Meadowchik Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 I've heard people say that the new policy means that gay couples are now no longer welcome at Church. Am I missing something here? Is there some policy that apostates are not welcome to participate in Church services? I know I've heard people excommunicated for apostasy saying they never stopped attending church, so something seems off. And, on the subject on policy and being forbade from the services...IS there a policy about who is allowed to stay and who is asked to leave the building? I would imagine that some behaviors would definitely not be tolerated, like yelling or constant intentional disruption of meetings, or people who endanger attendees. Please, tell me if you know!
Bob Crockett Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 Everyone is welcome. If a stake wants to exclude someone from meetings because of disruption short of the need to call the cops the stake has to get FP approval. I've been through this before when a prostitute wanted to attend and would inject polite comments constantly about a feminine fertility priesthood hidden in the church.
Storm Rider Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 I have never heard of any situation of an excommunicated member being unwelcome regardless of the nature of their sins. If a person consistently causes a turmoil at church services they MAY be asked to not return until such time that they are able to more align their behavior with that of the congregation and stop making a disturbance. Best of my knowledge, but then you only have my limited knowledge. 1
Popular Post california boy Posted December 7, 2015 Popular Post Posted December 7, 2015 I think all can attend church services whether they have been excommunicated or called apostates. Whether they are welcome or not probably depends on the people of the ward. 6
Tacenda Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 http://www.religionnews.com/2015/12/02/twice-rejected-mormon-family-faces-painful-decision-resignation/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Twice%20rejected%20Mormon%20family%20faces%20painful%20decision%20about%20resignation&utm_content=Twice%20rejected%20Mormon%20family%20faces%20painful%20decision%20about%20resignation+CID_6e524d82a9972e814fccd73abc1dd944&utm_source=Campaign%20Monitor&utm_term=VIEW%20STORY%20AT%20WWWRELIGIONNEWSCOM California Boy posted about this couple and their children. I think they can go to church but after the new policy, they probably won't feel near as welcomed.
Duncan Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 I have never heard of anyone being banned from Church. I do know a guy who was exed but who got some girls pregnant was kept an eye on at an activity and I know a girl who was kicked out of the Temple for getting into a fight, but she is able to go now. Whether or not she does I have no idea
RevTestament Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 Here is the official church position on the matter: https://www.lds.org/church/news/church-leaders-counsel-members-after-supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-decision?lang=eng those with same sex attraction are welcome to church services so long as they obey the same rules as everyone else and respect the sanctity of the services. Those engaged in same sex acts, however, cannot receive the covenants offered in the temple nor be baptized. The latter would be quite injurious to their salvation. 1
Meadowchik Posted December 7, 2015 Author Posted December 7, 2015 Thank you, RevTestament for the link. Here's the relevant quote: "...all visitors are welcome to our chapels and premises so long as they respect our standards of conduct while there." https://www.lds.org/church/news/church-leaders-counsel-members-after-supreme-court-same-sex-marriage-decision?lang=eng Since it doesn't have a caveat for apostate visitors, it looks like the First presidency still counsels that individuals are not unwelcome to church for being apostates. Leadership is being directed to welcome all.
Popular Post rockpond Posted December 7, 2015 Popular Post Posted December 7, 2015 51 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I've heard people say that the new policy means that gay couples are now no longer welcome at Church. Am I missing something here? Is there some policy that apostates are not welcome to participate in Church services? I know I've heard people excommunicated for apostasy saying they never stopped attending church, so something seems off. And, on the subject on policy and being forbade from the services...IS there a policy about who is allowed to stay and who is asked to leave the building? I would imagine that some behaviors would definitely not be tolerated, like yelling or constant intentional disruption of meetings, or people who endanger attendees. Please, tell me if you know! Perhaps there is a difference between being welcome as a matter of policy and feeling welcome in reality. Excommunicated members cannot pray, speak, teach, or serve in callings. That makes it difficult. Generally, there is a path back to full fellowship. For a gay married couple, now deemed apostate and required to be excommunicated, the only path involves divorce from their spouse. All of that likely makes it difficult to feel welcome even if one technically is welcome. I think this policy calls on us as members to be even more sensitive, more aware, and more loving. We'll need to purposefully reach out to gay members and go out of our way to help them feel welcome. 10
Meadowchik Posted December 7, 2015 Author Posted December 7, 2015 4 minutes ago, rockpond said: Perhaps there is a difference between being welcome as a matter of policy and feeling welcome in reality. Excommunicated members cannot pray, speak, teach, or serve in callings. That makes it difficult. Generally, there is a path back to full fellowship. For a gay married couple, now deemed apostate and required to be excommunicated, the only path involves divorce from their spouse. All of that likely makes it difficult to feel welcome even if one technically is welcome. I think this policy calls on us as members to be even more sensitive, more aware, and more loving. We'll need to purposefully reach out to gay members and go out of our way to help them feel welcome. I can agree to that. And, I can see this working two ways, in the future, although there are surely more possibilities: connections between Church members with gay couples will still be encouraged by the Church and will generate more understanding, whether the policy remains or whether it changes. 1
Sleeper Cell Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 42 minutes ago, rockpond said: Perhaps there is a difference between being welcome as a matter of policy and feeling welcome in reality. Excommunicated members cannot pray, speak, teach, or serve in callings. That makes it difficult. Generally, there is a path back to full fellowship. For a gay married couple, now deemed apostate and required to be excommunicated, the only path involves divorce from their spouse. All of that likely makes it difficult to feel welcome even if one technically is welcome. I think this policy calls on us as members to be even more sensitive, more aware, and more loving. We'll need to purposefully reach out to gay members and go out of our way to help them feel welcome. Fair enough. BTW, should gay couples try to be more sensitive and loving to those members who are trying to be welcoming, but perhaps are not as sensitive as they should be?
