Cern And The Latter Days

[The Nehor]

I think the elephant in the room to me anyway is, that people are judging this guy like critics of Joseph Smith. Yet apologetics pitch in for JS that he wasn't perfect, well that could be said of this guy too. Joseph was in trouble with the law. Once for trying to make money in treasure digging. But I admit my trust level dropped significantly. But what if this guy and JS got it right?

Messing with buried treasure is silly. Taking money and promising to invest it and guarantee good returns and then spending the money is outright theft. It is the difference between a fortune teller at a carnival getting it wrong and a bank absconding with your life savings.

[TheSkepticChristian]

 don't expect the Second Coming until the entire world is like Afganistan. I hope to be dead long before that happens.

 

So you will just sit there and do nothing to help prevent wars?  

 

You don't believe in death, you believe our spirits will never die. 

Edited August 22, 2015 by TheSkepticChristian

[ERayR]

So you will just sit there and do nothing to help prevent wars?  

 

You don't believe in death, you believe our spirits will never die. 

 

Do you have that much power?  How/what are you doing to prevent wars?

[thesometimesaint]

Some science should not be tampered with. Cross speciation of a human and a chimp has obvious moral implications.

But what about selecting favorable genes for children. Those who have money could afford it and those who don't, well they will fall behind. The movie "Gatica" (spelling?) might not be that far off.

Right now our population is harversting body parts from fetuses in the name of science and people are OK with it, and even promote it.

It might be better to be destroyed by a super collider than lose a soul in other forms of science.

 

There is no need for cross speciation of humans and chimps. It is highly unlikely to produce a viable offspring. But doing basic genetic research on both has already yielded fantastic results.

 

Without body parts medical science would still be in the Dark Ages. BTW Polio vaccine was developed from experimentation on human fetuses.  

 

What would you do just throw them in the trash can?

 

With the LHC the amounts of matter used couldn't destroy a tin can let alone anything bigger. 

Edited August 23, 2015 by thesometimesaint

[filovirus]

There is no need for cross speciation of humans and chimps. It is highly unlikely to produce a viable offspring. But doing basic genetic research on both has already yielded fantastic results.

 

Without body parts medical science would still be in the Dark Ages. BTW Polio vaccine was developed from experimentation on human fetuses.  

 

What would you do just throw them in the trash can?

 

With the LHC the amounts of matter used couldn't destroy a tin can let alone anything bigger.

But now we have in our society an organization suggesting abortions to pregnant mothers so fetal organs can be harvested, all in the name of science. Planned Parenthood as the prime example. I won't support that! Science gave us the Tuskegee experiments as well. Sorry, I won't support that type of science either, regardless of what it taught us about syphilis and other diseases. Some things we humans do for "science" is sickening.

[The Nehor]

So you will just sit there and do nothing to help prevent wars?  

 

You don't believe in death, you believe our spirits will never die. 

 

It is amazing how many people qualify "panicking on the internet" as doing something. Conspiracy theorists mock others for not doing anything when what they do is read and write blogs and reinforce their delusions with each other. If I honestly thought the Illuminati was real I would think you would do something other then talk about it.

 

I am not a diplomat. I do not have the skillset. I will do what I can to prevent wars but that is relatively little.

[The Nehor]

But now we have in our society an organization suggesting abortions to pregnant mothers so fetal organs can be harvested, all in the name of science. Planned Parenthood as the prime example. I won't support that! Science gave us the Tuskegee experiments as well. Sorry, I won't support that type of science either, regardless of what it taught us about syphilis and other diseases. Some things we humans do for "science" is sickening.

 

There are unethical studies. The Nazis and the Japanese of World War II are two notable groups guilty of horrific experiments done in the name of "science" (more realistically it was to further their war effort). Tuskegee was an ethical nightmare from the start when participants were not informed of the disease they had and became horrific nightmare when they decided not to treat syphilis once treatment was found. As to planned parenthood yes, they collect fetal material for scientific study. I don't think planned parenthood has as a goal convincing women to get abortions specifically for that purpose. It is utilitarianism.

 

Scientific progress involves calculated risks but many dehumanize others in their quest for knowledge and that needs to be guarded against. CERN does not have that problem.

[thesometimesaint]

But now we have in our society an organization suggesting abortions to pregnant mothers so fetal organs can be harvested, all in the name of science. Planned Parenthood as the prime example. I won't support that! Science gave us the Tuskegee experiments as well. Sorry, I won't support that type of science either, regardless of what it taught us about syphilis and other diseases. Some things we humans do for "science" is sickening.

 

NO WE DON'T. Less than 3% of Planned Parenthood is involved in abortion AFTER the woman has already decided to abort.

 

Yes; the Tuskegee experiments were terrible and immoral. Primarily because they were done without Informed Consent.

