Letter To A Ces Director Problematic

[Wiki Wonka]

That is why we need a variety of options on how to use it available.

Now if only I could learn to focus my time into helping organize it all rather then just coming up with ideas on what others should do, lol.

 

If you'd like a good laugh, I found this response to the latest FairMormon/CES Letter thing pretty funny:

 

zelphontheshelf.com/ fair-mormon-gives-more-maybe-technically-possible-points-to-refute-ces-letter/

 

(Not sure why they think that Dan Peterson was involved though...Perhaps he is secretly involved in everything!)

 

(Edited to remove the link in case it violates board rules to link to an ex-Mormon site)

Edited September 6, 2015 by Wiki Wonka

[Wiki Wonka]

Deleted duplicate post 

Edited September 6, 2015 by Wiki Wonka

[Robert F. Smith]

.....................................................................

.......................................Grant Hardy`s book is a favorite among the anti-Mormon, doubting crowd because of its brevity.  It suffers many of the same errors that CES Letter has.  Grant Hardy started out making it sound like he wanted to help the LDS Church and has evolved to being overtly hostile to the the Church.  

You mean Grant Palmer, whose book is filled with nonsense which fits anti-Mormon preconceptions.

 

Unlike Palmer, Grant Hardy is a major LDS scholar who writes some very deep stuff (I consider his wife Heather to be the true intellect of the family, and she should get more credit).

[Robert F. Smith]

When I read apologetic work, especially reviews/defenses against other content, I sometimes have to weed through the arrogant, condescending stuff to get to the meat of their argument.

I have to do the same thing with the CES letter.

Given the shallow and incompetent nature of much of the anti-Mormon propaganda, and the fact that it repeats the same mistakes made over a century ago, some Mormons who review the stuff ought to be excused for being impatient and sometimes abusive in their descriptions.  Sincere critics simply would never do that sort of thing.

[VideoGameJunkie]

I just read the CES letter. It shook me a lot. It'll take me awhile to gather myself and my thoughts and evaluate my faith and testimony.

[readstoomuch]

I just read the CES letter. It shook me a lot. It'll take me awhile to gather myself and my thoughts and evaluate my faith and testimony.

I hope not! Let us help you if it did.

[TheSkepticChristian]

I just read the CES letter. It shook me a lot. It'll take me awhile to gather myself and my thoughts and evaluate my faith and testimony.

 

LOL You can't be serious. The CES letter is a joke 

 

Perhaps too much sugar?

 

 

 

 

I hope not! Let us help you if it did.

 

He has a History

Edited September 6, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[carbon dioxide]

I just read the CES letter. It shook me a lot. It'll take me awhile to gather myself and my thoughts and evaluate my faith and testimony.

I would liken the CES letter to a virus.  If a person has never been exposed to this type of virus before, they can get more sick than those who have been exposed to similar viruses.  For people like me who has read enough anti-Mormon material over the years and studied things in more detail, I have built up a certain level of resistance to it.  The people who are most likely to get sick by this virus are people who give it too much credibility and are not patient enough to work through it and have not been exposed to it before.  How do you built up your immune system to this virus?  Get a testimony first.  Do the things you should do.  Do as the scriptures say and that is build your foundation on a rock.  Then slowly work yourself through it.  Don't expect to get all the answers in the next week or 6 months.  Be patient and in time you will be able to respond to the disinformation one at a time.  You may not get every issue resolved but a large majority can be solved.

Edited September 6, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[cinepro]

I would liken the CES letter to a virus.  If a person has never been exposed to this type of virus before, they can get more sick than those who have been exposed to similar viruses.  For people like me who has read enough anti-Mormon material over the years and studied things in more detail, I have built up a certain level of resistance to it.  The people who are most likely to get sick by this virus are people who give it too much credibility and are not patient enough to work through it and have not been exposed to it before.  How do you built up your immune system to this virus?  Get a testimony first.  Do the things you should do.  Do as the scriptures say and that is build your foundation on a rock.  Then slowly work yourself through it.  Don't expect to get all the answers in the next week or 6 months.  Be patient and in time you will be able to respond to the disinformation one at a time.  You may not get every issue resolved but a large majority can be solved.

 

To be fair, the "virus" analogy works just as well when applied to Mormonism.  Imagine a minister standing before his congregation and saying this:

 

"I would liken Mormonism to a virus.  If a person has never been exposed to this type of virus before, they can get more sick than those who have been exposed to similar viruses.  For people like me who has read enough Mormon material over the years and studied things in more detail, I have built up a certain level of resistance to it.  The people who are most likely to get sick by this virus are people who give it too much credibility and are not patient enough to work through it and have not been exposed to it before.  How do you built up your immune system to this virus?  Get a testimony of the Bible first.  Do the things you should do.  Do as the scriptures say and that is build your foundation on a rock.  Then slowly work yourself through it.  Don't expect to get all the answers in the next week or 6 months.  Be patient and in time you will be able to respond to the disinformation one at a time.  You may not get every issue resolved but a large majority can be solved."

