Works base faith? No!! By grace.

[Doctrine 612]

So over the past two months I have been talking with a Christian church group about our faith and they seem to enjoy it, but the other day a member of there church said that Mormons teach a works base faith.

now I have heard this statement before from non members to even some miss informed members.

i have always believed that Iam saved by grace and that my works of righteousness will not save me but will strengthen my faith in Christ and in is grace.

the members asked me then why would some people have this miss conception, the best answer I could give on the spot was "when you teach s child, you say clean your room then you can go out and play, finish your dinner then you can have a treat. We teach do something then there is a reward. But we forget when we become men we must put away childish things, or ideas, the law was a school master but now we're not under the law but under grace.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Doctrine 612

[SeekingUnderstanding]

9 minutes ago, Doctrine 612 said:

So over the past two months I have been talking with a Christian church group about our faith and they seem to enjoy it, but the other day a member of there church said that Mormons teach a works base faith.

now I have heard this statement before from non members to even some miss informed members.

i have always believed that Iam saved by grace and that my works of righteousness will not save me but will strengthen my faith in Christ and in is grace.

the members asked me then why would some people have this miss conception, the best answer I could give on the spot was "when you teach s child, you say clean your room then you can go out and play, finish your dinner then you can have a treat. We teach do something then there is a reward. But we forget when we become men we must put away childish things, or ideas, the law was a school master but now we're not under the law but under grace.

 

 

I've always wondered if the act of declaring and accepting my salvation by grace only is in and of itself "a work."

[Storm Rider]

In many ways this is a chicken and egg type of conversation.  How is man saved?  By the Grace of God.  If a man is saved how does his act and how is he judged?  Man is judged by his acts and if he is saved he will love Jesus Christ.  If he loves Jesus Christ he will keep his commandments.  What is the responsibility of a disciple of Jesus Christ?  To follow Jesus, to keep his commandments, and to seek after him.  

Are works present in each and every life or individual that is a disciple of Jesus Christ?  Absolutely.  How is man saved?  By the Grace of Jesus Christ.  Can a disciple of of Jesus be saved without works?  Having faith is a work; belief is a work; hope is a work.  Can I be saved without works?  No, a disciple must express faith, a work, to be saved.  By what power is a man saved?  By the Grace of God.  

[Glenn101]

7 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

In many ways this is a chicken and egg type of conversation.  How is man saved?  By the Grace of God.  If a man is saved how does his act and how is he judged?  Man is judged by his acts and if he is saved he will love Jesus Christ.  If he loves Jesus Christ he will keep his commandments.  What is the responsibility of a disciple of Jesus Christ?  To follow Jesus, to keep his commandments, and to seek after him.  

Are works present in each and every life or individual that is a disciple of Jesus Christ?  Absolutely.  How is man saved?  By the Grace of Jesus Christ.  Can a disciple of of Jesus be saved without works?  Having faith is a work; belief is a work; hope is a work.  Can I be saved without works?  No, a disciple must express faith, a work, to be saved.  By what power is a man saved?  By the Grace of God.  

 

The equation must be balanced. Take away either one and the result is less than salvation. I don't care about the semantics.

 

Glenn

[3DOP]

I didn't vote as a non-LDS, but I would suggest that it might help some who know that works are important to consider that one may believe that any works that are salvific come because of the grace of God. It isn't necessarily grace OR works. It isn't necessarily faith OR works. As a Catholic, it is faith and works and all by the grace of God. "Without me you can do nothing," says the Saviour, (pertaining to the attainment of eternal life according to context). But with Christ, we can do things that are impossible on our own! This seems compatible with LDS thought on the subject as far as I have been able to discern.

[JAHS]

Ultimately we are saved by grace; not by anything we do. As Elder Oaks once said. 

"The commandments, ordinances, and covenants of the gospel are not a list of deposits required to be made in some heavenly account. The gospel of Jesus Christ is a plan that shows us how to become what our Heavenly Father desires us to become." (Dallin H. Oaks, “The Challenge to Become,” New Era, Aug. 2002, 12) 

However in order to become the kind of person that can abide a celestial life we must obey commandments and live the gospel.

[CV75]

I’d say all of the above.

God’s grace saves us. God’s work saves us. They are much the same thing (“Grace is divine help and strength that we receive through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.” –https://www.lds.org/youth/learn/yw/atonement/grace?lang=eng ), so both equally.

There is no “but” – grace saves (us true), and works increase faith (true); faith increases works, knowledge and all the other divine attributes belong in there as well. The works-and-grace dynamo operates along the same lines as the faith-and-knowledge dynamo.