Tacenda Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Sleeper Cell said: Fair enough. BTW, should gay couples try to be more sensitive and loving to those members who are trying to be welcoming, but perhaps are not as sensitive as they should be? I'm sure that is part of their everyday existence, pretty sure they are super good at taking those punches everyday. Edited December 7, 2015 by Tacenda 2
rockpond Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 6 minutes ago, Sleeper Cell said: Fair enough. BTW, should gay couples try to be more sensitive and loving to those members who are trying to be welcoming, but perhaps are not as sensitive as they should be? Yes. I think we all should acknowledge and respect sincere outreach. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 2 hours ago, rockpond said: ............................................................. Excommunicated members cannot pray, speak, teach, or serve in callings. .............................. ...................................................... That is technically correct. However, I know of at least one excommunicant who continues to play piano for her Relief Society meetings.
rockpond Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 2 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: That is technically correct. However, I know of at least one excommunicant who continues to play piano for her Relief Society meetings. That's great. And I know there are some exceptions. Likewise, we called one excommunicated member to serve as a scout leader with the knowledge that he was likely close to re-baptism. 1
mfbukowski Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 3 hours ago, Meadowchik said: I've heard people say that the new policy means that gay couples are now no longer welcome at Church. Am I missing something here? Is there some policy that apostates are not welcome to participate in Church services? I know I've heard people excommunicated for apostasy saying they never stopped attending church, so something seems off. And, on the subject on policy and being forbade from the services...IS there a policy about who is allowed to stay and who is asked to leave the building? I would imagine that some behaviors would definitely not be tolerated, like yelling or constant intentional disruption of meetings, or people who endanger attendees. Please, tell me if you know! Everyone is welcome absolutely. The guidelines always say that even people who are excommunicated are welcome and encouraged to attend church. Think about it. The church wants all people to repent and come to Christ. We are all sinners who need to repent and come to Christ and that includes people who ahve been excommunicated. I have been involved personally as a leader in many disciplinary councils in which people were excommunicated and the instructions always include an instruction to keep in touch with, and attend church. If people are violating church standards openly in church it might be another issue, if it could be construed as trying to make a statement - in effect preaching their values in opposition to church values, that of course would be another story. That is just plain rude and a violation of politeness. 2
Rivers Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 (edited) As far as I am aware, our church buildings still have "Visitor's Welcome" signs on them. But there is always room for improvement in helping everyone feel welcome. The church often gets accused of treating certain people as second class citizens. But with the church setting explicit standards for church membership, those who don't meet the standards for official membership aren't citizens at all. They are more like tourists we should welcome with open arms. Edited December 7, 2015 by Rivers 1
rongo Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 5 hours ago, Bob Crockett said: If a stake wants to exclude someone from meetings because of disruption short of the need to call the cops the stake has to get FP approval. I've been through this before . . . I'm not sure about this. Granted, this was from the mid 1990s, but our branch president on my mission forbade a crazy investigator from setting foot inside the church. He was propositioning multiple sisters (he believed that he was Jesus reincarnated and that women could not resist him --- and that he needed to oblige). After talking suggestively to his 2nd counselor's wife, he was told he could not enter. The police station was across the street from the church, and he tried to file a complaint upon being barred. The police ignored him. I think the whether the FP would be upset about local leaders acting on their own initiative would be on a case-by-case basis, and would depend on the circumstances. As far as the specific question of this thread, I think that the behavior of the overwhelming majority (really overwhelming) of gay people attending church wouldn't necessitate any "barring," and they would be more than welcome. The standard for anyone --- including those formally disciplined --- is "as long as their behavior is orderly." Interestingly, this has come up recently in my ward because a disciplined member strongly feels that he should be able to comment in class, and he pointed out that the handbook doesn't specifically say that ex'd/dis'd members can't participate in class. Both the stake president and I were surprised to find that it doesn't specifically say that they can't, and we told him that we would ask Salt Lake for clarification. Salt Lake got back, and the clarification was . . . whatever your bishop tells you.