[oremites]

To be fair, the "virus" analogy works just as well when applied to Mormonism.  Imagine a minister standing before his congregation and saying this:

 

And yet, the typical minister doesn't say that but directs people to the usual anti-mormon literature.  I wonder why that is.  Maybe because, in real life, that analogy doesn't work just as well when applied to Mormonism?

[Kevin Christensen]

So we can all agree that whatever people do, to respond in detail, or to principles, or at all, or ignore the critics, or just hug everyone because nothing is at stake, someone else will disagree and will have a story about how whatever any one did or didn't do offended them or someone they knew or heard about or imagined.

Several decades ago, for instance, Sam Taylor wrote a piece for Sunstone called "What I Would Do If I Were Satan" about the CES lack of response to the Tanner's work during the 60s and 70s. And of course, the people who did respond were criticized for soiling themselves and creating contention, or doing more harm by publicizing...

Sigh... well there is this from Smoke Signals:

Thomas Builds-the-Fire: "How do we forgive our fathers? Maybe in a dream. Do we forgive our fathers for leaving us too often, or forever, when we were little? Maybe for scaring us with unexpected rage, or making us nervous because there never seemed to be any rage there at all? Do we forgive our fathers for marrying, or not marrying, our mothers? Or divorcing, or not divorcing, our mothers? And shall we forgive them for their excesses of warmth or coldness? Shall we forgive them for pushing, or leaning? For shutting doors or speaking through walls? For never speaking, or never being silent? Do we forgive our fathers in our age, or in theirs? Or in their deaths, saying it to them or not saying it. If we forgive our fathers, what is left?"

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Bethel Park, PA

Edited September 6, 2015 by Kevin Christensen

[VideoGameJunkie]

It was the first time I was ever exposed to anything like it and there were 84 pages of it and to me it had some convincing material. That's what's sad. But basically my testimony is mainly in my rank on these boards which is to love Heavenly Father and Jesus with all our hearts and things will work out okay. My foundation is on my love of God and Jesus and my daily communication with Heavenly Father and the answers I've had to prayers and the times I've felt the spirit like a drug overwhelming my body like I was coming out of my body, during a Priesthood lesson where my Bishop said I was forgiven of my sins. Those are the things I build my foundation on. Love and repentance.

[readstoomuch]

It was the first time I was ever exposed to anything like it and there were 84 pages of it and to me it had some convincing material. That's what's sad. But basically my testimony is mainly in my rank on these boards which is to love Heavenly Father and Jesus with all our hearts and things will work out okay. My foundation is on my love of God and Jesus and my daily communication with Heavenly Father and the answers I've had to prayers and the times I've felt the spirit like a drug overwhelming my body like I was coming out of my body, during a Priesthood lesson where my Bishop said I was forgiven of my sins. Those are the things I build my foundation on. Love and repentance.

So can you just leave it alone for awhile?  There are some partial responses to it as well as responses to other anti-Mormon literature.  There isn`t much new other than packaging it into a condensed form.  It is a lesson in the standard anti-Mormon fare and can be worked through.  

[carbon dioxide]

To be fair, the "virus" analogy works just as well when applied to Mormonism.  Imagine a minister standing before his congregation and saying this:

 

"I would liken Mormonism to a virus.  If a person has never been exposed to this type of virus before, they can get more sick than those who have been exposed to similar viruses.  For people like me who has read enough Mormon material over the years and studied things in more detail, I have built up a certain level of resistance to it.  The people who are most likely to get sick by this virus are people who give it too much credibility and are not patient enough to work through it and have not been exposed to it before.  How do you built up your immune system to this virus?  Get a testimony of the Bible first.  Do the things you should do.  Do as the scriptures say and that is build your foundation on a rock.  Then slowly work yourself through it.  Don't expect to get all the answers in the next week or 6 months.  Be patient and in time you will be able to respond to the disinformation one at a time.  You may not get every issue resolved but a large majority can be solved."

I suppose you could apply it to any situation BUT when a person gets a virus, they get sick.  Does exposure to Mormonism tend to bring someone down?  Do they feel depressed, guilty, stressed?  By their fruits ye shall know them.  Does the CES letter seek to tear down a faith or build it up?  Do Mormons seek to tear down another person faith or seek to add to their faith?

[carbon dioxide]

It was the first time I was ever exposed to anything like it and there were 84 pages of it and to me it had some convincing material.