[JLHPROF]

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
2 Nephi 25: 23 For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

 

[Guest]

Recently I had two gentlemen show up at my home, who asked if my salvation was assured? I replied yes, then another question; why do you say yes? I then told them I was a child of God, then again; why to you say that? It became very clear to me that no answer would do until we got down to the real question, that being; to what Church do you belong? When I told them they replied with the same statement that the OP was addressing, they said that we are a "work based faith". I asked them if I appeared a fool to them, that they would suppose that I could work my way into heaven? No, no they exclaimed...so I said gave them two hours to tell me what their message really was. That was as long as I could endure the many insults and accusations. "We are saved through Grace and not through works least any man boast". Without the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, nothing any man could ever do would save him. With that bombshell, using the scriptures as we are commanded, left them nowhere to run or hide behind their insults to me, our Church and our founders. 

[Buckeye]

None of the above. You can't separate works from grace. That's why I hate the typical LDS metaphor of a row boat with two oars. The metaphor should be that both oars are work, and any paddling that's done is a reflection of the person's faith that paddling where get them somewhere they want to go. 

The best metaphor is Alma's seed. Putting the seed in the ground takes work. And doing so evidences faith by the person that the planting will bear good fruit. No where in the process can you point to some action and say "that part is faith" or "that part is work." ALL of the actions reflect both work and faith. 

Another example would be a quarterback throwing a football to a receiver. Clearly he does so with work. And just as clearly he does so trusting that the receiver will catch the ball and that a defender will not intercept it. There's no way to separate the "work" from the "faith" in the throw. They're BOTH fully part of that action.

 

Edited April 5, 2016 by Buckeye

[Storm Rider]

37 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

I didn't vote as a non-LDS, but I would suggest that it might help some who know that works are important to consider that one may believe that any works that are salvific come because of the grace of God. It isn't necessarily grace OR works. It isn't necessarily faith OR works. As a Catholic, it is faith and works and all by the grace of God. "Without me you can do nothing," says the Saviour, (pertaining to the attainment of eternal life according to context). But with Christ, we can do things that are impossible on our own! This seems compatible with LDS thought on the subject as far as I have been able to discern.

This manner of teaching is quite common in many Catholic theologians, if not all of them.  There is wisdom in putting all glory and faith in God. It aids in keeping man more humble and acknowledges the hand of God in all things.  Thanks for the comment.  

[Ahab]

One could ask if there are any conditions to God's grace or how graceful God chooses to be when and if and however God chooses to be graceful. 

I think of God's grace as his kindness, but he can also be a very angry God too.

God's grace has a full spectrum of intensity, from just above angry to as kind as any person like him can be.

[Guest]

46 minutes ago, Buckeye said:

None of the above. You can't separate works from grace. That's why I hate the typical LDS metaphor of a row boat with two oars. The metaphor should be that both oars are work, and any paddling that's done is a reflection of the person's faith that paddling where get them somewhere they want to go. 

 

 

You are correct, Grace and Works are two sides of the same coin, and it is that coin that I'd required to gain entrance into th kingdom of God and Heaven. My 2 cents anyway. 

[Robert F. Smith]

What is truly remarkable about this poll is that not one respondent claims that salvation is by works only.  After all the lies told about Mormon theology by evangelicals and others, how can that be?  There does not even appear to be a scintilla of support for the old claim that Mormons believe in works-based salvation.

However, as Saint James pointed out (to the anger of Martin Luther), James 2:14-26 in NKJV:

Quote

¹⁴ What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? ¹⁵ If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, ¹⁶ and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? ¹⁷ Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

¹⁸ But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. ¹⁹ You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! ²⁰ But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? ²¹ Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? ²² Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? ²³ And the Scripture was fulfilled which says,“Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. ²⁴ You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

²⁵ Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

²⁶ For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

What angers the evangelicals is that "faith without works is dead as a body without a soul."  That is why they continually lie about us.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Robert F. Smith

[consiglieri]

Mormons are saved by doing what their priesthood leaders tell them to do.

 

 

[JLHPROF]

Salvation comes from being "saved" from death, the grave, or in other words, receiving a resurrection.
As long as there is any sin on us we cannot be saved because the "wages of sin are death".

So the price has to be paid for those sins.
Christ has paid the price, therefore at his grace we are saved unless we reject his sacrifice on our behalf completely.  Then we are perdition, or lost, and we don't even know concerning their fate.  They may be resurrected, but they may or may not retain their bodies.  But every knee will bow and acknowledge that he is the Christ, the only one who can save.

