modern West often forget that.

I am not convinced the privileged modern west has a higher percentage of happy people.

[thatjimguy]

53 minutes ago, Calm said:

Official LDS teachings?  I find it unlikely.  They may hear them and then misinterpret or they may be taught false doctrine and then due to depression or some other emotional or mental disorder latch onto an idea and through obsession, etc. The idea twists their thinking until suicide becomes a reasonable consideration.

I think if there were LDS teachings that they themselves contributed significantly to suicides, we would be having significantly more of them.

Yeah, I wouldn't see it either, although I can see people interpreting some stuff wrong.

My original question really asked about this as it pertains to LDS society, not really the church itself.

So, any insights?

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

I am not convinced the privileged modern west has a higher percentage of happy people.

If you are talking about "civilization and its discontents," or our "quiet desperation," I'm with you.  Most of the rest of the world wants to come here, however, precisely because of the random violence and brutality within their own cultures.  We may not be happy, but they think that we are, and perception is everything.

[rockpond]

An example of official teachings that I imagine are tough to hear as a gay member:

"Every priesthood effort and every priesthood ordinance is intended to help Heavenly Father’s children be changed through the Atonement of Jesus Christ to become members of perfected family units. It follows that “the great work of every man is to believe the gospel, to keep the commandments, and to create and perfect an eternal family unit,” and to help others do the same.
        Since that is true, everything we do should have celestial marriage as its focus and purpose. That means we must strive to be sealed to an eternal companion in the temple of God. We must also encourage others to make and keep the covenants that bind a husband and wife together, with their family, in this life and in the world to come".

Pres Eyring, April 2016 Priesthood Session "Eternal Families" (emphasis added)

[Storm Rider]

15 minutes ago, rockpond said:

An example of official teachings that I imagine are tough to hear as a gay member:

"Every priesthood effort and every priesthood ordinance is intended to help Heavenly Father’s children be changed through the Atonement of Jesus Christ to become members of perfected family units. It follows that “the great work of every man is to believe the gospel, to keep the commandments, and to create and perfect an eternal family unit,” and to help others do the same.
        Since that is true, everything we do should have celestial marriage as its focus and purpose. That means we must strive to be sealed to an eternal companion in the temple of God. We must also encourage others to make and keep the covenants that bind a husband and wife together, with their family, in this life and in the world to come".

Pres Eyring, April 2016 Priesthood Session "Eternal Families" (emphasis added)

Sometimes truth is hard to hear.  What makes it hard?  We are challenged by those things where our faith is weak.  Should the Church stop teaching anything/everything that can be seen as difficult or challenging? 

If I know I am doing what my Father in Heaven asks of me will I rejoice in truth or will I fight against it or perceive it as a chore or something difficult?  It all depends on where our heart is.