Of course.  If does not have some convincing material, people would discount it immediately.  It is also what critics like to do.  I had a coworker who left the church, started against the Church and gave to his brother like 100 pages of objections to his brother.  I guess the thinking is that if they overwhelm you with so much stuff that it takes so long to cover it that people will just give up and declare the Church is wrong and the material they gave you is legit.  It is easy to write up a convincing 50 word lie.  Its takes a lot more effort to find the evidence that the statement was a lie. Also is that CES letter really an honest letter.  Would any serious person really write a letter like that to someone and expect them to read and answer all or even half of it.  I would trash any letter of that length as it does not show a person who wants serious discussion. 

 

How I would work it is to say take 10 items and set the rest aside.  Work on those 10 things.  You many not find all the answers to everyone of them.  Set aside those that you did not find the answer to.  Get another 10 and do it again until you get to the end.  Then go back to the ones you could not find.  Perhaps you can answer some of them.  Then when you are done look at what you can't solve.  Then ask if what you don't know is greater than what you do know. 

Edited September 7, 2015 by carbon dioxide

[rodheadlee]

It was the first time I was ever exposed to anything like it and there were 84 pages of it and to me it had some convincing material. That's what's sad. But basically my testimony is mainly in my rank on these boards which is to love Heavenly Father and Jesus with all our hearts and things will work out okay. My foundation is on my love of God and Jesus and my daily communication with Heavenly Father and the answers I've had to prayers and the times I've felt the spirit like a drug overwhelming my body like I was coming out of my body, during a Priesthood lesson where my Bishop said I was forgiven of my sins. Those are the things I build my foundation on. Love and repentance.

Convincing of what? Will Jesus Christ lead you astray? Have you any questions you want answered?

James 1 says:

  5 ^aIf any of you lack ^bwisdom, let him ask of God, that ^cgiveth to all men liberally, and ^dupbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

6 But let him ^aask in ^bfaith, nothing ^cwavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

  7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.

  8 A ^adouble minded man is unstable in all his ways.

 

Perhaps you could balance your reading with 84 pages of Scripture? 84minutes of prayer? If you love Them, I know They will love you back.

  9 Let the brother of ^alow degree rejoice in that he is exalted:

[Teancum]

I suppose you could apply it to any situation BUT when a person gets a virus, they get sick.  Does exposure to Mormonism tend to bring someone down?  Do they feel depressed, guilty, stressed?  By their fruits ye shall know them.  Does the CES letter seek to tear down a faith or build it up?  Do Mormons seek to tear down another person faith or seek to add to their faith?

The act of attempting to convert someone who is in another faith essentially tears down a faith....even though we like to say we are just adding to it. A good Catholic family may be just as disappointed in a family member joining the LDS church as Mormon families are when one of their own falls away or follows another religious faith.

[VideoGameJunkie]

Jesus could never lead me astray but it makes you question just what the heck Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were doing.

[Robert F. Smith]

To be fair, the "virus" analogy works just as well when applied to Mormonism.  Imagine a minister standing before his congregation and saying this:

 

"I would liken Mormonism to a virus.  If a person has never been exposed to this type of virus before, they can get more sick than those who have been exposed to similar viruses.  For people like me who has read enough Mormon material over the years and studied things in more detail, I have built up a certain level of resistance to it.  The people who are most likely to get sick by this virus are people who give it too much credibility and are not patient enough to work through it and have not been exposed to it before.  How do you built up your immune system to this virus?  Get a testimony of the Bible first.  Do the things you should do.  Do as the scriptures say and that is build your foundation on a rock.  Then slowly work yourself through it.  Don't expect to get all the answers in the next week or 6 months.  Be patient and in time you will be able to respond to the disinformation one at a time.  You may not get every issue resolved but a large majority can be solved."

The difference is that Mormons do not go about demonstrating against this or that church or synagogue, nor publishing polemic attacks on these other churches -- Mormon bookstores do not stock anti-Methodist or anti-Catholic diatribes in the form of books and tracts, and there are no Mormon websites or radio networks dedicated to polemic attacks on other religions.  Mormons preach their version of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the open market-place of ideas in a restrained and respectful way.

 

Indeed, some key evangelicals have found it necessary to express their sorrow over the lies told about Mormons and their faith by fellow evangelicals.

 

I am now convinced that we evangelicals have often seriously misrepresented the beliefs and practices of the Mormon community.  Indeed, let me state it bluntly to the LDS folks here this evening, we have sinned against you.  Richard J. Mouw, President, Fuller Theological Seminary* 

 

*  Mouw in Salt Lake Tabernacle, Nov 2004, as quoted by Tom Thorkelsen in Latter-day Trumpet, 5/9 (Oct 2007):6; cf. Richard J. Mouw’s harsh criticism of his fellow evangelicals for “bearing false witness against” Mormons -- in the foreword to F. Beckwith, C. Mosser, and P. Owen, The New Mormon Challenge (Zondervan, 2002), 11.