But there is also the more specific type of "saved" which is saved in God/Christ's kingdom, the Celestial.
Entrance to that kingdom requires the work of baptism as described in Mark 16:16, but at the same time requires grace for the other sins we cannot pay for ourselves.

So salvation comes by grace primarily since we cannot pay for all our own sins and would remain in the grave without Christ.
But salvation in God's kingdom requires specific works.  And exaltation in the highest level of God's kingdom requires even MORE works.

1. Saved = resurrected by the grace of God through Jesus Christ and being unable to deny that he IS the Christ.
2. Saved in God's kingdom = resurrected by the grace of God through Jesus Christ AND agreeing to follow him, not just accepting him signified by baptism.
3. Exalted in God's kingdom = resurrected by the grace of God through Jesus Christ AND having demonstrated a willingness to follow every law, ordinance, and commandment no matter what other consideration.
 

If only we'd stop using "saved/salvation" interchangeably for all three.

[pogi]

Here is how I would put it:

Works by grace + faith by grace = grace upon grace to grace. 

Anything less would be a rejection of His grace. 

 

 

[halconero]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Salvation comes from being "saved" from death, the grave, or in other words, receiving a resurrection.
As long as there is any sin on us we cannot be saved because the "wages of sin are death".

So the price has to be paid for those sins.
Christ has paid the price, therefore at his grace we are saved unless we reject his sacrifice on our behalf completely.  Then we are perdition, or lost, and we don't even know concerning their fate.  They may be resurrected, but they may or may not retain their bodies.  But every knee will bow and acknowledge that he is the Christ, the only one who can save.

But there is also the more specific type of "saved" which is saved in God/Christ's kingdom, the Celestial.
Entrance to that kingdom requires the work of baptism as described in Mark 16:16, but at the same time requires grace for the other sins we cannot pay for ourselves.

So salvation comes by grace primarily since we cannot pay for all our own sins and would remain in the grave without Christ.
But salvation in God's kingdom requires specific works.  And exaltation in the highest level of God's kingdom requires even MORE works.

1. Saved = resurrected by the grace of God through Jesus Christ and being unable to deny that he IS the Christ.
2. Saved in God's kingdom = resurrected by the grace of God through Jesus Christ AND agreeing to follow him, not just accepting him signified by baptism.
3. Exalted in God's kingdom = resurrected by the grace of God through Jesus Christ AND having demonstrated a willingness to follow every law, ordinance, and commandment no matter what other consideration.
 

If only we'd stop using "saved/salvation" interchangeably for all three.

I largely agree, but would add that the work of these ordinances is underlied by the atonement. Baptism is just getting dunked were it not for the grace imputed by Christ in this ordinance. The sacrament would just be a Sunday snack were it not blessed and sanctified unto the souls of those who eat of it via the atonement. Both symbolically and literally in the endowment we may put our hand forth to receive his ordinances, but it is him who graciously bestows them on us and leads us by the hand into the Celestial Kingdom.

Our work is to reach out in the hopes of mercy, and continuously grasp the hand reaching back as it leads us along the path of righteousness.

[JarMan]

It's unfortunate that some evangelicals use this topic to drive a wedge between them and other Christians. To me it seems like we are much closer on this issue than some people would like to think. One thought that has helped me understand this issue a little better is the idea that our good works should not be performed with the expectation of some sort of reward. If we think we are getting "credit" for doing good I suggest we need to change our thinking. Let's do good for its own sake. 

[filovirus]

We are saved by the faithfulness to the covenants we make with Our Father in Heaven, none of which would actually save us without Christ's atonement. In other words: we believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Faith vs works is just misdirection.

[Freedom]

None of them reflect the mormon faith. I say non of the above. 

[The Nehor]

I am finding the whole faith and works thing dull. From now on I am saved by magic so I can dodge the whole thing.

[halconero]

1 hour ago, JarMan said:

It's unfortunate that some evangelicals use this topic to drive a wedge between them and other Christians. To me it seems like we are much closer on this issue than some people would like to think. One thought that has helped me understand this issue a little better is the idea that our good works should not be performed with the expectation of some sort of reward. If we think we are getting "credit" for doing good I suggest we need to change our thinking. Let's do good for its own sake. 

My favourite explanation of this is found in King Benjamin's discourse on the unworthy servant.

[Doctrine 612]

Also on the meeting they asked me if I were to die right now and Christ were to ask why should I let you in heaven? I said because of your sacrifice you made for me.

the anti guy in the group got mad and started to call me names, but the pastor of the church defended me. It was nice to share the gospel.