 

 I don't know how old you are but I remember well the summers of dread. When Polio killed and.maimed thousands of children. Then simply refuse to have any of the benefits of modern science.

[The Nehor]

NO WE DON'T. Less than 3% of Planned Parenthood is involved in abortion AFTER the woman has already decided to abort.

 

Yes; the Tuskegee experiments were terrible and immoral. Primarily because they were done without Informed Consent.

 

 I don't know how old you are but I remember well the summers of dread. When Polio killed and.maimed thousands of children. Then simply refuse to have any of the benefits of modern science.

 

We eradicated polio but now for some reason we decided to bring it back. Not sure what we are up to.

[thesometimesaint]

We eradicated polio but now for some reason we decided to bring it back. Not sure what we are up to.

 

We have almost eradicated polio in the US. Unfortunately the virus still exists in Africa and the Middle East, just waiting for people to stop getting vaccinated against it.

SEE http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/polio/dis-faqs.htm

[Calm]

NO WE DON'T. Less than 3% of Planned Parenthood is involved in abortion AFTER the woman has already decided to abort....

 

I am not really following this in detail, but are the women fully informed with detailed descriptions on what the procedures are and then do they give their informed permission for what is done with the remains?

"I don't know how old you are but I remember well the summers of dread. When Polio killed and.maimed thousands of children. Then simply refuse to have any of the benefits of modern science."

So dreadful, vaccines were tested prematurely. Out of my neighbour's first grade class of 25 or so, only 4 were still living 3 years later and he was the only one not in a wheelchair. So much for the benefits of modern science for that class of 6 year olds.

New technology should be approached with care even when the need is great. (caution borne out of greed is another evil)

[filovirus]

I'm pretty sure Salk developed his vaccine using HeLa cells, not embryonic stem cells or other types of embryonic cells. At least that's what I learned in my micro classes in college. Am I wrong?

[thesometimesaint]

I am not really following this in detail, but are the women fully informed with detailed descriptions on what the procedures are and then do they give their informed permission for what is done with the remains?

"I don't know how old you are but I remember well the summers of dread. When Polio killed and.maimed thousands of children. Then simply refuse to have any of the benefits of modern science."

So dreadful, vaccines were tested prematurely. Out of my neighbour's first grade class of 25 or so, only 4 were still living 3 years later and he was the only one not in a wheelchair. So much for the benefits of modern science for that class of 6 year olds.

New technology should be approached with care even when the need is great. (caution borne out of greed is another evil)

 

A D&C is the most common type of medical abortion procedure done,and is likely done in the first trimester.

 

CFR

SEE http://www.everydayhealth.com/news/salk-polio-vaccine-medical-miracle-turns-sixty/

 

I never said we shouldn't approach all science with care. It is nearly always a cost benefit analysis. However lets make sure that we include all the costs of inaction too.

Jonas Salk donated for free his vaccine.

[thesometimesaint]

I'm pretty sure Salk developed his vaccine using HeLa cells, not embryonic stem cells or other types of embryonic cells. At least that's what I learned in my micro classes in college. Am I wrong?

 

SEE http://www.usnews.com/news/science/news/articles/2015/07/29/human-fetal-tissue-long-used-for-variety-of-medical-studies

[Calm]

I never said we shouldn't approach all science with care. It is nearly always a cost benefit analysis. However lets make sure that we include all the costs of inaction too.

Jonas Salk donated for free his vaccine.

So you think it is okay to experiment on children just as long as enough more are saved and they aren't having to pay to get killed by premature testing? How many more more need to be saved than killed for it to be worth it?

Somehow I doubt that made the families of those 6 year olds okay with what it cost them.

Edited August 24, 2015 by calmoriah

[The Nehor]

So you think it is okay to experiment on children just as long as enough more are saved and they aren't having to pay to get killed by premature testing? How many more more need to be saved than killed for it to be worth it?

Somehow I doubt that made the families of those 6 year olds okay with what it cost them.

I assume you are referring to the Cutter vaccine. If so you are not being fair. That wasn't experimentation. One of the vaccine manufacturers created a faulty vaccine when they did not deactivate the virus as well as the other manufacturers did and there was almost no government oversight (that error caused that to change). It was a tragic mistake. No one injected people just to see what would happen.

Ironically the public backlash led to the creation of an oral vaccine that was less safe then the correct injected vaccine before we went back to the vaccine in use now.

[Calm]

I assume you are referring to the Cutter vaccine. If so you are not being fair. That wasn't experimentation. One of the vaccine manufacturers created a faulty vaccine when they did not deactivate the virus as well as the other manufacturers did and there was almost no government oversight (that error caused that to change). It was a tragic mistake. No one injected people just to see what would happen.

Ironically the public backlash led to the creation of an oral vaccine that was less safe then the correct injected vaccine before we went back to the vaccine in use now.