[Robert F. Smith]

......................................................  

Several decades ago, for instance, Sam Taylor wrote a piece for Sunstone called "What I Would Do If I Were Satan" about the CES lack of response to the Tanner's work during the 60s and 70s. And of course, the people who did respond were criticized for soiling themselves and creating contention, or doing more harm by publicizing...

......................................................

Samuel W. Taylor was a very funny guy, with a uniquely wry take on Mormonism.  We need more guys like him and J. Golden Kimball, to take the edge off and to help us laugh at ourselves.

 

In the end, of course, non-Mormon historian Larry Foster (Georgia Tech) told us that the Tanners had actually strengthened the LDS Church, saying publicly what I, Louis Midgley, and others had been saying in private.  Forcing Mormon intellectuals to come to grips with the powerfully dynamic early Mormon Church was the Tanner gift to the Golden Age of Mormonism -- which is now upon us.  "There must needs be opposition" is not mere empty theory.  It is a glorious fact with dividends.

[Teancum]

The difference is that Mormons do not go about demonstrating against this or that church or synagogue, nor publishing polemic attacks on these other churches -- Mormon bookstores do not stock anti-Methodist or anti-Catholic diatribes in the form of books and tracts, and there are no Mormon websites or radio networks dedicated to polemic attacks on other religions.  Mormons preach their version of the Gospel of Jesus Christ in the open market-place of ideas in a restrained and respectful way.

 

Indeed, some key evangelicals have found it necessary to express their sorrow over the lies told about Mormons and their faith by fellow evangelicals.

 

I am now convinced that we evangelicals have often seriously misrepresented the beliefs and practices of the Mormon community.  Indeed, let me state it bluntly to the LDS folks here this evening, we have sinned against you.  Richard J. Mouw, President, Fuller Theological Seminary* 

 

*  Mouw in Salt Lake Tabernacle, Nov 2004, as quoted by Tom Thorkelsen in Latter-day Trumpet, 5/9 (Oct 2007):6; cf. Richard J. Mouw’s harsh criticism of his fellow evangelicals for “bearing false witness against” Mormons -- in the foreword to F. Beckwith, C. Mosser, and P. Owen, The New Mormon Challenge (Zondervan, 2002), 11.

In general I agree with your summary.

[Robert F. Smith]

The act of attempting to convert someone who is in another faith essentially tears down a faith....even though we like to say we are just adding to it. A good Catholic family may be just as disappointed in a family member joining the LDS church as Mormon families are when one of their own falls away or follows another religious faith.

Yes, my uncle was a Methodist minister, and he used to complain to me that Mormons were "sheep stealers."  Then, of course, he organized the Billy Graham Crusade in Los Angeles -- a high point in his career, by his own estimation.  What should one make of the conversions of the many who came forward at these crusades (which I watched avidly)?  They were non-denominational crusades, and the BGEA wasn't so concerned with which Protestant church one would now attend, only that it be a Bible-believing church.  How many Jews, Catholics, and Mormons were caught up in those crusade conversions?  Was Billy really tearing down a faith, as you put it?  What of the sorrow and disappointment in a family generated by the following another religious faith?  Is this a legitimate criticism?  Or does it condemn all preaching which might effectively convince someone -- including the preaching of St Paul?  Is the free marketplace of ideas merely a means to defraud the unwary?  Is such a critique of Mormons fair and impartial?

[Tacenda]

It was the first time I was ever exposed to anything like it and there were 84 pages of it and to me it had some convincing material. That's what's sad. But basically my testimony is mainly in my rank on these boards which is to love Heavenly Father and Jesus with all our hearts and things will work out okay. My foundation is on my love of God and Jesus and my daily communication with Heavenly Father and the answers I've had to prayers and the times I've felt the spirit like a drug overwhelming my body like I was coming out of my body, during a Priesthood lesson where my Bishop said I was forgiven of my sins. Those are the things I build my foundation on. Love and repentance.

That's usually what I have come back to. Keep coming here, it's helped me so much! Even when reprimanded!

[sheilauk]

Jesus could never lead me astray but it makes you question just what the heck Joseph Smith and Brigham Young were doing.

the best they could with the knowledge and understanding that they had.

[readstoomuch]

Rough Stone Rolling is an honest, moving book about Joseph Smith. He became more believable as a real human with faults. If you are new to church history I like the Story of the Latter Day Saints and The Mormon Experience.