Jeanne Posted December 7, 2015 Posted December 7, 2015 2 hours ago, rongo said: I'm not sure about this. Granted, this was from the mid 1990s, but our branch president on my mission forbade a crazy investigator from setting foot inside the church. He was propositioning multiple sisters (he believed that he was Jesus reincarnated and that women could not resist him --- and that he needed to oblige). After talking suggestively to his 2nd counselor's wife, he was told he could not enter. The police station was across the street from the church, and he tried to file a complaint upon being barred. The police ignored him. I think the whether the FP would be upset about local leaders acting on their own initiative would be on a case-by-case basis, and would depend on the circumstances. As far as the specific question of this thread, I think that the behavior of the overwhelming majority (really overwhelming) of gay people attending church wouldn't necessitate any "barring," and they would be more than welcome. The standard for anyone --- including those formally disciplined --- is "as long as their behavior is orderly." Interestingly, this has come up recently in my ward because a disciplined member strongly feels that he should be able to comment in class, and he pointed out that the handbook doesn't specifically say that ex'd/dis'd members can't participate in class. Both the stake president and I were surprised to find that it doesn't specifically say that they can't, and we told him that we would ask Salt Lake for clarification. Salt Lake got back, and the clarification was . . . whatever your bishop tells you. Oh!! Good answer! That made me laugh,
carbon dioxide Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) How could the church forbid someone attending a ward anyway. Visitors come and go all the time. How would one know if the visitor is question is even gay let alone in a gay marriage? Edited December 8, 2015 by carbon dioxide 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 10 hours ago, rongo said: I think the whether the FP would be upset about local leaders acting on their own initiative would be on a case-by-case basis, and would depend on the circumstances. A few years ago, we had a visitor to our ward stand up during the sacrament and start cursing Jesus. We didn't contact anyone; a couple of our members simply picked him up and physically carried him out. Quote Interestingly, this has come up recently in my ward because a disciplined member strongly feels that he should be able to comment in class, and he pointed out that the handbook doesn't specifically say that ex'd/dis'd members can't participate in class. As I've mentioned before, we have an excommunicated member who regularly attends my Gospel Principles class, and I encourage his participation by directing questions at him. His contributions to class are usually excellent. 1
Hamba Tuhan Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 (edited) 2 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: How would one know if the visitor is question is even gay let alone in a gay marriage? This. Any visitor to an LDS church who genuinely 'respects our standards of conduct while there' is not going to draw attention to him-/herself in a way that would identify her/him as an apostate of any variety. Edited December 8, 2015 by Hamba Tuhan
Meadowchik Posted December 8, 2015 Author Posted December 8, 2015 3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: How could the church forbid someone attending a ward anyway. Visitors come and go all the time. How would one know if the visitor is question is even gay let alone in a gay marriage? Yet, the policy of the Church goes further than that. It specifically says that ALL are welcome, not just the ones who we don't know well, but everyone, including those who we know are excommunicated. It's not a "don't ask, don't tell" scenario, to be clear. In other words, perhaps one helpful way to look at people is to assume they are imperfect and sinful and possibly wretchedly so, but that we are still called to love them in all we do, including welcoming them as much as can be done in Church. 1
Avatar4321 Posted December 8, 2015 Posted December 8, 2015 8 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: How could the church forbid someone attending a ward anyway. Visitors come and go all the time. How would one know if the visitor is question is even gay let alone in a gay marriage? We are having gaydar installed in all local meeting houses to warn us if anyone with homosexual tendencies enters. At least that's how some act. The fact is anyone is more than welcome to come and learn if they aren't trying to be a distraction and create scenes. If someone wants to come and worship with us, no matter what their sin may be, We will gladly them. But the key is they need to visit before we can welcome them. Until they show up, the claim that we aren't welcoming is unfounded. 1
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