Go to know, his information was spotty. Fits what he does know.

[thesometimesaint]

So you think it is okay to experiment on children just as long as enough more are saved and they aren't having to pay to get killed by premature testing? How many more more need to be saved than killed for it to be worth it?

Somehow I doubt that made the families of those 6 year olds okay with what it cost them.

 

Yes it is OK to experiment on children under very controlled conditions, and with parental consent to treat. Childhood leukemia was a real killer of children. Now it is largely controllable. Without experiments on them do we just let them die?

 

Every year a certain number of people will die from taking aspirin in the recommended dosage. Do we then outlaw aspirin because someone will die? I'm sure their families were deeply saddened by their deaths.

[Stargazer]

I did not watch this video.  I can tell from the post that it would be a waste of time.  Utter nonsense.

 

You know, I had a family member expressing fear that the LHC would pop out a black hole and it would then suck the earth into it.  He had totally bought into the fear-mongering that was going on about the startup at CERN's LHC.  I must have spent an entire hour trying to debunk this nonsense in his mind, but I finally succeeded.

 

Assume that LHC produces a black hole.  I assume it's possible.  Why not?  What happens?  Not a thing.  Black holes can be various sizes.  How much matter is the LHC splatting together?  Round and round it goes and suddenly it slams into a target made of gold foil.  The mass being thrown around and collided is very much less than a milligram.  What happens if a milligram mass black hole forms?  It immediately evaporates.  This is because black holes do actually emit energy -- it's called Hawking Radiation -- as a quantum effect.  All black holes will eventually evaporate, given enough time.  For holes the size of galaxies, this time is enormous, like octillions of years.  For much smaller black holes, the evaporation time is much shorter. 

 

A small black hole with a mass of 251 tons will evaporate in only 1 second.  A hole with only a milligram will evaporate in a few nanoseconds.  And the energy that gets tossed out in the evaporation cannot be more than how much energy was used to form the hole in the first place.  So we get a big spark as it happens.

 

The other aspect of this is even if we have a sizable black hole, say a billion tons, the hole's event horizon is still quite small in diameter.  Remember the Star Trek reboot movie?  They created a fictional substance called "Red Matter" that turned into a black hole upon contact with normal matter.  Remember how a single drop of Red Matter caused the entire planet of Vulcan to be sucked into a singularity?  UTTER POPPYCOCK.  I love that movie, but that was the most ridiculous premise ever imagined for a movie. 

 

Hey, guess what?  There's one heck of an enormous black hole at the enter of the Andromeda Galaxy.  It is estimated to have the mass of 200,000,000 suns.  Two hundred million solar masses!  If a singularity or a black hole the size of a water droplet could suck the planet Vulcan into it inside of a few seconds, then Andromeda's black hole should have sucked every star in that galaxy into it millions of years ago!  Maybe it did, and we just haven't seen it?  Baloney.  The Andromeda Galaxy is billions of years old.

 

The point is, if you have a black hole whose event horizon is only a couple millimeters across, there is no way you can cram the mass of an entire planet into it in any reasonable time.  And it would have evaporated almost instantly anyway.

 

The largest black hole that LHC can produce is a few milligrams, will last a few nanoseconds, and its event horizon will only be a few nanometers across.  You could swallow one of those and it wouldn't hurt you.  Take two aspirin and call me in the morning.  Next?

Edited August 25, 2015 by Stargazer

[Meadowchik]

No I didn't, thank you. The only thing I can't accept is the CERN deal. Why isn't the world putting a stop to this, it's every bit as worrisome as nuclear bombs.

CERN is awesome and I'm all for it!

[ERayR]

 

What happens if a milligram mass black hole forms?  It immediately evaporates.  This is because black holes

The largest black hole that LHC can produce is a few milligrams, will last a few nanoseconds, and its event horizon will only be a few nanometers across.  You could swallow one of those and it wouldn't hurt you.  Take two aspirin and call me in the morning.  Next?

 

I certainly hope so but then again nobody has ever done it so we are really just guessing.

[ttribe]

I certainly hope so but then again nobody has ever done it so we are really just guessing.

 

I suspect we are doing more than "guessing," if we have at least a rudimentary understanding of the laws of physics.

[ERayR]

I suspect we are doing more than "guessing," if we have at least a rudimentary understanding of the laws of physics.

 

Until it is done it is but a guess.  A guess with high probability backed up by scientific data but a guess nevertheless.

[ttribe]

Until it is done it is but a guess.  A guess with high probability backed up by scientific data but a guess nevertheless.

 

I suppose you and I have very different interpretations of what the word "guess" means.

[The Nehor]

I certainly hope so but then again nobody has ever done it so we are really just guessing.

 

In the same sense that it is possible to guess that the trees will not all spontaneously turn into Ents tomorrow.